NJ CCW Application

[PDM 91]

I know the topic of pros/cons of submitting a NJ permit to possess application knowing that rejection will certainly follow has been discussed ad nauseum, but I raise it again out of a sense of ever increasing frustration to see if there are any fresh ideas as to potential reasons to submit. As  far as I can tell nothing has ever come of a concerted effort to file applications and I am quite familiar with the arguments against -- particularly the alleged potential  problems created by having to report the denial on future FID or out of state CCW or other firearms applications.  Our local Police chief -- who is not rabidly anti-gun as far as I can tell and runs a department that is relatively friendly and helpful when it comes to processing FID cards and pistol purchase permits -- has apparently  said (I get this second hand) that he has talked to all the local Bergen county judges and all have clearly said they will never approve an application other than retired police and he doesn't want to waste his time, and also opined that a denial will create problems for future applications.

Here are my thoughts as to reasons why to submit:

1.  It is the right thing to do.  It certainly will be  futile, at least in the near term, but  I feel that remaining silent and acquiescing is just wrong.  If a town passed an ordinance that no new churches or synagogues could be built, and threatened anyone who filed for a building permit for a church with the inability to ever obtain a permit for their personal residence, would people just meekly go along?  It is astounding that everyone swallows the absurd threat that a CCW denial based solely on the state's arbitrary and capricious justifiable need standard rather than any personal fault could ever be used for a future denial of another permit. I was just at a private Utah CCW class attended by successful, prominent people -- doctors, lawyers, business professionals -- and it struck me how absurd it is that we are all going through this  ass backwards process of applying for a permit from Utah in the hope that national carry reciprocity will somehow help us here (and I seriously doubt that it will).  Why don't we also speak up?  Our rights are being trampled,  we are  cowed by literal threats from our local officials, and we all bend over and take.

2.  It will make a statement, which just might  have an impact.  Will Loretta Weinberg or any of the other anti-gun politicians change their anti-gun views?  No.  But if enough people apply, if enough people make some noise, and if word gets out it may, over time, add one small point of leverage that could make a difference.

I have no hope of an organized state wide effort developing, but I am very strongly considering applyinh on my own.  I really am not concerned about any impact on future applications.  Any thoughts, new or rehashed, would be welcome.

[Zeke 5,504]

7 minutes ago, PDM said:

I know the topic of pros/cons of submitting a NJ permit to possess application knowing that rejection will certainly follow has been discussed ad nauseum, but I raise it again out of a sense of ever increasing frustration to see if there are any fresh ideas as to potential reasons to submit. As  far as I can tell nothing has ever come of a concerted effort to file applications and I am quite familiar with the arguments against -- particularly the alleged potential  problems created by having to report the denial on future FID or out of state CCW or other firearms applications.  Our local Police chief -- who is not rabidly anti-gun as far as I can tell and runs a department that is relatively friendly and helpful when it comes to processing FID cards and pistol purchase permits -- has apparently  said (I get this second hand) that he has talked to all the local Bergen county judges and all have clearly said they will never approve an application other than retired police and he doesn't want to waste his time, and also opined that a denial will create problems for future applications.

Here are my thoughts as to reasons why to submit:

1.  It is the right thing to do.  It certainly will be  futile, at least in the near term, but  I feel that remaining silent and acquiescing is just wrong.  If a town passed an ordinance that no new churches or synagogues could be built, and threatened anyone who filed for a building permit for a church with the inability to ever obtain a permit for their personal residence, would people just meekly go along?  It is astounding that everyone swallows the absurd threat that a CCW denial based solely on the state's arbitrary and capricious justifiable need standard rather than any personal fault could ever be used for a future denial of another permit. I was just at a private Utah CCW class attended by successful, prominent people -- doctors, lawyers, business professionals -- and it struck me how absurd it is that we are all going through this  ass backwards process of applying for a permit from Utah in the hope that national carry reciprocity will somehow help us here (and I seriously doubt that it will).  Why don't we also speak up?  Our rights are being trampled,  we are  cowed by literal threats from our local officials, and we all bend over and take.

2.  It will make a statement, which just might  have an impact.  Will Loretta Weinberg or any of the other anti-gun politicians change their anti-gun views?  No.  But if enough people apply, if enough people make some noise, and if word gets out it may, over time, add one small point of leverage that could make a difference.

I have no hope of an organized state wide effort developing, but I am very strongly considering applyinh on my own.  I really am not concerned about any impact on future applications.  Any thoughts, new or rehashed, would be welcome.

When all the carry stuff was going on the District of Columbia, I recall this from the judge" an atmosphere of propaganda set to dissuade residents of applying "( sumtin like that.

 

Go for it. When I have the time I plan on it as well. I personally doubt I will be Denied p2p's in the future. I plan on quoting a few things from the constitution...

Keep us informed. At worst you motivate only me. At best you will motivate many.

[PDM 91]

When I get around to doing this, I plan on applying for a purchase permit immediately after the permit to possess application is rejected.  That will at least flush out the denial issue immediately.  I am researching cases on neglect of duty by a public official, the thought being that there could be some liability if a public official arbitrarily denies an application, but I'm pretty sure that is not a viable claim.  NJ actually did have such a statute at one point, but it was repealed (of course).

