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Mrs. Peel

Home Defense Question... Lots of Windows, Close Neighbors

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This is a hypothetical question... but only hypothetical in that I'm not shopping for anything quite yet. The concern is real... so I'd like to "crowd source" an answer from you experienced smarty pants out there! 

 

How much should the layout of a house and neighborhood affect the choice of home defense firearm? The thought of shooting a gun at an intruder is scary enough, but I am also very concerned about a bullet missing and hitting a neighbor. I own an 1860s Victorian... the master bedroom has 6 tall windows distributed on 3 walls. The bedroom entry door is also paned glass and in the hallway immediately beyond that door is yet another large window. No exaggeration, if I were standing near the closet where the gun would be stored, almost any direction I'd be shooting in to hit an intruder is mostly single-paned glass (there's just enough solid, plaster wall to hold up the damn ceiling, LOL). 

 

Add to that, all the houses have narrow side yards and shallow front yards. (From my front yard, I could probably toss a Frisbee into 5 other yards). It's.. um... that cozy! And the other houses are loaded with their own big, single-paned windows. Plus, people sit on their front porches late at night on summer evenings, stroll down the sidewalks with strollers and pets, etc.... all quite Normal Rockwell, but doesn't that density add a lot of risk?

 

I didn't have any particular interest (beyond idle curiosity) in trying out a shotgun, but I'm starting to wonder if a shotgun is the only safe choice for this unique situation...? I don't have a clue really about ballistics, but I'm guessing even a hollow point bullet would slice through a couple of single-paned windows like butter, without expanding and without losing much force, am I right? Whereas... would shot pellets lose most of their velocity by the time they passed through a couple of glass windows and traveled 30-40+ ft? Any insights on this would be very appreciated:girlsmile: 

 

Oh, and in case you're naively thinking that the close proximity should help to keep everyone safe... that's what I thought too when I picked out the house... only to have one of my female neighbors stabbed to death by a stranger a year or so after I moved in. Another fantasy rudely shattered.

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How much should the layout of a house and neighborhood affect the choice of home defense firearm? The thought of shooting a gun at an intruder is scary enough, but I am also very concerned about a bullet missing and hitting a neighbor. 

 

Well, a lot depends on how much you like or dislike the neighbor...

 

A shotgun may be a reasonable choice for the scenario you describe.    Glaser safety slugs in a handgun would be another option (especially in a revolver...it would get expensive to shoot enough in a semiauto to convince oneself that they cycle with absolute reliability).

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I'm not the person to talk here, I know nothing of these things, but a AR with the right ammo may be better than any other option. That said nothing that will stop an intruder in his tracks won't go through a windowpane, across the street, and through your neighbors window. Your job is to choose a platform that will protect your family best while reducing the risk of over penetration as best as possible. If your families lives are in danger you should take that shot to protect yourself even if it is not 1000 percent certain that there won't be a stray bullet.  :dontknow: Anyhow those are my thoughts.

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We should talk on the phone.  WAY too much to go over in this thread.  Interestingly enough, I ventured a business plan almost a decade ago to go into folks' homes and teach them how and where to shoot bad guys, and posted it here only to be met with Keyboard Commando dipshitism and challenges from "Internet Experts".  My plan called for a full review ON -SITE to evaluate threats, establish angles, use furniture as cover, etc.  Now I have only 45 years behind the trigger instead of 35.  PM me to set-up a business call so we can chat.  Training by standing in a shooting port at a commercial range firing at a piece of paper that stands still only gives you confidence in the mechanics of operation of the defensive tool, NOT the knowledge or mindset you're looking for :) .  I have friends that I can call upon should the need arise for a tour.  All experts in their respective specialties.

 

Rosey 

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What Smokin' 50 said. An actual analysis of where you are most likely to be in the house on average, plus where the intruders are likely to enter from and when, plus the interior layout of your home (one or two story?) yields oodles of tactical information for planning ahead. (Oodles: that's a professional tactical word.)

 

For your weapon selection I wouldn't overlook a 20 gauge shotgun, either semi-auto or pump. Easier recoil, plenty of stopping power, possibly lighter weight and maneuverability. For example, a Mossberg 500. As far as bullet travel, a shot round will travel (on average) less than anything else, should a round escape the walls of your residence. Slugs of course would be a different story, and not my choice.

