ATT. Shane, Old School, Eric. and other LR guys

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

I have most of the pieces for my 6.5 Grendel AR. Although there is nowhere local that has a 1000 yard range, my intention is to build a rifle easily capable of that range. I am a beginner and I know I have a lot of work and practice to do, but I want to heve the proper equipment. What scope should I look at ? I've had this one recommended to me, what do you think ?

http://www.opticsplanet.com/nightforce-benchrest

Also how close can I shoot with that ? Do I need a RMR type sight on a side angle mount ? Do I need a 20 moa riser ? Can I buy a scope used ?

[Rob0115 1,105]

While I'm not on the list of people you are looking for comment from I'll give you my advice and remember what you are paying for it.

 

I have a two Grendel ARs, can Grendel cartridges do 1000 yards, eh, maybe.  Accurately?  Maybe a bit less so.  What barrel length were you looking to do?  That's a critical bit.  The 6mmAR based off the Grendel is a bit more capable at distance if you want to shoot precision at 1k, I have one, Frank has one, but that still wouldn't be what I chose to go that length.  

 

If the primary purpose is to shoot at distance consider one of the more popular 6.5mm or 6mm precision cartridges like the x47 Lapua (if you reload) or the Creedmoor if you don't.  Also do it with a 700 action bolt action, cheap, and get it trued, a few hundred more.  I have a 6.5x47L on trued Remington action with a KRG chassis and it's awesome.  The action and barrel are new and everything was was purchased in great shape used including the Timney Calvin trigger (125 bucks).  

 

The priciest thing you will but will be the scope to handle that distance.    Scope choices are highly dependent on budget, what's yours?  On my two precision rifles I have G2DMR and Leupold MK6.  On my 6mmAR I have a Vortex PST FFP.  

 

Again take it FWIW and let's see what @Old School and @Shane45 have to say.  

[Rob0115 1,105]

A saw I didn't address some of the scope questions.  You can get s scope for precision rifle as low 3x at the bottom. With that you can shoot close in.  You can also side mount irons or a no mag optic. 

What's the inner and outer range (I see 1k) of targets you want to engage?

the DMR is 3.5 - 21 power. The only neg on that scope is the lack of 0 stops.  

[Bully 749]

2 hours ago, Schrödinger's cat said:

I have most of the pieces for my 6.5 Grendel AR. Although there is nowhere local that has a 1000 yard range, my intention is to build a rifle easily capable of that range. I am a beginner and I know I have a lot of work and practice to do, but I want to heve the proper equipment. What scope should I look at ? I've had this one recommended to me, what do you think ?

http://www.opticsplanet.com/nightforce-benchrest

Also how close can I shoot with that ? Do I need a RMR type sight on a side angle mount ? Do I need a 20 moa riser ? Can I buy a scope used ?

So, you didn't ask me either but WTH, I'll chime in...

The Grendel is entirely capable out to 1k with the right bullets and powder.  Hell, guys shoot 1k with iron sights and long barreled .223.  However given case capacity, it's most likely going to be better on steel than as a precision rig.  Meaning you will hit steel more consistently than you will hit the "X" ring.  So, defining your purpose further will be something to consider.  

 

The NF scope is awesome.  No question.  Just remember that those guys use mirage to make wind calls and it's a completely different "game" than the tacti-cool game that a lot of us try and play.  Will it cross over.  Sure will.  As far as low end mag, I shoot 100yds with my scope set on 24 and 700yds with it at 10x.  It is all dependent on what I'm doing for the day.  Defining your purpose further will be something to consider.  

It all comes down to what you want to do and how you want to do it.  

 

I recently took a class in PA an shot to 700.  Had a ball.  I have a x47 that is perfect for something like that.  I learned a ton.  One thing I learned is that there can be such a thing as too much magnification.  I never really took my scope past 10x for the entire day.  It isn't necessary to ring steel.  Less mirage and wider field of view when transitioning are the biggest benefits to me.  If I was trying to make the "X" ring, well the 24x would probably not  be enough.  

Just some random musings before I go to bed.  It's all worth exactly what you are paying for it. 

[cnk 9]

Just a heads up on scopes. Burris is offering $100 rebates on the XTRII scopes and Bushnell is offering 25% rebates on anything purchased by June 5th. Pulling the trigger on a LRTS tonight as I've read good things about them.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

[Shane45 807]

Is the intention for a DMR type setup or is the goal a dedicated precision semiauto rig?

