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BryanRT360

local boy tries to build ar 15

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But its not finished. So the threshold has not been crossed. Until the threshold has been crossed, its a block of metal. Without a defined level of completion in the law, anyone at any level of completion, including zero, could be subject to being charged. Based on your position, because I have a milling machine, blocks of metal and AR15 blueprints I should be subject to conviction?

 

I think you way overestimate the difficulty in producing a lower. Go take a look at the youtube video of the guy that made a lower out of a cut up and glued together cutting board. So you cant have it that position of a cutting board and a blueprint is a crime. If the act is actually perpetrated by a prohibited person or in a state its illegal to do so, then that's a different story.

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But its not finished. So the threshold has not been crossed. Until the threshold has been crossed, its a block of metal. Without a defined level of completion in the law, anyone at any level of completion, including zero, could be subject to being charged. Based on your position, because I have a milling machine, blocks of metal and AR15 blueprints I should be subject to conviction?

 

I think you way overestimate the difficulty in producing a lower. Go take a look at the youtube video of the guy that made a lower out of a cut up and glued together cutting board. So you cant have it that position of a cutting board and a blueprint is a crime. If the act is actually perpetrated by a prohibited person or in a state its illegal to do so, then that's a different story.

I said this is not a block of metal, a milling machine, and prints. If you don't know how to use a milling machine what can you do? This is a 80% and a jig. A person with minimal skills can turn it into a working lower.

 

This wannabe gang banger has committed a felony and is underage. No defense to that.

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It's obvious to me that this kid is a problem that needs to be dealt with for any number of reasons. It's also obvious to me that because this is NJ you are basically f*cked, your second amendment rights that are guaranteed to you by the US Constitution don't apply here...argue the details all you want.

 

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It's obvious to me that this kid is a problem that needs to be dealt with for any number of reasons. It's also obvious to me that because this is NJ you are basically f*cked, your second amendment rights that are guaranteed to you by the US Constitution don't apply here...argue the details all you want.

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This is a 16 year old felon that really doesn't give a crap about Constitutional Rights.

 

You blow this away as "arguing the details". The details are the law and the Constitution.

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So your threshold of prosecution is skill level? Again, by your position, if I had an 80% lower, then I should be prosecuted/convicted because I COULD complete it while in NJ. It would be so much easier for me than the guy with a jig. I don't even need the jig, I just need to turn a couple dials! There is no law against owning an 80% lower. There is no law against owning tools. There is no law against being in possession of both. There is only a law against completing it in NJ unless you are a type 7 FFL. There is no law against owning a car that can go 200MPH. There is a law against going 200 on public roads. But we don't convict everyone that has a Lambo because they COULD go 200 on public roads. We only convict them if they actually do it. This kid indeed looks like someone deserving of the grey bar hotel for a number of reasons, but if that lower has not been worked on and is an 80% lower, possession of a firearm wont be one of them. And if I am right and that's the conclusion the prosecutor comes to, I would agree with it, even for this scumbag. Laws and their interpretations that leave way to much latitude lend themselves to be misused by those in the system with an agenda. Today a kid that is bad but tomorrow may be the law abiding citizen planning to move out of Jersey some day and just bought the stuff ahead of time that caught an anti gun prosecutor.

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Griz is right

18 for long 21 for hand

That's federal

 

The question rilly is, is he now a prohibited person after he brought the handgun to school.....

The last time.

Those ages are for purchase.  There is no Federal law against owning a long gun, Federal law states that you must be at least 18 to own a handgun.  Under Federal law FFL's cannot sell a handgun to someone under 21, but a non-FFL can sell a handgun to someone who is at least 18.

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Shane, the two basic elements of a crime are a guilty act (possession of all the parts including a 80% lower and the jig) and the intent or ability or as you say it the skill.

 

There are laws against owning tools in some circumstances. If you have. If you have boltcutters, a hammer, hacksaw, and pry bar most times they are just tools. If you have them behind a jewelry store at 3 am they become burglar tools.

