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Peel has permits

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3 minutes ago, Mrs. Peel said:

Beginner here! What's with all the insider "gun code" acronyms? I haven't a clue what you're talking about. Even Google was unhelpful. S-p-e-l-l  i-t  o-u-t  p-l-e-a-s-e! Thx!

I think carl and I know each other from ping ponging off of Trees. 

Sorry to hijack your thread Peel.

Ktm is bestes dirt cycle invented, ever.

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1 minute ago, Zeke said:

I think I carl and I Now each other from ping ponging off of Trees. 

Sorry to hijack your thread Peel.

Ktm is bestes dirt cycle invented, ever.

Oh, no problem at all. Carry on, boys! Didn't mean to sound grumpy. :D

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I've become a huge fan of pocket guns.  I just bought a couple of Makarov's and a CZ83 in .380.  I haven't had a chance to shoot the CZ yet but the all steel Makarov pistol with a relatively lightweight round (9x18 Makarov of course) makes it an extremely accurate pistol in a fairly small package.  They do make defensive rounds in 9mm Mak as well.  For $300 I'm more than happy.

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Yet another opinion. I'm also a woman with small hands. I tried a lot of different handguns and my first purchase was a Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm (full size). It comes with three different sized backstraps (S, M, and L). For me, the grip is perfect using the S backstrap. Eventually I invested in an Apex trigger job, which greatly increased the overall comfort level. However, I've heard that the new 2nd generation M&Ps come with a much better trigger so that might not be an issue anymore.

I feel minimal recoil, which had been a mental issue for me that isn't even a thought anymore.

I have since purchased more handguns, including a couple of revolvers that I love. However, my M&P is my "go to" firearm and I shoot it the most accurately. Just another single-stack semi-auto option to throw in the mix.

Let me know if you ever want to meet and try it out.

BTW, I recently burned two P2Ps. I got three, used one, and nothing else really gave me that gotta have it feeling. It happens.

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3 hours ago, jeff47 said:

I've become a huge fan of pocket guns.  I just bought a couple of Makarov's and a CZ83 in .380.  I haven't had a chance to shoot the CZ yet but the all steel Makarov pistol with a relatively lightweight round (9x18 Makarov of course) makes it an extremely accurate pistol in a fairly small package.  They do make defensive rounds in 9mm Mak as well.  For $300 I'm more than happy.

I've been a 380 fan since the 70s.  While it can be an effective round  Mrs Peel's best group of the day was with a subcompact 9mm Parabellum the size of many 380s.  She did well shooting 357 magnum in a K frame size gun so she is not recoil sensitive.

i'm not a fan of the 9mm Makarov.  Any gains from the 380 are slight.  Don't get me wrong.  There are times I feel adeqautely armed with a 380.  I carried one as a primary duty gun and still do to this day at times.

The fact is you are better off with a 38 special than a 380.

 

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I'm also a .380 Fanboy & have been since the late 80's.  I own a 3.25" tubed .380 Colt Mustang Government Model, the biggest "1911" Mustang they ever made.  It's 7+1 capacity enabling my pinky to wrap around the grip & series 80 safety makes it ideal to carry in Condition #2 (hammer down on a live round) with the safety OFF.  Can fit in either front pants pocket & be deployed by either hand QUICK (just pull the hammer back as you deploy it for 8 rounds of Federal Hydra-Shocks :) ).  Hides itself under a leather "old fogies" change purse that us experienced guys hide a spare key in.  Doesn't "print" (only outside of change purse is visible) even when wearing thin, light colored shorts along the boardwalk.  Yes, my car keys & coins have scratched-up it's dull stainless finish (I could care LESS).  It's NOT a "target pistol", it's a SHTF pistol that will take care of multiple miscreants (spare mag w/ 7 more Hydra-Shocks behind my money clip in opposite front pocket---that also doesn't "print" will see to THAT!).  Needless to say 15 rounds in an all-metal, weak hand only capable single-stack that doesn't even require a holster is quite comforting when, even after doing everything Jeff Cooper said about avoiding trouble in the first place, TROUBLE FINDS YOU!  