[Maksim 1,504]

If you are shooting at 1000 yards, why not go for something with a bit more oomph, like 308 or.... 338 Lapua... more expensive, sure, but better for the task?

On the magnification thing... Nightforce makes good glass, so does US Optics, etc... at that price range, they are good.

One of the things for me... I was hooked on magnification until I went to shoot some CMP Vintage matches...  200+ yards with a 70+ year old rifle, and iron sights.  

Seeing the other guys shoot nearly perfect scores with iron sights out of a more or less stock battle rifle.... gives you pause for magnification.   After that, shooting 300+ yards with even an Acog at steel out of a modern AR becomes boring.  

Everyone here gave good advice, it starts with finding the primary purpose for your rifle.... a true long range semi auto, or just a SDM type rifle capable of shooting long distance every so often.

On glass, If you are on a "budget", I am still talking $500 plus, Nikon makes some really nice glass in the Monarch line.  I was quite happy with my Burris scopes too. 

[BullzeyeNJ 104]

What range distance will you be shooting the majority of the time ? I ask because if your shooting from 50 to 300 yards then you would be better off with a quality AR15 in 223 Wylde if your just starting out. A good precision match grade barrel and crisp aftermarket trigger would take you a long way with that caliber. You would learn how to operate the gas gun with a cartridge that has less recoil. Wind would play a bigger factor at distance but thats a good thing too. Reading the wind is a world class skill that only comes with lots of experience. Also, if you dont reload then there are a lot more choices for factory match grade ammo for less money in the 223/5.56 caliber then the 6.5 Grendel. At the end of the day if your still lusting for the 6.5 Grendel then you can always buy a quality upper and swap it out on your lower.  Just my 2 cents. 

[Maksim 1,504]

2 hours ago, BullzeyeNJ said:

What range distance will you be shooting the majority of the time ? I ask because if your shooting from 50 to 300 yards then you would be better off with a quality AR15 in 223 Wylde if your just starting out. A good precision match grade barrel and crisp aftermarket trigger would take you a long way with that caliber. You would learn how to operate the gas gun with a cartridge that has less recoil. Wind would play a bigger factor at distance but thats a good thing too. Reading the wind is a world class skill that only comes with lots of experience. Also, if you dont reload then there are a lot more choices for factory match grade ammo for less money in the 223/5.56 caliber then the 6.5 Grendel. At the end of the day if your still lusting for the 6.5 Grendel then you can always buy a quality upper and swap it out on your lower.  Just my 2 cents. 

And on this topic, part of the reason I sold my 308 years ago and replaced it with the Ar was precisely that. The most I was going to shoot at that point was 300 yards at cj. 

Bought a complete varmint upper from White Oak, 16" bull varmint barrel. Out to 300 it kept .42" MOA. 

 

[Old School 611]

@OP - Good evening.  Now I have no idea of your capability and choosing a rifle/caliber for some one is like buying them underwear

I'll make no recommendations just throw some facts and opinions out there.

If you're gonna shoot distance just shoot.  Even 22lr at 50/75/100yds.  Shoot a decent rifle/scope/ammo prone and make little groups.  I'll practice on a 3/4" dot and it's about group.  You can always change POI.  If you go out to 100yds w/ a 22lr you'll learn to read wind.

You can't buy your way into shooting well.  One of my favorite rifles is a Savage 12 w/ Sightron 8-32 in 243 Win. Not pricey!

You had better learn to hand load.  Not only cost but you want to tailor your ammo to your rifle.  This is how you achieve precision.

Learn what makes a rifle shoot well. Barrel, bedding, trigger quality and ammo.

Know what to expect of your bullet, performance wise, over the distance you're shooting.

Be able to formulate impact solutions based on your ammo and distance.

Now I shoot mostly fixed distances so, I don't have to range. You will need to know how to work with MOA and MRAD.

Ask questions and as I think of more stuff I'll just spit it out.

 

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

Thank you all! I certainly did not mean to ask certain people and exclude others, I'm sorry that it came off that way. I really would like to hear everyone's input.

