Operator vs. Competition shooter

[louu 399]

Well since we're doing the "getting pulled over" thread again for the hundredth time and I'm really bored I'm going to start the operator vs competition shooter thread again. 

 

Was just browsing youtube and found this video 

 

I'm a competition shooter and I feel confident I can beat any operator at a 3 gun match (even though I don't get to shoot nearly as much as I use to because of the new baby). As far as all the weird ass games the operators do to try to train for the real thing,,, I feel that would be no problem for me either because  my gun handling is so second nature so all I would have to react to or think about  (yeah I know there is no time to think in a gun fight) is tactical advantage. 

To me the biggest downfall of all the operators is they don't shoot enough and when they do it's a very repetitive and one sided  drill. Shooting matches are all completly different and there is always different challenges to face.  

Ah shit I lost my tran of thought after that diaper change. ...

Anyway let's hear your thoughts on this.

 

Also this is an open challenge to any operator who wants to come out and try our 3 gun match thinking you are going to beat me. Later you can come at me with your training or challenge and I'll shut you down there to.

[Vicious 138]

Hm, paintball would be the better way to settle this, but with no fear of death, I think that would be pointless, too.

The biggest difference between the two is that you train to make shots at set distances and on planned course. 

These "operators" train for the unknown.

You say a comp. shooter would do better, but I'm sure that some of the police that have walked up to a car and eaten a bullet have shot competitively too. It is a completely different game when misses, bad positioning and rash judgement can cost you everything.

If you miss a target, you lose points. If I miss a target, I can lose my job and/or freedom. With that in mind, yes... we train differently.

[Shane45 807]

Your 3 gun match is still on the game side of the fence. Are you saying you can beat an Operator at a game? Ok. But I bet the Operator can beat you at war!

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Define "beat"?

And where is this "event" happening?  And who is your adversary?  What are you armed with?  And what is he/she armed with?

[Matroskin 29]

IMO its like asking who will win in the match between Judo practitioner and Boxer

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[Ray Ray 3,566]

If i've learning anything in my 37 years of existence, it's that ANYONE can beat ANYONE at ANYTIME.  So, this is moot.

[Golf battery 1,223]

Louu agreed.  Well especially when it comes to local or swat pd compared to a expert or master in idpa/uspsa/ipsc.  We train more than most beat cops do.  For sure. 

[Vicious 138]

You are going to be quicker because you don't have a decision making process... Find target, shoot. That type of training works for your application. Put a living person next to your target and see if your times are effected.

 

Different means to different ends.

 

At your next match try a level 3 holster, kevlar vest and duty belt (weighed down with a baton, cuffs, flashlight, radio, mag pouch, OC and medical pouch). Don't forget to use a box stock gun. Don't look at the course of fire until you're up either. 

Actually, disregard. It still wouldn't introduce stress.

[tattooo 220]

Drop mic Vicioious.....

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[Vlad G 345]

6 hours ago, Vicious said:

You are going to be quicker because you don't have a decision making process... Find target, shoot. That type of training works for your application. Put a living person next to your target and see if your times are effected.

Different means to different ends.

At your next match try a level 3 holster, kevlar vest and duty belt (weighed down with a baton, cuffs, flashlight, radio, mag pouch, OC and medical pouch). Don't forget to use a box stock gun. Don't look at the course of fire until you're up either. 

Actually, disregard. It still wouldn't introduce stress.

Games are games, and fights are fights, different things.

However, the above makes a few assumption I personally found to be false.

 

1) Yes, competition shooters MOST of the time know the stage. Also, most of the time they have 5min to calculate all possible scenarios, movement, reload plans, etc. A good shooter may run 5-10 plans through his mind before coming to the line and executing the one he or she believes is best.  They do that for hundreds of stages. Eventually they get pretty damn good at looking a situation and making a plan REAL quick.

2) I don't think there is any situation in which being able to handle your equipment with no thought is not a useful skill. I have met very few people outside the competitive arena that are one with their equipment, and yes some of them were cops or military, HE for example is completely at home with gear, but most police and military shooters I've met are actually really not at that level.  Yes it is game, but I can't think of a situation where being completely in tune with your gear is a bad thing.

