Jump to content
louu

Operator vs. Competition shooter

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, Walt of Destiny said:

The the opposite would hold true, no? Bring a top notch 3-gun guy to the raid on the bin laden compound and he'd hold his own? 

The only issue is that if he didn't he'd most probably be FUCKING DEAD.

 

I do think they would hold their own. 

Would they be experts in survival, and hand to hand combat?  Absolutely not.... but gun handling and gun safety I would not be concerned about one bit.  But that's not the point of it anyway? is it?

If we are talking about pure marksmanship and gun handling.... I think the competitive shooting circles would outshoot most "pros", operators included.... 

However if we are talking about surviving a mission where you are tasked with taking out someone some place where you are not supposed to be..... absolutely not... and I don't think ANYONE will say otherwise.... and that is the point of Rob makes in the video...

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Walt of Destiny said:

Gents, with respect...

the OP cited "operators". Not LE. I took that to mean MILITARY SO, Delta etc and in the LE realm, SWAT, Hercules and the like. I didn't take that to mean retired, WWs, and others that continue their affinity for tactical situations by competing in 3-gun matches etc. 

If the challenge is for current "operators" such as QRF, SEAL or RECON operators, then I must stand by my statements. 

If you are going to go to your nearest donut shop and challenge any LE in attendance then I'm with you.

I'm not casting aspersions on your local LEOs, but as you all state, higher level competitors intensely practice, I assumed the challenge would be to "operators" that have similar commitment to their training and equipment. 

That's awesome,

I guess I should clarify, this is going to sound mean but thats not my intention. Believe me when i say im laughing while im typing this. When im on this forum and I say operators, pretty much what I'm talking about is the guys on this forum that know everything but don't shoot matches and they pay thousands of dollars to go to a class that they will never need because they can't carry a gun. I'm talking about police officers, swat team guys, anyone who carrys a gun for work. People who dont shoot matches and think they are a better shooter than someone who does. I'm talking about the keyboard commandos that know everything and no one here has ever actually met. I'm talking about the guy who labels himself an operator and brags about it. The few real operators I know will never talk about that stuff, hell one of them almost never says a word. Now Don't go getting your panties all wadded up I would love to shoot with any of you, I'll even let you look at my guns lol.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

 

You could either think he is too old school OR that he is just keeping it real.  Either way, it's an interesting video from a guy that knows his stuff.

Dude made a lot of good points but it's called a shot timer. Without a shot timer how are you supposed to measure or compair anything? 

Aren't gun fights all about speed and accuracy? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, louu said:

Dude made a lot of good points but it's called a shot timer. Without a shot timer how are you supposed to measure or compair anything? 

Aren't gun fights all about speed and accuracy? 

Well i think his point is that in his classes, you first practice on the fundamentals... then you introduce a shot timer.

During intro USPSA classes, we first had folks practice to safely draw and reload... THEN you introduce the timer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Vlad G said:

 

This argument creeps up like every 6 months and it is an idiotic conflict we should not be having. The tactical and competition fields are different but symbiotic and complimentary.  

Come on man, it's actually been 7 months since this thread last died. I don't smoke cigars, I don't like cutting my grass and don't want to talk about that, I do all my own plumbing, I don't want to talk about my truck, no one here wants to talk about my harley (I kinda don't either, I miss my r6), I'm tired of the "getting pulled over" thread every 6 months...

So let's make fun of each other on this subject lol. At least it's gun related.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, louu said:

Come on man, it's actually been 7 months since this thread last died. I don't smoke cigars, I don't like cutting my grass and don't want to talk about that, I do all my own plumbing, I don't want to talk about my truck, no one here wants to talk about my harley (I kinda don't either, I miss my r6), I'm tired of the "getting pulled over" thread every 6 months...

So let's make fun of each other on this subject lol. At least it's gun related.

Gamers gotta game!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Keyboard Commando" vs. Competitive Action Shooter?  Sounds like a juvenile paintball scenario.  I'm glad the meaning of "Operator" in the proper context finally came out :) .  

My brother always said "Smooth IS Fast".  Clint & the Col. figured that out when you were all still in diapers, lol!  We don't need no stinkin' shot timers is right!  Do it.  Do it well enough to not miss.  Do it well enough to look very smooth & not miss.  Speed comes with smoothness :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, louu said:

That's awesome,

I guess I should clarify, this is going to sound mean but thats not my intention. Believe me when i say im laughing while im typing this. When im on this forum and I say operators, pretty much what I'm talking about is the guys on this forum that know everything but don't shoot matches and they pay thousands of dollars to go to a class that they will never need because they can't carry a gun. I'm talking about police officers, swat team guys, anyone who carrys a gun for work. People who dont shoot matches and think they are a better shooter than someone who does. I'm talking about the keyboard commandos that know everything and no one here has ever actually met. I'm talking about the guy who labels himself an operator and brags about it. The few real operators I know will never talk about that stuff, hell one of them almost never says a word. Now Don't go getting your panties all wadded up I would love to shoot with any of you, I'll even let you look at my guns lol.