Great advice so far, thanks. I already have a 20" .223 wylde that will be my standard rifle, I also have my bull 24" Grendel barrel from BHW. I decided to try to use the AR 15 platform to build this LR rifle, so my caliber choice has already been made. The purpose of the rifle is long range as I have a wylde for closer work, but as mentioned much can be done even at closer ranges. Practically I will be practicing at closer ranges because of the distance to a 1000 yard range. I do reload although so far it has only been pistol cartridges. 

I understand that practice practice and lots more practice is the only way to shoot well and I have a long way to go. But for the purpose of rifle my biggest and most important purchase is the scope, so let's have some more discussion.

[Old School 611]

The major thing to consider when buying a scope is your budget.  Buy the best you can afford.

Like I said, I shoot a Sightron SIII which at about $900 is an outstanding value.

On my 6mmAR capable of shooting 107gr bullets for extreme ranges I shoot a Nightforce Benchrest 12-42.  The Nightforce is a loaner and I wouldn't be shooting a $2k scope otherwise.

Next question. you need the capability of ranging with the scope?  If so you should have a FFP.

You mentioned a NF Benchrest in your first post. WOW!!!  price is down to $1400  Excellent deal. 

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

Lowered to $1286 now.

http://www.opticsplanet.com/nightforce-benchrest-riflescopes.html

This is what I was thinking of, for me it is an incredible amount of money to drop but I really want the only nice scope I plan on buying to be a good one. This looks like it has good value. It does not have a ZS and I don't think it's FFP. This one has ZS but still isn't FFP but is a bit more than I was hoping to spend, I can do it though if it's worth it.http://www.opticsplanet.com/nightforce-56mm-nxs-riflescope.html

[Maksim 1,504]

1 minute ago, Schrödinger's cat said:

Lowered to $1286 now.

http://www.opticsplanet.com/nightforce-benchrest-riflescopes.html

This is what I was thinking of, for me it is an incredible amount of money to drop but I really want the only nice scope I plan on buying to be a good one. This looks like it has good value. It does not have a ZS and I don't think it's FFP. This one has ZS but still isn't FFP but is a bit more than I was hoping to spend, I can do it though if it's worth it.http://www.opticsplanet.com/nightforce-56mm-nxs-riflescope.html

I should have another 10 or 12% coupon to use if you want... and go through our link... we get credit. =)

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

The BR 12- 42 is really close in price, is that a better idea ? Still no ZS or FFP. Can I shoot at 100 yards at 12x ?

[Bully 749]

28 minutes ago, Schrödinger's cat said:

The BR 12- 42 is really close in price, is that a better idea ? Still no ZS or FFP. Can I shoot at 100 yards at 12x ?

Yes.

It will negate needing a spotting scope.  As I mentioned, I shoot at 100 at 24x.  You lose field of view but you see your target and the little bitty holes that happen.  

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

4 minutes ago, Topher said:

Yes.

It will negate needing a spotting scope.  As I mentioned, I shoot at 100 at 24x.  You lose field of view but you see your target and the little bitty holes that happen.  

Thanks! Is it a better idea ? Is the NXS much better ?

[Shane45 807]

If your intentions are more benchrest style then its probably not an issue going with SFP. FFP comes into play when ranging or shooting movers.

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

How about this NXS, is it too low in magnification compared to the others ?

http://www.opticsplanet.com/nightforce-55-22x50-nxs-riflescope.html

How much better is the S&B PM II ? Is it worth eathing PB&J for another 6 months ?

http://www.opticsplanet.com/schmidt-bender-5-25x56-pm-ii-lp-riflescope.html

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

3 minutes ago, Shane45 said:

If your intentions are more benchrest style then its probably not an issue going with SFP. FFP comes into play when ranging or shooting movers.

Hmm, for now I definitely onlly see myself doing BR, how much more dineros is a comparable FFP ? Is it worth buying a used scope ?

[Maksim 1,504]

How much magnification do you really need if you were going to shoot long distance? ie 800 yards or so.

 

[Bully 749]

Take a breath.  Calm down.  You're starting to sound like me and that's never a good thing.

 

Realistically evaluate what you think you're going to be doing.  It's not easy when in the middle of making decisions like this but it's important.  I've made mistakes and they get pricey fast.  

FFP is nice for ranging.  It's what the cool kids have.  Subtensions are constant across the magnification range.  However at the low end, the reticule gets very small.  At the high end, if it's not a decent quality scope, the reticule gets thick enough that it can completely obscure a target at distance.  