 

There's also the option of taking the NRA Personal Protection Inside The Home course.

 

Good luck there Emma. And kudos for thinking ahead.

 

Addendum: Of course if you'd like to make a fashion statement, there's this. Look as good as you shoot dahling.

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I would agree with Smokin50. Except, you (I assume) are not a trained and experienced gun fighter.The chances of you getting at your weapon, determining a safe shot and actually pulling it off while in a state of terror are slim to none. The idea of birdshot or safety slugs is to minimize collateral damage in such an incident. It helps with the safe shot equation.Any hunter will tell you how quick the chance for a shot goes to hell.  Anyone you pull the trigger on is likely going out the closest exit after the first shot unless you drop them. Our job in any SD situation is to stop the threat. The BG diving out the door or window is still stopping the threat. Dont fall into the idea that you will drop a BG and be the hero on the news. I keep a can of bear spray handy. Alarm, dog, bear spray or gun is my line of defense. This is my $0.02 only, and its worth every dime you paid for it.

Its worth your while to talk with someone like SMOKIN50. Especially if they are offering.

@SMOKIN50- is that offer open to anyone?

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Enjoying all of the great feedback... you folks do NOT disappoint...

 

- Smokin & Griz - sent you PMs. Thanks! 

 

- S-Cat - your input is more than welcome. We are all learning every day and I can already tell you know more than me!

 

- I didn't even know about safety slugs - thank you,10x. I read up on them already. Sheesh... dizzying gadgetry w/this hobby!

 

- bhunted and sota - damn, if I could afford it, I would just hire you 2 as my badass bodyguards... I like your "take no prisoners" attitude.

 

- Doll - Your post reminded me I haven't taken any training but the basic pistol class. Now that I'm shooting regularly, I should really make formal training an ongoing thing. (As for the splatter-paint shotgun - very cute, but won't a BG start laughing at me? It's not very... um... intimidating).

 

- Son of Sam - I burst out laughing at your email.... you are correct, sir... For the record...NO! Heaven's, no... I am not a "gun fighter". I'm a creampuff... a newbie who shoots a .22 at bulls eye targets. Fortunately, I'm sensible enough to have NO delusions of grandeur, NO hero fantasies of gunning down a BG .... NONE!  In fact, my main emphasis has been adding improvements that make my house a less appealing target (I removed tall shrubs blocking the porch, added landscape and motion detector lighting to my dark yard and a few other things. Those efforts will continue over time as money allows. I have several other things I'd like to improve in the yard and house). I tend to be pragmatic, so it seems to me that doing all that I can to avoid a HD situation in the first place is the best defense of all. 

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Ms Peel,

 

Take Griz and/or Smokin .50 up on their offers. Get trained first. All self defense, especially home defense, is much more about software than hardware.

 

Learn your weapon system and understand what the ammo you choose can, and can't, do. Choose the platform you perform the best with, and build a layered defense around it: Outside lights, cameras, secure doors and windows, alarm, dog, escape plan, fight.

 

Remember, the best gunfight is the one you can safely avoid.

 

But, if you can't avoid it, you need to win decisively and quickly - with no hesitation.

 

Do not plan on the simple sound of a gunshot to scare off a determined criminal. There are legit bad dudes out there. Most of them live a life you can not imagine. You are likely not the first person to point a gun, or even shoot at them. You may not even be the first person to hit them. You don't know what they have to lose or what they are capable of.

 

And please, for the love of God and all his children, do not use birdshot, Glaser Safety rounds, or any of that boutique ammo. Do your research and buy quality ammo that has a reputation for stopping fights. Look at what your local PD uses, they are facing a lot of the questions you are raising and chose their ammo accordingly.

 

I have heard good stories about shootings where a shooter-homeowner was asked why they chose a specific ammo type by a attorney on the opposite side of the case. Being able to say "that's what my local PD uses" essentially shut down that entire line of questioning.

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I forgot to add, my primary HD gun is an AR. I have a pistol (Glock 35) in a safe next to the bed, but the plan is for the AR in the safe in the corner to be primary. I shoot it better than any handgun, so I am less likely to miss - which is a very good thing when FISHing, as the bad guy is your safe backstop.

 

If all you have is a pistol, by all means used it. Become proficient with it, but know it's virtues and its limitations. I would not feel bad about using a pistol for HD. I just prefer my rifle.