 

Now I get it and I know exactly what you mean...

IMG_9080.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holy shit this is stupid. 

Being an "operator" requires a list of skills and training that goes well beyond just shooting things. Most of these thing (well those relevant to use of force during said use) involve making sure that the fight is as unfair as possible in your favor. How good that basket of skills are and how good you are at them has an effect on your survivability. 

Move and shoot style competition has refined a subset of that basket of skills to the Nth degree. Because it has, the "operator" crowd hires out of the competition world to teach them how to improve that subset of skills. Gaming, by definition is a good way to enhance those set of skills. If it were not, it would not produce people with said skills being so refined, or it would produce very few of them. It produces many of them and then produces many more with even GREATER performance with regard to said skillset just a few years later. 

As for "it's a game" No shit. Simulations and games are great ways to shorten the distance between inexperienced and refined in battle. The US military pays a LOT to create simulations and undertake wargaming. That's because it is very useful and WORKS. If you think for some magic reason it doesn't work with regards to shooting, you are an idiot. But gamification of skills learning has been going on forever. It works. 

Conversely, if you think that some running and gunning games gives you that whole basket of skills, you are also an idiot. 

And on the third hand, if you believe running and gunning classes are different because you have a chest rig and battle belt in camo, and the tactical pirouettes make all the difference, you are a special kind of idiot. Look at the content, break it down into the components it is teaching you, you will then find most of them are not anything special and just wrapped up with some WTF actions for garnish, or you pay for some narrative add ons where the instructor conveys their experience via words. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"I do think they would hold their own."

I respectfully disagree. Raz covered  a lot of my thoughts. Team coms, night ops etc etc. So much more needed for the survivability of spec ops war fighting. This was underlined for me when some D-Boys toys came into the shop. They had COMPLETELY custom switches made for their rifles enabling them to turn on each different type of light, IR laser etc etc. It was abundantly clear that at least the owners of this equipment were HEAVILY focused on low light, no light ops. I have only seen the low light / no light competitions in the rarest of circumstances. So how exactly would a competitor hold their own in real life ops doing things they likely have not been exposed to? I haven't seen much team operations in competition either so again, new ground for them. I don't hold anything against 3 gunners at all mind you. I just don't think its a ticket to the show. This is much in the same vein of how there are PSR competitors out here that are fantastic shots and have hyper developed precision shooting skills. But it doesn't make them a  sniper because the shooting skill is only a fraction of the overall skill set needed.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Shane45 said:

"I do think they would hold their own."

I respectfully disagree. Raz covered  a lot of my thoughts. Team coms, night ops etc etc. So much more needed for the survivability of spec ops war fighting. This was underlined for me when some D-Boys toys came into the shop. They had COMPLETELY custom switches made for their rifles enabling them to turn on each different type of light, IR laser etc etc. It was abundantly clear that at least the owners of this equipment were HEAVILY focused on low light, no light ops. I have only seen the low light / no light competitions in the rarest of circumstances. So how exactly would a competitor hold their own in real life ops doing things they likely have not been exposed to? I haven't seen much team operations in competition either so again, new ground for them. I don't hold anything against 3 gunners at all mind you. I just don't think its a ticket to the show. This is much in the same vein of how there are PSR competitors out here that are fantastic shots and have hyper developed precision shooting skills. But it doesn't make them a  sniper because the shooting skill is only a fraction of the overall skill set needed.

Shane... we don't disagree.  By hold their own, I simply mean they would not be instant cannon fodder or die on their first mission. lol. 

Again though, as Matt stated, and Vlad... no one is saying that being good in gun "games" will make you an honest to god "operator".... Obviously we are not talking internet commandos or your stereotypical LEO. =)

Re-read the post.... =) 

And that was also the point of the video,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Running on borrowed time and didn't get to watch the vid even though Mr. Leatham is one of my all time favorites so I was going off of OP's title. Let me summarize by saying that competition is very likely to gain you the aptitude :D But Im not sure you would survive your fist mission :D:D

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From wikipedia

 

Operator was first used by Delta Force to distinguish between operational and non-operational personnel assigned to the unit. Other special operations forces use specific names for their jobs (Army Rangers, Navy SEALs, Air Force Pararescuemen); operator is the specific term for Delta's operational personnel.