 

The final interpretation of the law is left up to a jury. That's what the Constitution says.

 

This is not a kid who broke into an abandoned building to party or stole a bicycle. This is a kid who brought a gun to school a year ago. For what? Show and tell? I think you'd agree a 15 year old knows they shouldn't bring a gun to school.

 

If you really feel that this kid shows indications of becoming a law abiding citizen, was "planning to move out of Jersey some day", and "bought the stuff ahead of time" I really don't what can convince.

 

Using your logic, all of us who "plan on moving out of Jersey some day" should buy 30 rd magazines and NJ non-compliant weapons for the day we do.

 

I'm not defending the stupid gun laws in NJ. But if you want to keep your gun rights you have you need to follow them.

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I wonder how many 80% ARs or now Glocks have been confiscated for use in a crime? They seem so easy to get- even Brownells and Midway are selling them.

I would like to know the answer to this too but...

 

As easy as guns are to get off the street I don't see anyone who isn't even smart enough to say "welcome to Walmart" or flip a burger becoming an amiture gunsmith. 

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Shane, the two basic elements of a crime are a guilty act (possession of all the parts including a 80% lower and the jig) and the intent or ability or as you say it the skill.

 

There are laws against owning tools in some circumstances. If you have. If you have boltcutters, a hammer, hacksaw, and pry bar most times they are just tools. If you have them behind a jewelry store at 3 am they become burglar tools.

 

The final interpretation of the law is left up to a jury. That's what the Constitution says.

 

This is not a kid who broke into an abandoned building to party or stole a bicycle. This is a kid who brought a gun to school a year ago. For what? Show and tell? I think you'd agree a 15 year old knows they shouldn't bring a gun to school.

 

If you really feel that this kid shows indications of becoming a law abiding citizen, was "planning to move out of Jersey some day", and "bought the stuff ahead of time" I really don't what can convince.

 

Using your logic, all of us who "plan on moving out of Jersey some day" should buy 30 rd magazines and NJ non-compliant weapons for the day we do.

 

I'm not defending the stupid gun laws in NJ. But if you want to keep your gun rights you have you need to follow them.

 

Griz, with all due respect, I don't find your arguments logical.

 

Is it currently illegal to own a 30 round magazine? Yes, so you would be breaking current law.

 

Are there laws on the books about burglary tools? Yes N.J. Stat. Ann. § 2C:5-5. But even then the prosecutor will still need to prove the tool was possessed with the intent to commit a crime, which he will likely be able to articulate if the totality of circumstances exist. BUT THE STATUTE EXISTS!

 

Please show me the statute for possession of tools to manufacture firearms like the burglary tool statute I listed above.

 

In regards to "law abiding citizen" I think you missed the point that the SAME interpretation of the law from your perspective could easily be used against a law abiding citizen if accepted against the suspect.

 

I don't care if he rots for his actual crimes. I care if he is charged and convicted for possession because it sets a bad precedent for others to be convicted too. You seem to be missing the point that it would make anyone that has an 80% lower a criminal.

 

Assume it is an 80 lower and has not been worked on at all. Manufacturing was not conducted therefore no crime was committed. That is the only law on the books Im aware of. There isn't one for tools like there is for burglary tools. So what crime was actually committed in regards to firearms? If this were to be judged a crime somehow, then anyone who owns an 80% lower would now be subject to the same judgment. You don't see a problem with this?

 

Where does it stop? 60% lower? Why wouldn't a block of aluminum, a mill and blueprints be a problem too? 3d printer and a file? In my opinion this has all been thought about and the threshold of 80% decided on. If 1 gram of substance x is a non crime ticket and over a gram is the threshold for the crime of intent to distribute, how is it your advocating charging intent to distribute with less than a gram and below the threshold of a crime. To be clear less than a gram = 80 lower. Over a gram = a 80% lower that has been made more complete than its original state, having crossed the threshold of potentially being the crime of manufacturing in NJ.

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Shane,

 

High cap mags are not illegal when used in a non-semiauto firearm.