Just one more for Peel to have fun with :) 

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Apologies in advance for the thread hijack.

Quick note on .380 ACP in my opinion:

Everything I have read on terminal ballistics of these rounds says to me to use ball ammo and not hollow nose. The extra penetration helps increase its performance. When I carry it (usually as a third gun but sometimes as a BUG to a Kahr PM9 when that what is indicated by events outside my control) I carry Lawmen 95gr FMJ in my LCP - I used to carry Winchester 95gr SXT.

Yes - the hollow nose enables the round to open up and make dime-size holes, but they aren't getting deep enough to do incapacitating damage. They are making ugly but shallow wounds that, while they don't increase the morale of your intended target, they don't necessarily stop fights either. Plus if your are pocket carrying a .380 your capacity is down as it is - you provably want every shot to have as much ballistic advantage as possible.

As always, shot placement is key, and doing your part will get you the X and Y coordinate - but you need to get the Z as well, and that's depth. That relies on bullet construction and power, and to some degree barrel length for velocity but the .380 can only do so much.

Rosey, The long barrel on that Mustang will help - that's a cool little gun by the way - I don't know if it is enough.

Just something to consider.

Quick BLUF from Dr Gary Roberts:

Handguns chambered in .380 ACP are small, compact, and generally easy to carry. Unfortunately, testing has shown that they offer inadequate performance for self-defense and for law enforcement use whether on duty as a back-up weapon or for off duty carry. The terminal performance of .380 ACP JHP's is often erratic, with inadequate penetration and inconsistent expansion being common problems, while .380 ACP FMJ's offer adequate penetration, but no expansion. All of the .380 ACP JHP loads we have tested, including CorBon, Hornady, Federal, Remington, Speer, and Winchester exhibited inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration or inadequate expansion. Stick with FMJ for .380 ACP

The best of the worst in .380 seem to be FMJ (no expansion, penetration too deep), followed by the new Federal 99 gr HST (penetration a bit shallow), Hornady 90 gr XTP (poor expansion), Federal 90 gr HydraShok (inconsistent expansion), and Speer 90 gr Gold Dot (a bit shallow on penetration); note that all are poor against intermediate barriers.

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@High Exposure,  generally agree with your assessment of the 380.  I've used FMJ since the 70s.  I've also carried it guns like the PP, PPK, Bersa, and various Berettas.

I agree with Skeeter Skelton's opinion that a 380 with FMJ is about as effective as a 2" 38 special with RNL.

The smallest 380 I own is a S&W Bodyguard.  I shoot it about as well as J frame 38.

Thing is that the small single column 9mms like the Shield, Taurus 709, Glock 43, and others are really about the same size as a "full size" 380.  Peel has no issues shooting my Taurus 709 and in fact shot her best group of the day with it.  I suggested the Shield to her as it is the just about the same size and weight. If someone is looking for a SD gun and can handle a smaller 9x19 I'm not going to suggest a 380.  It can work but a 9x19 is better and cheaper to shoot.

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12 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Apologies in advance for the thread hijack.

Quick note on .380 ACP in my opinion:

Everything I have read on terminal ballistics of these rounds says to me to use ball ammo and not hollow nose. The extra penetration helps increase its performance. When I carry it (usually as a third gun but sometimes as a BUG to a Kahr PM9 when that what is indicated by events outside my control) I carry Lawmen 95gr FMJ in my LCP - I used to carry Winchester 95gr SXT.

Yes - the hollow nose enables the round to open up and make dime-size holes, but they aren't getting deep enough to do incapacitating damage. They are making ugly but shallow wounds that, while they don't increase the morale of your intended target, they don't necessarily stop fights either. Plus if your are pocket carrying a .380 your capacity is down as it is - you provably want every shot to have as much ballistic advantage as possible.

As always, shot placement is key, and doing your part will get you the X and Y coordinate - but you need to get the Z as well, and that's depth. That relies on bullet construction and power, and to some degree barrel length for velocity but the .380 can only do so much.

Rosey, The long barrel on that Mustang will help - that's a cool little gun by the way - I don't know if it is enough.

Just something to consider.