 

An " operator " not a LEO or keyboard commando or the like you say you meant does not always go into a blazing fast, reload as fast as you can fire fight, nor will it be in a small pre set stage as situations & environments change....Here's the biggest thing.... match targets DO NOT SHOOT BACK .....try your nerves and skills during actual combat and see who outshoot's who

 

I heard your matches really are top notch from guys I shoot with but this comparison & assertion borders ridiculous.

 

Sent from my SM-G925P using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Walt of Destiny said:

Gents, with respect...

the OP cited "operators". Not LE. I took that to mean MILITARY SO, Delta etc and in the LE realm, SWAT, Hercules and the like. I didn't take that to mean retired, WWs, and others that continue their affinity for tactical situations by competing in 3-gun matches etc. 

If the challenge is for current "operators" such as QRF, SEAL or RECON operators, then I must stand by my statements. 

If you are going to go to your nearest donut shop and challenge any LE in attendance then I'm with you.

I'm not casting aspersions on your local LEOs, but as you all state, higher level competitors intensely practice, I assumed the challenge would be to "operators" that have similar commitment to their training and equipment. 

I agree, using the term "operators" means 1ST SFOD-D, SEAL, MARSOC, etc.  These guys shoot more and have trained/fought more than anyone I can think of.  I have a friend that is retired 1st SFOD-D and has shot more and fought more than most of us ever will in our lifetimes combined.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So basically if you put a marsoc seal or any of the spec ops guys in our game.  We would win.  Lets say if youre classified expert master or grand master for that matter.  Cause thats what we train for.  But if you put an expert master or grand master in their fighting circle. They have the advantage. Thats what they train for.  But when it comes to regular street and beat officers we have them beat at the levels above described. That is what louu is trying to say i believe.   And i agree with that.  Also yes there are plenty on the forum that can talk the talk but cant shoot the shoot or have even tried comp level.  They should. Join us.  Its fun   We dont bite and are there to help to only enhance your abilities.  There are a few pd exceptions.  Like jon on the forums and a few fbi guys that do comps with us.   They kick ass.     Comments.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Golf battery said:

So basically if you put a marsoc seal or any of the spec ops guys in our game.  We would win.  Lets say if youre classified expert master or grand master for that matter.  Cause thats what we train for.  But if you put an expert master or grand master in their fighting circle. They have the advantage. Thats what they train for.  But when it comes to regular street and beat officers we have them beat at the levels above described. That is what louu is trying to say i believe.   And i agree with that.  Also yes there are plenty on the forum that can talk the talk but cant shoot the shoot or have even tried comp level.  They should. Join us.  Its fun   We dont bite and are there to help to only enhance your abilities.  There are a few pd exceptions.  Like jon on the forums and a few fbi guys that do comps with us.   They kick ass.     Comments.  

Jon was a shooter before he was a cop. =P 

But to your point, I would even go to say that for many, they just want to be safe with the gun, and have ZERO interest in competing.  Ie... plenty of folks drive nice cars, but have zero interest in going out to shows or racing.

Matches are a cool place to just come and hang out though. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed.   Ive known jon for awhile now.  And if anyone out there wants to take it to the next level.  Local comp shoots are low key and alot of fun. Were all on the same boat here as to firearms.  Thanks maks for  being our daddy overlord.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't understand the comparison to LE. What would make sense would be to compare with LE that also is interested in shooting. Perhaps going up against Bruce Piatt would make sense to me. I wonder if guys on the car racing forums are sitting around and saying man LE would have no chance against us in a Drag race!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Working with a few team guys, I can attest to the fact that they all advocate IDPA, and use it as a learning tool. We also have had a few competition shooters come in and give instruction. So, there is definitely merit to heavy hitters learning a thing or two from match shooters. But as many have said, intention of execution is two different stories, and is comparing apples to oranges. Shane pointed out a great point of how the operational world is starting to utilize tips that started out from match shooting, like red dots on secondary systems-- but not for the same reasons (i.e. target acquisition and speed). Red dots on pistols are being adopted in spades because of their ease of use with NVGs. In the end, its all good training-- everything else is stick measuring.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, bbk said:

Working with a few team guys, I can attest to the fact that they all advocate IDPA, and use it as a learning tool. We also have had a few competition shooters come in and give instruction. So, there is definitely merit to heavy hitters learning a thing or two from match shooters. But as many have said, intention of execution is two different stories, and is comparing apples to oranges. Shane pointed out a great point of how the operational world is starting to utilize tips that started out from match shooting, like red dots on secondary systems-- but not for the same reasons (i.e. target acquisition and speed). Red dots on pistols are being adopted in spades because of their ease of use with NVGs. In the end, its all good training-- everything else is stick measuring.