 

So if I have a bolt action AR and I don't have a semiautomatic AR nor the parts for one, that 30 Rd mag is legal.

Only if your 30 rd mag doesn't fit in a semi-automatic firearm. The law makes no mention of possession of a semi-auto AND a high cap mag. If it works in ANY semi-auto, it's illegal.

 

"Large capacity ammunition magazine" means a box, drum, tube or other container which is capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm.

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Shane,

High cap mags are not illegal when used in a non-semiauto firearm.

So if I have a bolt action AR and I don't have a semiautomatic AR nor the parts for one, that 30 Rd mag is legal.

If that were true my wife, who doesnt own a semi AR, would have a pile of 30's stacked next to my AR's in the safe : )

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Griz is right

18 for long 21 for hand

That's federal

 

The question rilly is, is he now a prohibited person after he brought the handgun to school.....

The last time.

on a side note... Lets say he was not going to use the 80%.... he would need to be 21 to get a stripped lower as well :)

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on a side note... Lets say he was not going to use the 80%.... he would need to be 21 to get a stripped lower as well :)

ONLY if bought from a dealer.

 

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I'm assuming that's because you could make an AR pistol, correct? Does a stripped lower require a pistol permit then?

No. You buy it as a rifle. It would then be illegal to use it for a pistol. If purchased to make a pistol, then yes,

a P2P would be needed.

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Shane,

 

High cap mags are not illegal when used in a non-semiauto firearm.

 

So if I have a bolt action AR and I don't have a semiautomatic AR nor the parts for one, that 30 Rd mag is legal.

Are you sure. High capacity magazines in and of themselves are illegal to posses in the peoples republic of nj.

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^^^^THIS^^^^

I believe  the statute reads something like "capable of holding more than 15 rounds and can reliably feed a semi-auto".

I don't recall the exemption for people that don't have the semi-auto. LEO and military are the only exemptions I recall.

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Gents,

 

We are all so beaten down that we will continue to defend our oppressors even when we put ourselves in their crosshairs by our abiding of the law. We all tend to be cheerleaders for LEOs. That's what honorable, law-abiding people do. Yet those that seek to limit our constitutional rights use our honor against us.

 

This kid is bad, no doubt. There are those that will get the torches and pitchforks out without realizing that the same piece of paper that enumerates, NOT grants, our 2nd amendment rights also protects this miscreant from unfair and arbitrary prosecution. Regardless of his motives, priors or intent, to rah-rah the further expansion by precedent of the arcane, pitfall-ridden draconian gun laws in this state is beyond ridiculous. I'm for law and order as much as the next guy. But I will fight for fair prosecution every time. Even for shit bags.

 

Those that don't speak for this kid's rights won't have anyone to speak up for them when they become law-abiding criminals. To paraphrase Niemöller's prophetic poem.

 

We do more to destroy our gun rights by this kind of overzealous support of the judicial system than all the Bloombergs of the world ever could.

 

A couple of quick points:

 

There is no defined "80%" line. The current crop of so called "80% lowers" exist in a sort of gray area by virtue of specific exemptions. Sort of like the arm brace determination letter. The ATF thugs can reverse their position at any time. If any of you follow the form 1 silencer hobby that exists in free America you would know that these determinations are ephemeral at best and subject to raids, sales records confiscations and retroactive criminalization of apparently harmless engine block parts available in any Autozone.

 

There is no legal way to complete an 80% anything in a state where arm braced slingshots are illegal and daisy red rider BB guns are considered short barreled shotguns. None. Period.

 

Having the tools or CNC mill that could manufacture a firearm is not illegal. Even if you own the drawings and files as you are protected by the first amendment—that still exists, right?

 

Owning a stamped or forged piece of aluminum with a trigger guard and mag well doesn't make you a felon. For now. But a famous prosecutor once said that he "could indict a ham sandwich". We are all felons in waiting. Especially those of us that dare to jump through the hoops and over the obstacles that the oppressors put in our way to exercise our constitutional 2nd amendment civil rights.

 

Tread at your own risk.

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