There is no ammo out there that will reliably stop an attacker and not penetrate walls. But, contrary to what most believe, ballistically AR ammo designed for gun fighting retains less energy after passing through most modern construction materials used in the US than other options.

Pistol and shotgun ammo in a bullet design/caliber suitable to incapacitate humans penetrate further and retain more energy through Sheetrock, wood and siding.

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To reinforce what HE said, gunfighting is about 5% shooting skill and hardware and 95% mental awareness and preparedness.

 

 

Hope I got that right. It's Jeff Cooper on Mental Conditioning for Combat on You Tube. 28 minutes but well worth the watch.

 

I have some experiences to share for those advocating birds hot for SD.

 

Attempted suicide with a 12 ga. The guy's hand slipped and instead of shooting himself in the chest he hit his shoulder with a load of #4 birds hot (IIRC). Contact shot. Very few pellets made it to his shoulder blade and those that did stopped there. He almost did himself in as he took out about an inch of his brachial artery but he didn't die.

 

Morale of the story. Birdshot has shallow penetration. You might stop the guy but more likely just make him bleed a lot. BG will still have time to hurt you.

 

LE executing warrant on a drug lab in a warehouse. BG "guard" inside the metal door armed with a sawed off double barrel loaded with birdshot. Cops are having a hard time knocking down the door. BG decides he's going to shoot cops through door. Bang! Shot hits door, chips the paint, and enough shot richoceted to mess up the shooters face making him drop the gun. He got 30 years on a plea deal.

 

Think of not only metal but glass, plastic, and other surfaces birdshot can ricochet off in your house. Buckshot can ricochet too but will expend a lot of its energy trying to penetrate what it hits.

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To reinforce what HE said, gunfighting is about 5% shooting skill and hardware and 95% mental awareness and preparedness.

 

 

Hope I got that right. It's Jeff Cooper on Mental Conditioning for Combat on You Tube. 28 minutes but well worth the watch.

 

I have some experiences to share for those advocating birds hot for SD.

 

Attempted suicide with a 12 ga. The guy's hand slipped and instead of shooting himself in the chest he hit his shoulder with a load of #4 birds hot (IIRC). Contact shot. Very few pellets made it to his shoulder blade and those that did stopped there. He almost did himself in as he took out about an inch of his brachial artery but he didn't die.

 

Morale of the story. Birdshot has shallow penetration. You might stop the guy but more likely just make him bleed a lot. BG will still have time to hurt you.

 

LE executing warrant on a drug lab in a warehouse. BG "guard" inside the metal door armed with a sawed off double barrel loaded with birdshot. Cops are having a hard time knocking down the door. BG decides he's going to shoot cops through door. Bang! Shot hits door, chips the paint, and enough shot richoceted to mess up the shooters face making him drop the gun. He got 30 years on a plea deal.

 

Think of not only metal but glass, plastic, and other surfaces birdshot can ricochet off in your house. Buckshot can ricochet too but will expend a lot of its energy trying to penetrate what it hits.

Griz, I can't like this enough!  This short video would be worth a $200 day-long class by itself in today's environment!  I never made it to GunSite, but I have a hand-me-down GunSite leather holster for my .45's that my brother gave me 20 years ago that I still use.  Cooper was the epitome of a Training Instructor.  I use his Color Code System every day of my life.  I've avoided being in White in public for so long I can't remember deciding to be in Yellow, it's just AUTOMATIC.  Like crossing the street if I feel even the slightest chance of an upcoming threat.  Mental is 90%, skill at putting rounds into a BG is 10%.  Those that don't understand this often have "deer in the headlights" response :) .

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I'd definitely use an AR15 or another rifle in .223/5.56 with soft point or other appropriate ammo.  

 

A shotgun would probably be the WORST option, as buckshot/slugs will go through several walls and glass very easily, and continue moving through due to mass.  I do NOT recommend birdshot at ALL - there's a reason why they call it BIRD shot.  After hitting a Pheasant with a full load of #6 birdshot, and seeing it still fly and having to take a followup shot (albeit at ~30 yards), there's just too much energy lost for me to rely on it for personal defense.

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My AR is my primary HD gun as well but its loaded with m193. After watching a ton of videos on how far 9mm penetrates i decided against it.... i wish the ATF tests included 45acp as i shoot the best with my 1911

 

Will definitely need to look into that 64gr SP ammo!