[Zeke 5,504]

4 minutes ago, PDM said:

When I get around to doing this, I plan on applying for a purchase permit immediately after the permit to possess application is rejected.  That will at least flush out the denial issue immediately.  I am researching cases on neglect of duty by a public official, the thought being that there could be some liability if a public official arbitrarily denies an application, but I'm pretty sure that is not a viable claim.  NJ actually did have such a statute at one point, but it was repealed (of course).

To be honest. The 2nd amendment should be enough. If the court rejects it, they reject the constitution....

[ALAN553 27]

I have raised this point before...flood the judges with requests...a denial, seriously? getting a denial in NJ?  Everyone know the impossibilities.  Getting denied for another P2P in our own state because you were denied a CCW?  You pass the mental health check, the criminal background check, it's left to the local PD to issue the P2P, he already knows why you didn't get the CCW permit.  If any one ever asks why you were denied, tell them the truth, your life and the safety of your family has no value in NJ.  NJ prefers to keep everyone a victim!  I'm sure they'll understand...LOL.

[PK90 3,570]

IMO, you should apply for the CCW and make them deny you. If something bad were to happen to you in the future, that having a firearm with you could have prevented, then you will have grounds to seek action against the government. 

[Zeke 5,504]

20 minutes ago, PK90 said:

IMO, you should apply for the CCW and make them deny you. If something bad were to happen to you in the future, that having a firearm with you could have prevented, then you will have grounds to seek action against the government. 

Summabitch, that was a point I was gonna make done the road.

And I'm out of likes 

[Smokin .50 1,907]

39 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Summabitch, that was a point I was gonna make done the road.

And I'm out of likes 

I guess you're a "LIKE" Whore too, lol!  j/k

[Zeke 5,504]

2 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

I guess you're a "LIKE" Whore too, lol!  j/k

It builds community, it builds friendship, its builds...

[Stonecoldchavez 92]

19 hours ago, PK90 said:

IMO, you should apply for the CCW and make them deny you. If something bad were to happen to you in the future, that having a firearm with you could have prevented, then you will have grounds to seek action against the government. 

You can't sue the gov't....ie. Judges are exempt from being sued. Another i.e..this new bail reform a judge lets a criminal out; criminal goes and commits a murder; victims family cannot sue the judge who released the criminal. 

[Zeke 5,504]

7 minutes ago, Stonecoldchavez said:

You can't sue the gov't....ie. Judges are exempt from being sued. Another i.e..this new bail reform a judge lets a criminal out; criminal goes and commits a murder; victims family cannot sue the judge who released the criminal. 

He means appealing on constitutional grounds. Not the judge, the laws themselves.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

I have thought about applying, and awhile back this forum had something where everyone went the same day to get the application and I did.  But I have yet to fill it out and return it.

 

[Zeke 5,504]

5 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

I have thought about applying, and awhile back this forum had something where everyone went the same day to get the application and I did.  But I have yet to fill it out and return it.

 

Atleast one posted his progress, or lack there of. It was during your self eject

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Just now, Zeke said:

Atleast one posted his progress, or lack there of. It was during your self eject

Is there a thread?

[Zeke 5,504]

You can search. Had local chief sign off, Made it NJ superior court.

used the transport angle 

[Luso 6]

I've been trying to convince the groups to do a mass application for years. Skewing the rejection statistics wildly and then throwing cameras in the local assemblymen/senator's faces would definitely cause a ruckus and force them to confront the issue. Especially if the racial angle is invoked as the Inner cities categorically deny citizens from even applying (NJ2AS has had several videos showing this) 

[Zeke 5,504]

19 hours ago, Luso said:

I've been trying to convince the groups to do a mass application for years. Skewing the rejection statistics wildly and then throwing cameras in the local assemblymen/senator's faces would definitely cause a ruckus and force them to confront the issue. Especially if the racial angle is invoked as the Inner cities categorically deny citizens from even applying (NJ2AS has had several videos showing this) 

It's not the groups, it's the individual that makes up the groups.

Sell me on it.

[BobA 1,235]

It might be possible the opposite could happen with a mass application movement. It would hit the media and the Libs would panic. 

Does anyone actually know of anyone personally that was denied due to a prior denial?

[nooch450 41]

All State Lawmakers that voted or vote Yes to Passing ”no issue” or “may issue” gun carry permit laws Violate 18 U.S. Code § 241 - Conspiracy against rights

If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same;

or If two or more persons go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege so secured— They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.

Oppress (verb) to burden with cruel or unjust impositions or restraints; subject to aburdensome or harsh exercise of authority or power:

The 2nd Amendment applies to all levels of government and applies to an individual’s right to keep and bear arms.

Bear (verb) To possess or carry

McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 742 (2010), is a landmark[1]decision of the Supreme Court of the United States that found that the right of an individual to "keep and bear arms" as protected under the Second Amendment is incorporated by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment against the states. On June 28, 2010, the Supreme Court, in a 5–4 decision, reversed the Seventh Circuit's decision, holding that the Second Amendment was incorporated under the Fourteenth Amendment thus protecting those rights from infringement by local governments.