Hey bud, missed ya

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Golf battery said:

So basically if you put a marsoc seal or any of the spec ops guys in our game.  We would win.  Lets say if youre classified expert master or grand master for that matter.  Cause thats what we train for.  But if you put an expert master or grand master in their fighting circle. They have the advantage. Thats what they train for.  But when it comes to regular street and beat officers we have them beat at the levels above described. That is what louu is trying to say i believe.   And i agree with that.  Also yes there are plenty on the forum that can talk the talk but cant shoot the shoot or have even tried comp level.  They should. Join us.  Its fun   We dont bite and are there to help to only enhance your abilities.  There are a few pd exceptions.  Like jon on the forums and a few fbi guys that do comps with us.   They kick ass.     Comments.  

That's the way you debate! 

 

Also what I'm saying is I could probably out shoot any of the people Im talking about in the second post on this page (wtf happenedto the post numbers?) At any of the drills they do. Of course if I do beat them I would talk so much shit that they would pull me over on the way home. Guess I better read the dozens of "getting pulled over" threads...

I know it sounds like I'm being really cocky but I'm not. If we get together I'll do all I can do to help you out so you could win and I expect the same from you. I'm no expert by far but there is a few things I know to be fact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Shane45 said:

I don't understand the comparison to LE. What would make sense would be to compare with LE that also is interested in shooting. Perhaps going up against Bruce Piatt would make sense to me. I wonder if guys on the car racing forums are sitting around and saying man LE would have no chance against us in a Drag race!

I believe that this shit comes up repeatedly for a few reasons. 

1) Shooting involves RKBA. The context of RKBA arguments in the public eye has inherent to it the notion that LEO are somehow inherently better/safer/more trustworthy/more competent than the average gun owner. This view treats LE as a monolithic entity when reality is that most LE are not all that good at the shooting bits. Some are awesome. Too many couldn't hit the ground given sufficient gravity, distance and time. Regardless, there isn't a lot of public discourse where people make the unfounded claim that LE are the only ones capable of operating a motor vehicle in public, so it tends to not attract this shit. 

2) Theres always some trainer fucktard(s) pushing a brand of "everyone who didn't do X, Y, or Z etc. isn't a REAL instructor and can't teach you anything but failure". They are of course, as mentioned, fucktards, and that long list of must have been there and done that usually peters out with "and was born to my mom on date X" and the real reason for it isn't to make sure the public avoids sham instructors, but because they are running a business that makes more money if they can establish a cult of personality. 

3) We exist at a point and time where there's a cult of tactical beard wearers who fetishize the "operator" lifestyle, whatever the fuck that is. They talk shit about a lot of groups while paying people who badmouth anyone who hasn't been there and done that to run fantasy camps for them. Then they say stupid shit like competition will get you killed while doing tactical pirouettes on a common firing line. It's lather rinse repeat from when you had to wear a fishing vest and yellow sunglasses to do it. They do a lot of their bullshit as proxy, so it eventually always results in theoretical pissing matches regarding the various sides they pit against each other. 

4) People get bored and talk shit. 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, raz-0 said:

I believe that this shit comes up repeatedly for a few reasons. 

1) Shooting involves RKBA. The context of RKBA arguments in the public eye has inherent to it the notion that LEO are somehow inherently better/safer/more trustworthy/more competent than the average gun owner. This view treats LE as a monolithic entity when reality is that most LE are not all that good at the shooting bits. Some are awesome. Too many couldn't hit the ground given sufficient gravity, distance and time. Regardless, there isn't a lot of public discourse where people make the unfounded claim that LE are the only ones capable of operating a motor vehicle in public, so it tends to not attract this shit. 

2) Theres always some trainer fucktard(s) pushing a brand of "everyone who didn't do X, Y, or Z etc. isn't a REAL instructor and can't teach you anything but failure". They are of course, as mentioned, fucktards, and that long list of must have been there and done that usually peters out with "and was born to my mom on date X" and the real reason for it isn't to make sure the public avoids sham instructors, but because they are running a business that makes more money if they can establish a cult of personality. 

3) We exist at a point and time where there's a cult of tactical beard wearers who fetishize the "operator" lifestyle, whatever the fuck that is. They talk shit about a lot of groups while paying people who badmouth anyone who hasn't been there and done that to run fantasy camps for them. Then they say stupid shit like competition will get you killed while doing tactical pirouettes on a common firing line. It's lather rinse repeat from when you had to wear a fishing vest and yellow sunglasses to do it. They do a lot of their bullshit as proxy, so it eventually always results in theoretical pissing matches regarding the various sides they pit against each other. 

4) People get bored and talk shit. 

 

Omfg, Classic Matt. 

Salut

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...