Quick BLUF from Dr Gary Roberts:

 

 

Thanks H.E.!  I'll do some testing.  I do know that Hydra-Shocks fill-up with wall board & thick outerwear (winter coats) thus becoming "Ball" all on their own (no or limited expansion).  Note that Dr. Roberts never said they didn't penetrate enough (like other rounds mentioned), so it's always a compromise with .380.  Although generally not finicky, the Mustang's feed ramp sometimes "coughs" with ".40 S&W style" flat-pointed Ball ammo (which didn't exist when the gun was made btw), and it LOVES both the Hydro-Shocks & other similarly-nosed bullets.  They slide up that feed ramp & go into battery even when I'm trying to "limp-wrist" the pistol into a jam.  100% reliability, even when shot with pocket lint (real-world combat conditions).

Mentally when I deploy the Mustang, I tend to think of it as a "8-round, Two-Perp gun".  If just a single miscreant needs an "adjustment", he/she will get 2 in the abdominal carriage & 2 in the chest as I "zipper" them.  After getting "zippered", unless they're "dusted", most of "the fight" will hopefully be knocked out of him/her due to blood loss & resulting shock.  Much like Tuco in "The Good, The Bad & The Ugly", I'm a firm believer in "IF YA HAFTA SHOOT, THEN S H O O T!"   Relying on a single .380 round to get the entire job done is misdirected expectation (at best) which can KILL YOU quicker than DEAD (a-la the Winchester 9mm Silvertip fiasco w/ the famous FBI murders), thus the "zipper" approach :) .  My Mustang is NOT my .44 magnum (where a single 240 grain HP makes a fist-sized hole exiting), so I sure as hell don't treat it as such.

I wish Colt would make the same gun in 9mm and come-in under Kahr's price point :) .  Greater penetration & cheaper ammo with a heavier round having the same diameter & mag capacity.  Much like putting .357 into a J-frame wheelie, I'm not into getting my hand(s) abused to train with a lightweight aluminum pocket pistol that becomes an un-practiced with safe queen.

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1 hour ago, GRIZ said:

Thing is that the small single column 9mms like the Shield, Taurus 709, Glock 43, and others are really about the same size as a "full size" 380.  Peel has no issues shooting my Taurus 709 and in fact shot her best group of the day with it.  I suggested the Shield to her as it is the just about the same size and weight. If someone is looking for a SD gun and can handle a smaller 9x19 I'm not going to suggest a 380.  It can work but a 9x19 is better and cheaper to shoot.

@GRIZ

I agree with this 1000000000%. Ballistically, I prefer a compact 9mm with quality ammo (Fed HST is my preferred carry ammo) over a .380 all day long. And when you can find a modern 9mm platform that is only marginally larger - if not almost identical in size and weight - it's a no brainer. 

As cool as those Mustang pistols are, you can get a G26 with 11 rounds of ballistically superior full power 9mm in a slightly smaller, lighter, and significantly cheaper package.

 

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@Smokin .50

Cool.

If you are still convinced hollow nose is the way to go, check out the Federal HST offerings. Federal HST is currently 2 generations past HydraShok technology (you can go 3 generations if you look at the G2 HST that the FBI specced for their new Glocks, but reviews have been mixed) and have much more consistent expansion, better weight retention, and are a little better at making it through barriers in the .380 offering.

No, back to Peel and her permits :D

 

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Is this topic still relevant?

Also a relatively new shooter. My font of knowledge spilleth over, however. What do you want the gun for? Oh right, we live in NJ:

* forget pocket guns unless they're in .22lr, which everyone will tell you only girls buy (I have three, and 3 rifles in that caliber. Please pass the rouge). Hard to control, lots of recoil (even in .380), not very accurate. Good for shooting someone at very close range though. Do you have such a person in mind?

* forget J frame (is there an "i-frame"?) revolvers for any round larger than .38 special. Too much recoil

* CZ82, Makarov, or the .380 CZ versions are wonderful, inexpensive, and in my experience 100% reliable. BUT the 9x18s (Makarov) have a bit of bite to them. Never actually shot the .380 (I believe CZ83?). I'm guessing those would be very pleasant for me, perhaps less so for you.  