SFP can still be used for ranging however the subtensions only agree at one particular magnification setting.  So, it's a bit clunkier but still quite usable.  

Remember, the military used straight 10x for a long time with great success to 1k.  Again, it's body mass not tiny groups but it's a doable thing.  

 

And, fwiw, I've gotten good glass for great prices on the used market.  Some locally and some from forums/Facebook.  

[Shane45 807]

I know BR guys like high magnification. I don't shoot BR so I really cant speak to that too much. Something to think about, an 8x scope would make 800 yards look like 100 yards. I rarely go past 14X on my scope. The more magnification you dial, the more things like mirage impact what your seeing.  There is so much to consider here that it gets pretty tricky to advise. FFP are indeed more expensive because they are more expensive to make. Scopes are the realm of compromise and also deep into the rabbit hole of diminished returns. No one can really answer for another person what things are important to them. When you really dive into the world of scopes you learn that the things you are paying for are far beyond basic considerations. For example, is a S&B worth it? YES! To someone that ALL of the things a S&B brings to the table matters to. Clarity, light gathering, chromatic aberration, tunneling, color reproduction, pincussion etc etc etc etc. Some features are likely to weigh in much more heavily to some. S&B tends to have fantastic light gathering characteristics. In fading light I could still see with my S&B when other peoples scopes went dark long before the current light level. To someone that may face that environment, that can matter a lot. But back to the basics. Clarity is important but many agree, repeatability is king. But if you buy  a quality scope, keep in mind there is always a market for it leaving you the opportunity to upgrade later.

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

14 minutes ago, Topher said:

 

Remember, the military used straight 10x for a long time with great success to 1k.  Again, it's body mass not tiny groups but it's a doable thing.  

 

And, fwiw, I've gotten good glass for great prices on the used market.  Some locally and some from forums/Facebook.  

Thank you. I saw that Tib Rex recommends a 14x, but I do want a variable power. So, I still need some more pointers.

Rob, do I remember thay you are a member at snipershide ? Do they have a good used forum ?

Chris, can you pm me or post some places to look for a used scope? 

[Shane45 807]

Snipers Hide is indeed a good place to shop used. However, just makes sure there is good feedback for the seller and be aware of the brand of scope you buy. Some scope manufacturers offer zero support to anyone but the original buyer.

[Bully 749]

Sniper's Hide- tactically oriented

Accurate Shooter- benchrest oriented

Facebook(Rifle Scope Trader)- a bit more tactically oriented but a healthy mix of both

 

Buyer beware on all of the mentioned sites.  I would send an extra 4% all day rather than Friends/Family just for the protection.  Or you can negotiate it into the pricing if something is sitting for a bit.  

 

I'm heading to CR tomorrow morning.  I have a 6-24 and a 2.5-10 pair of PST's on my rifles.  If you're free and want to meet up let me know via PM and you can put your eye to them both.  I like them both for what they offered me for the price.  Would I like to "upgrade?"  Sure would.  However I just bought a pricey piece of equipment that needs feeding and cannot, at this time, justify it.  Not to mention that both scope work extremely well for me, a non-operational hairdressing ninja.  

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

Thanks guys. I know I am getting caught up in this and as a beginner should slow down, but it's hard!

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

Anyone have any experience with this one?

http://shop.opticsplanet.com/march-optics-2-5-25-x-42mm-riflescopes.html?_iv_code=2A2-RS-MO25RS-MAR1010&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=plusbox-beta&gclid=CjwKEAjwgtTJBRDRmd6ZtLrGyxwSJAA7Fy-hAY5kbb602iswaoqCBZMwlNH_HLM-L_X2bZZ5CjxjqhoCuyrw_wcB Someone I know is pushing me towards it. Should I be worried about the light because it's only x42 ?

[Bully 749]

I'm out. 

 

That shit is so far above my paygrade that it's not even a reasonable dream at this time. 

 

Good luck and spend well. 

[Shane45 807]

March is decent but a bit in the specialized category in my view. Which.... may work on a Grendel as March tends to try and keep the size and weight down. Id look at a NF ATACR 4-16 too. I think the Vortex Razor HD is a good scope in this price range but I think the weight may be a problem on a small frame AR.