3) Most 3gun shooters I know use  retention holster, either level 2 or 3. No one wants their gun re-positioning itself into a bush while running around the woods. Some shoot customs guns, some do not. I do ok with my darn near stock Glock. Mostly it is not the equipment but the shooter, within reason.

4) My 3gun belt is not a heck of a lot different then a duty belt. At any point it may carry quite a few pounds of weight, between handgun, multiple mags for it and rifle and a maybe a box of 12ga or more. It is not light, but you are right on the vest and other things

5) Stress is a strange thing, but every competitor I know gets stressed applied profusely , they almost all get adrenaline dumps, jitters, stomach butterflies, some barely sleep before major matches, all the flight or fight responses are in play if you are serious about it, and you get to dwell on it for minutes or hours or sometime days. You get to build up that stress and continuously balance with your mental game. I know it is hard to believe unless your go through it, but at the higher levels of competition stress and dealing with it are critical.

 

Again, games are games and fights are fights. To many game shooters assume they would be awesome tier -5 ninja face shooters, but the also to many of the folks on the other side of the equation have a poor understanding what is involved in the competitive shooting world.

[louu 399]

11 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

Define "beat"?

And where is this "event" happening?  And who is your adversary?  What are you armed with?  And what is he/she armed with?

The 4th Sunday of every month at 8am in Quinton NJ, here is our website http://www.quinton3gun.com/index.php rifle, pistol and shotgun. Any questions feel free to ask.

[Maksim 1,504]

1 hour ago, Vlad G said:

Games are games, and fights are fights, different things.

However, the above makes a few assumption I personally found to be false.

 

1) Yes, competition shooters MOST of the time know the stage. Also, most of the time they have 5min to calculate all possible scenarios, movement, reload plans, etc. A good shooter may run 5-10 plans through his mind before coming to the line and executing the one he or she believes is best.  They do that for hundreds of stages. Eventually they get pretty damn good at looking a situation and making a plan REAL quick.

2) I don't think there is any situation in which being able to handle your equipment with no thought is not a useful skill. I have met very few people outside the competitive arena that are one with their equipment, and yes some of them were cops or military, HE for example is completely at home with gear, but most police and military shooters I've met are actually really not at that level.  Yes it is game, but I can't think of a situation where being completely in tune with your gear is a bad thing.

3) Most 3gun shooters I know use  retention holster, either level 2 or 3. No one wants their gun re-positioning itself into a bush while running around the woods. Some shoot customs guns, some do not. I do ok with my darn near stock Glock. Mostly it is not the equipment but the shooter, within reason.

4) My 3gun belt is not a heck of a lot different then a duty belt. At any point it may carry quite a few pounds of weight, between handgun, multiple mags for it and rifle and a maybe a box of 12ga or more. It is not light, but you are right on the vest and other things

5) Stress is a strange thing, but every competitor I know gets stressed applied profusely , they almost all get adrenaline dumps, jitters, stomach butterflies, some barely sleep before major matches, all the flight or fight responses are in play if you are serious about it, and you get to dwell on it for minutes or hours or sometime days. You get to build up that stress and continuously balance with your mental game. I know it is hard to believe unless your go through it, but at the higher levels of competition stress and dealing with it are critical.

 

Again, games are games and fights are fights. To many game shooters assume they would be awesome tier -5 ninja face shooters, but the also to many of the folks on the other side of the equation have a poor understanding what is involved in the competitive shooting world.

Could not have said it better.

I have a ton of Respect for LEO and the job that they do, real life risks, especially those working in rougher areas.... but I also know the LEO represented on the forum... ARE NOT your typical cops with how they feel about guns.

I know of 2 cops who even dread going for qualifications or having to practice (NYC) and 1 who even hated to have to wear a gun. 

At various matches over the years I have met and run into shooters who just happen to be LEO.... and LEO who just happened to go try out a match.  The difference is vast.

I would agree that the average LEO, by nature of the firearm requirement would be a better marksman than the average gun owner..... BUT.... the average guy/gal who goes to shoot any action type match (USPSA/IDPA/3 Gun) would be a better marksman than the average LEO.

So for "gun skills", I would give it to the gamers.