* If for casual (i.e. home) self-defense and you're not well trained I'd avoid anything with a safety or without a safety in single-action only. Of course all the glock and 1911 guys here have trained for thousands of hours and can rack the slide on a Desert Eagle with their, er, how can I say this?

* If it's a fun gun you want to have fun with it so make sure it's pleasant to shoot. My faves: GP100 and S&W 686 (.357 magnum), anything in .22 caliber, large heavy steel 9mm (eg CZsp01) and in a pinch E. German Makarov (9x18). 

* I shoot 300-500 .22lr every time I go to the range. Revolvers in that caliber are awesome. Watch with the semi-autos though. My Browning Buckmark is a bitch to take down and eats only gourmet ammo. I strongly suggest the Ruger Mark IV: 1 button takedown and after the first day and cleaning 100% reliable. 

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@Newtonian, yes there was an I frame S&W.  It was chambered for  38 S&W and 32 S&W long.  When they wanted to make a small frame 38 special the I frame was too short for that caliber. They lengthened the I frame to create the J frame.

Small guns can be very accurate.  It's the sights and the shooter's skill level are what degrade accuracy.  

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15 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

@Newtonian, yes there was an I frame S&W.  It was chambered for  38 S&W and 32 S&W long.  When they wanted to make a small frame 38 special the I frame was too short for that caliber. They lengthened the I frame to create the J frame.

Small guns can be very accurate.  It's the sights and the shooter's skill level are what degrade accuracy.  

Short, non-fixed barrels (the aforementioned SigP30, which I owned) tend to be less accurate than long fixed barrels. The worse the shooter the bigger the difference (pointing at myself). That's why I'm all smiles after shooting my 686 snubnose (even w/ magnums) but sometimes missed the paper entirely at 7 yds, and very often at 15 yds, with the P230. Maybe I got better but saying it's a matter of experience and skill doesn't change the fact that I sucked with the Sig and it hurt to shoot. When I sold the Sig ammo for it was >$20 a box. Too expensive for real practice, and as a NJ resident I had no need for a pocket gun. 

Edit: If I ever get another set of permits I'm getting a Rhino and a Mak-style gun in .380.

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29 minutes ago, Newtonian said:

Is this topic still relevant?

Also a relatively new shooter. My font of knowledge spilleth over, however. What do you want the gun for? Oh right, we live in NJ:

* forget pocket guns unless they're in .22lr, which everyone will tell you only girls buy (I have three, and 3 rifles in that caliber. Please pass the rouge). Hard to control, lots of recoil (even in .380), not very accurate. Good for shooting someone at very close range though. Do you have such a person in mind?

* forget J frame (is there an "i-frame"?) revolvers for any round larger than .38 special. Too much recoil

* CZ82, Makarov, or the .380 CZ versions are wonderful, inexpensive, and in my experience 100% reliable. BUT the 9x18s (Makarov) have a bit of bite to them. Never actually shot the .380 (I believe CZ83?). I'm guessing those would be very pleasant for me, perhaps less so for you.  

* If for casual (i.e. home) self-defense and you're not well trained I'd avoid anything with a safety or without a safety in single-action only. Of course all the glock and 1911 guys here have trained for thousands of hours and can rack the slide on a Desert Eagle with their, er, how can I say this?

* If it's a fun gun you want to have fun with it so make sure it's pleasant to shoot. My faves: GP100 and S&W 686 (.357 magnum), anything in .22 caliber, large heavy steel 9mm (eg CZsp01) and in a pinch E. German Makarov (9x18). 

* I shoot 300-500 .22lr every time I go to the range. Revolvers in that caliber are awesome. Watch with the semi-autos though. My Browning Buckmark is a bitch to take down and eats only gourmet ammo. I strongly suggest the Ruger Mark IV: 1 button takedown and after the first day and cleaning 100% reliable. 

You know what the problem is? Just when I think I have choices narrowed down... MORE and MORE suggestions get thrown in the mix! So, I'm just setting up range dates to try LOTS of different things... I probably just need more time. 