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Couple of points.

Plaster is way more dense then sheet rock. And I'll add that your ballon framed homes sheathing is 3/4 or better. Add veneer to that, brick or stone?

What are you comfortable with. I think everybody here will agree. If your not comfortable you will not train with this firearm.

 

Other than that, I've always thought my pistol was to get to my long gun. Currently a shotgun, soon an ar.

 

And why keep it in the closet?

 

And as Others have said , detour, prevent, prevent,prevent, then fight

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And thanks to the recent posters as well. I'm glad I posed the question... because I'm already realizing I have a major... ummm...  readiness problem. (Of course, I'm a person who has a "catch and release" policy for ladybugs that enter the house.... soooo, I guess that speaks volumes about my nature. A rescuer, not a destroyer).

 

I mentioned this issue to my older brother, and his immediate, vehement response was: Worry less about the goddamn neighbors and more about yourself. If something is happening in your house that's so bad you need to grab a gun, you need to focus 100% on destroying the threat.  Mind you, my brother is the sweetest, most easy-going guy you'd ever meet...and he's never held a gun in his life. Frankly, I was startled by his response. Yet, it meshes with what High Exposure said... and several others too. I admit, that kind of aggressive thinking feels so foreign to me. Must be "man-think"?? LOL. I can see I have work to do.

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And thanks to the recent posters as well. I'm glad I posed the question... because I'm already realizing I have a major... ummm...  readiness problem. (Of course, I'm a person who has a "catch and release" policy for ladybugs that enter the house.... soooo, I guess that speaks volumes about my nature. A rescuer, not a destroyer).

 

I mentioned this issue to my older brother, and his immediate, vehement response was: Worry less about the goddamn neighbors and more about yourself. If something is happening in your house that's so bad you need to grab a gun, you need to focus 100% on destroying the threat.  Mind you, my brother is the sweetest, most easy-going guy you'd ever meet...and he's never held a gun in his life. Frankly, I was startled by his response. Yet, it meshes with what High Exposure said... and several others too. I admit, that kind of aggressive thinking feels so foreign to me. Must be "man-think"?? LOL. I can see I have work to do.

I just watched the video GRIZ linked. Contrary to general perception, Col Jeff Cooper describes, with an example, on how you become a "rescuer and less aggressive" with proper mental conditioning and preparation.  And that calm and controlled posture result in better outcome for everyone involved. 

 

@GRIZ, thanks, awesome video link. 

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Ha! The video is on my calendar for tomorrow's lunchtime viewing. Ought to be interesting! Just as a side note... for some reason, I'm utterly convinced I could shoot without hesitation to protect a loved one... but not necessarily to protect myself. And since I live alone.... ruh-roh! 

 

Is that freakin' weird? Am I the only one with that dilemma? Eeegads... this is dredging up all kinds of vexing issues of self-worth, self-identify, etc. I might need therapy by the time I'm done, LOL. Maybe I'm not glad I posed the question.  :facepalm:

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Ha! The video is on my calendar for tomorrow's lunchtime viewing. Ought to be interesting! Just as a side note... for some reason, I'm utterly convinced I could shoot without hesitation to protect a loved one... but not necessarily to protect myself. And since I live alone.... ruh-roh! 

 

Is that freakin' weird? I'm I the only one with that dilemma? Eeegads... this is dredging up all kinds of vexing issues of self-worth, self-identify, etc. I might need therapy by the time I'm done, LOL. Maybe I'm not glad I posed the question.  :facepalm:

All the more reason to have that discussion with folks who offered help here and videos and possible training. 

 

After watching that video and few others, I remember how I couldn't remember the time leading up to and shortly after THE  ONE TIME I got mugged right around the corner from a BUSY street, few feet from my (then) house.  I dont know the technical term, but just blanked out.

 

I see what HE meant by "more of software than hardware". 

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And thanks to the recent posters as well. I'm glad I posed the question... because I'm already realizing I have a major... ummm...  readiness problem. (Of course, I'm a person who has a "catch and release" policy for ladybugs that enter the house.... soooo, I guess that speaks volumes about my nature. A rescuer, not a destroyer).