This means that the Second Amendment, per the McDonald v. Chicago (2010) ruling from the U.S. Supreme Court, is a constitutional right that also restricts state and local governments from infringing on our right to keep and bear arms.

NJ State Police Oath of Office

I, ____________________________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the State of New Jersey; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same and to the Governments established in the United States and in this State, under the Authority of the people; and that I will faithfully, impartially and justly perform all the duties of the office of ______________________________________________________________________ according to the best of my ability, and that I will not use my office to grant preferential treatment, nor to seek personal gain, favor, or advantage not available to the general public, (so help me, God*).

This means that a NJ state police officer shall support the Constitution of the United States and the rights guaranteed within of his fellow US citizens, including their Constitutional 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms. There is no excuse for any officer to deny a non-criminal, law abiding citizen the paperwork and/or signature required to obtain a permit to carry their arms in public for lawful use. This is every US citizen’s constitutional right.

2nd Ammendment Rights Violation Proof.pdf

[SmittyMHS 603]

Hell of a 1st post!

If only it was that easy...

[Zeke 5,504]

5 minutes ago, SmittyMHS said:

Hell of a 1st post!

If only it was that easy...

Could be.....

[BobA 1,235]

On 7/1/2017 at 9:34 AM, BobA said:

It might be possible the opposite could happen with a mass application movement. It would hit the media and the Libs would panic. 

Does anyone actually know of anyone personally that was denied due to a prior denial?

Does anyone?

[Zeke 5,504]

47 minutes ago, BobA said:

Does anyone?

Ya know,,,,,

[BobA 1,235]

34 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Ya know,,,,,

Exactly.

[BobA 1,235]

https://njgunpermitattorney.com/carry-permits/

[nooch450 41]

What needs to happen is multiple people across NJ have to attempt to go to their police stations and ask for the carry permit application paperwork. If provided fill it out and submit it. If they do not provided it ask why they are not supplying it and request that you get their response in writing and signed off.

 

Be respectful and show them the laws explain that this is your right and nobody should be standing in the way.

 

We need to have have a couple dozen people do this and work with the NRA or NJ2AS to provide financial support to hire a lawyer to take NJ to court over this. It can be won, it just need people to contribute and keep pressing.

 

 

[bhunted 887]

What needs to happen is multiple people across NJ have to attempt to go to their police stations and ask for the carry permit application paperwork. If provided fill it out and submit it. If they do not provided it ask why they are not supplying it and request that you get their response in writing and signed off.
 
Be respectful and show them the laws explain that this is your right and nobody should be standing in the way.
 
We need to have have a couple dozen people do this and work with the NRA or NJ2AS to provide financial support to hire a lawyer to take NJ to court over this. It can be won, it just need people to contribute and keep pressing.
 
 

You are late to the party. It's been done. They do not care.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[maintenanceguy 510]

This was already done 4 or 5 years ago.   It was called "apply to be denied".  It flopped.   There was a legal case moving through the courts at the time. Several people who had been denied a carry permit sued NJ, or actually the judge.  The case made it to the 3rd circuit court.  Google "Piszczatoski" for more info.   NJ started approving the plaintiff's permits to make the case go away, so plaintiffs kept changing and the the name of the case kept changing.  I think the final was Drake v. Filko.

One of NJ's arguments was that they already issue permits to more than 90% (I forget the percentage) of applicants.  Of course that's because nobody applies because everyone knows you won't be approved. NJ gets a few hundred applicants an year from the politically connected and approves those.

So, there was a plan for thousands of us to apply.  Enough people picked up applications that the state police barracks were keeping a pile of blank applications at the front desk.

Then there were two problems: 

1) The case was over and decided.  It was unlikely that the supreme court was going to hear the case.  At that point, proving that NJ really did deny permits didn't seem like it would accomplish much.

2) The application to purchase a firearm asks if you were ever denied a carry permit.  A lot of people were afraid that being denied a carry permit would result in being denied a purchase.

The biggest reason it failed was that nobody could agree on how it should be done or what the plan was once everyone was denied.  In the end, a few dozen applied and were denied but nothing came of it.

[nooch450 41]

We need to sue the state conclude their laws unconstitutional and for them to change the law to shall issue. The laws and legislators need to be held accountable for infringing on our rights. This isn't to just get a permit. It's to insure all citizens have the ability to get their permit approved without being oppressed by our local government. May issue or no issue laws are not valid as they violate the constitution and our constitutional rights.

[BobA 1,235]

5 minutes ago, nooch450 said:

We need to sue the state conclude their laws unconstitutional and for them to change the law to shall issue. The laws and legislators need to be held accountable for infringing on our rights. This isn't to just get a permit. It's to insure all citizens have the ability to get their permit approved without being oppressed by our local government. May issue or no issue laws are not valid as they violate the constitution and our constitutional rights.

Yes.  That would be a way to go.  Now if I could just win the lottery I could afford to do it.