I already have 1 gun. A Ruger 22/45 (if you're not familiar, its a 22 with the same grip angle as a 1911). I was thinking of an HD gun next --- there's almost too many options, hence my total confusion. But, that's OK. I'm still new - it's to be expected.

Griz was very helpful - I think I shot about a dozen of his and did form some likes/dislikes that will help inform the final choice. My goal is to work my way through 20 more handguns in July (if possible). Thanks to you (and all) for the additional suggestions!

People who've been doing this for years might forget how positively dizzying all the options are to someone just starting out. But, I'm just going to be very purposeful and methodical and get my hands on as many guns as possible. And I plan to have a "rolling permit" process while I'm in this trial phase (before they expire, I'll order 2 more). That way, when I find what I like and make a decision: I can pounce on it for instant gratification!

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Yes there are many choices but don't take too much advice (especially from me) other than that you should be comfortable shooting the gun, the ammo should be inexpensive enough to shoot a lot of, and after a crazy day at the range you should not need wrist surgery.

My suggestions were 100% my preferences based on my experience. I don't like heavy-recoil guns and I'm not ashamed to say it in Boy-Land. I don't shoot them well and I don't feel the need to undergo the unpleasantness involved in shooting enough to get good at it.

You don't need a .45 ACP to have fun at a range or to send two ne'er do wells breaking into your home to the ER or, hopefully, to the morgue. You don't need a self-defense gun with a 1.5 lb trigger or laser sights unless you're in a combat situation. You don't need anything stylish or too expensive to get started. Just something that's fun -- by your standards, not anyone else's -- to shoot. You can have all that stuff when you are ready but you should not let anyone tell you that there is a "best" gun, even for one particular situation. 

I used to believe my Makarovs were the best guns on earth. Then it was the S&W 617 in .22lr. Now it's my S&W 686. Tomorrow who knows? If you feel like sticking with .22s for now that's perfectly fine. Like I said, the revolvers are awesome :)

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1 hour ago, Mrs. Peel said:

You know what the problem is? Just when I think I have choices narrowed down... MORE and MORE suggestions get thrown in the mix! So, I'm just setting up range dates to try LOTS of different things... I probably just need more time. 

I already have 1 gun. A Ruger 22/45 (if you're not familiar, its a 22 with the same grip angle as a 1911). I was thinking of an HD gun next --- there's almost too many options, hence my total confusion. But, that's OK. I'm still new - it's to be expected.

Griz was very helpful - I think I shot about a dozen of his and did form some likes/dislikes that will help inform the final choice. My goal is to work my way through 20 more handguns in July (if possible). Thanks to you (and all) for the additional suggestions!

People who've been doing this for years might forget how positively dizzying all the options are to someone just starting out. But, I'm just going to be very purposeful and methodical and get my hands on as many guns as possible. And I plan to have a "rolling permit" process while I'm in this trial phase (before they expire, I'll order 2 more). That way, when I find what I like and make a decision: I can pounce on it for instant gratification!

Better get a bigger safe....

 

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1 hour ago, Mrs. Peel said:

You know what the problem is? Just when I think I have choices narrowed down... MORE and MORE suggestions get thrown in the mix! So, I'm just setting up range dates to try LOTS of different things... I probably just need more time. 

I already have 1 gun. A Ruger 22/45 (if you're not familiar, its a 22 with the same grip angle as a 1911). I was thinking of an HD gun next --- there's almost too many options, hence my total confusion. But, that's OK. I'm still new - it's to be expected.

Griz was very helpful - I think I shot about a dozen of his and did form some likes/dislikes that will help inform the final choice. My goal is to work my way through 20 more handguns in July (if possible). Thanks to you (and all) for the additional suggestions!

People who've been doing this for years might forget how positively dizzying all the options are to someone just starting out. But, I'm just going to be very purposeful and methodical and get my hands on as many guns as possible. And I plan to have a "rolling permit" process while I'm in this trial phase (before they expire, I'll order 2 more). That way, when I find what I like and make a decision: I can pounce on it for instant gratification!

Good attitude and smart play.

Were still gonna bug you about it though. :p

 

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