 

I mentioned this issue to my older brother, and his immediate, vehement response was: Worry less about the goddamn neighbors and more about yourself. If something is happening in your house that's so bad you need to grab a gun, you need to focus 100% on destroying the threat.  Mind you, my brother is the sweetest, most easy-going guy you'd ever meet...and he's never held a gun in his life. Frankly, I was startled by his response. Yet, it meshes with what High Exposure said... and several others too. I admit, that kind of aggressive thinking feels so foreign to me. Must be "man-think"?? LOL. I can see I have work to do.

Your brother gave you the best advice ever.

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And thanks to the recent posters as well. I'm glad I posed the question... because I'm already realizing I have a major... ummm... readiness problem. (Of course, I'm a person who has a "catch and release" policy for ladybugs that enter the house.... soooo, I guess that speaks volumes about my nature. A rescuer, not a destroyer).

 

I mentioned this issue to my older brother, and his immediate, vehement response was: Worry less about the goddamn neighbors and more about yourself. If something is happening in your house that's so bad you need to grab a gun, you need to focus 100% on destroying the threat. Mind you, my brother is the sweetest, most easy-going guy you'd ever meet...and he's never held a gun in his life. Frankly, I was startled by his response. Yet, it meshes with what High Exposure said... and several others too. I admit, that kind of aggressive thinking feels so foreign to me. Must be "man-think"?? LOL. I can see I have work to do.

I don't kill insects in my house either (except spiders. F spiders).

 

I am polite and friendly to everyone I meet, until given a reason not to be. That doesn't mean I can't flip the switch if I, or someone I care about or I am responsible for, is in danger. The hard part is recognizing the danger in enough time to do something about it. Preferably, avoid the fight. Just walk away.

 

If you can't avoid it - fight like the third monkey trying to get on the Ark.

 

It isn't "man think". It is being a realist. I know women and men that refuse to be a victim. They will fight. I also know men and women that have actually said to me out loud, "I would rather die than use violence on another human being". Now, I don't understand that at all, but I do accept that at the end of the day, everyone has to lay their heads down on their own pillow and fall asleep with their own thoughts in their head. You have to live your life accordingly so you can sleep at night. More power to them and I hope they are never faced with violence.

 

I feel it is about personal responsibility. There is nothing wrong with protecting yourself. Think of it this way, someone that carries a gun is, at their very core, a rescuer and not a destroyer.

 

I carry a gun off duty to rescue myself and those I care about from applicable danger. I carry a gun at work to rescue those I am responsible for from dire situations. I won't create the need to use force, but I won't shy from it if it is necessary. The "bad guy" gets the vote on what happens next. They created the situation. They are the destroyers.

 

Be Momma Bear.

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More of a question (not trying to hi-jack the thread) than advice. Per my other post I have some predisposed ideas about home defense and defensive layers. I am under the idea that speed and violence of response/attack is key to victory. So if my alarm goes off in the middle of the night I have pre-conditioned my response to be as fast as possible and as violent as possible to the intruder. This is not necessarily using a firearm.

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You do realize that spiders are your best allies against other insect pests right?

 

I don't kill insects in my house either (except spiders. F spiders).

 

I am polite and friendly to everyone I meet, until given a reason not to be. That doesn't mean I can't flip the switch if I, or someone I care about or I am responsible for, is in danger. The hard part is recognizing the danger in enough time to do something about it. Preferably, avoid the fight. Just walk away. If you can't avoid it - fight like the third monkey trying to get on the Ark.

 

It isn't "man think". It is being a realist. I know women and men that refuse to be a victim. They will fight. I also know men and women that have actually said to me out loud, "I would rather die than use violence on another human being". Now, I don't understand that at all, but I do accept that at the end of the day, everyone has to lay their heads down on their own pillow and fall asleep with their own thoughts in their head. You have to love your life accordingly so you can sleep at night. More power to them and I hoe they are never faced with violence.

 

Personally, I feel it is about personal responsibility. There is nothing wrong with protecting yourself. Think of it this way, someone that carries a gun is, at their very core, a rescuer. Not a destroyer. I carry a gun off duty to rescue myself and those I care about from applicable danger. I carry a gun at work to rescue those I am responsible for from dire situations. I won't create the need to use force, but I won't shy from it if it is necessary. The "bad guy" gets the vote on what happens next. They created the situation. They are the destroyers.

 

Be Momma Bear.

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