NOW... if we are talking about WAR and not getting killed in zombie apocolypse.... wait.... Zombies don't soot back.  Ok, in WAR or some natural disaster, I would easily agree than an LEO would be more likely to survive.  Match folks do not get shot back at.....    But if it is Zombies.... gamers all the way. =)

[Walt of Destiny 412]

"Everyone has a plan 'til they get punched in the mouth. "

Mike Tyson

[Maksim 1,504]

1 minute ago, Walt of Destiny said:

"Everyone has a plan 'til they get punched in the mouth. "

Mike Tyson

YES... and that is when habits take over.

I have shot 3 or 4 USPSA Nationals over the years, and one thing I learned... is that quite often a stage plan goes out the window on pesky steel (poppers/activators) and that is when shooting ability takes over, PARTICULARLY in NJ or in divisions where you are magazine capacity constrained, where you have 10 round magazine capacities and a miss may mean an extra reload or running the gun dry.

So when you do miss, your discipline takes over knowing, "hey I missed, I need to reload earlier," or "I missed, this was a possibility, I have to..."

The top level guys are at a tier of their own though.

In any case... you have competitive shooters going to teach LEO classes.... =)  You don't have LEO coming to teach USPSA/3 gun folks.

It's just different. 

Great topic though. 

[Walt of Destiny 412]

Sorry guys. No comparison. Nor should there be. Anything that takes a life or death situation and makes it anything less than a life or death situation is plain apples & oranges. 

Anyone with any real experience wouldn't entertain the "challenge".

Kids that are great on racing video games,  get the "wins" to uplevel their cars and such,  think they are drivers.  They shit themselves in the passenger seat taking a turn at 8/10ths. I realize one is a video game and one is real life. That's not the camparison I'm making. It's the competitors attitude that always discounts the "I can die here, today" thought process. 

I agree that competitive 3-gun shooters are next-level pros. The John Wick 2 movie does a great job showing the tactical advantages of 3-gun training. But C'mon. I could be wrong and frequently am. 

[louu 399]

Vlad you owned this thread, explained the stress perfectly. 

For me I get overly stressed out on our match weekend and I get zero sleep. I'm there setting up from 5 till dark on Saturday, then back as soon as the sun comes up. Finish setting up, answer a hundred questions, then have the shooter briefing,  then answer all the questions that I just answered during the brief another hundred times, I worry way to much about anyone getting hurt and anyone cheating, did I mention the questions?

Then while all of this is going on I have no time to think about the stage I'm about to shoot so I step to the line and just wing it. Also as soon as Im about to go people are still asking me all kinds of questions. During my short walk to the line I always get an adrenaline dump to the point where I'm about to start punching the targets and I can't even see straight .... yet I still win

Now can anyone explain how operator drills mimic the real thing or stress?

Vicious,

Believe it or not I have never actually shot a paintball gun. Truth be told I was never really a gun guy. I grew up shooting clays here and there and never took it seriously at all. I stumbled into this competitive shooting thing almost on accident. I'm a retired motocrosser and just a really competitive person. 

So how do we find out who is better without actually shooting each other. We can all shoot a match and see who wins. Then we can setup some of the drills that people train with and see who does it faster and more accurately.

 

[Maksim 1,504]

9 minutes ago, Walt of Destiny said:

Sorry guys. No comparison. Nor should there be. Anything that takes a life or death situation and makes it anything less than a life or death situation is plain apples & oranges. 

Anyone with any real experience wouldn't entertain the "challenge".

Kids that are great on racing video games,  get the "wins" to uplevel their cars and such,  think they are drivers.  They shit themselves in the passenger seat taking a turn at 8/10ths. I realize one is a video game and one is real life. That's not the camparison I'm making. It's the competitors attitude that always discounts the "I can die here, today" thought process. 

I agree that competitive 3-gun shooters are next-level pros. The John Wick 2 movie does a great job showing the tactical advantages of 3-gun training. But C'mon. I could be wrong and frequently am. 

So.... flight simulators are also BS? =)

I don't think anyone is talking about Video games... 

Anyone who plays Counter Strike or COD vs Operator.... yes, your thread would apply to.  

Clicking a mouse button and keyboard is not war....

.... but 3 Gun or even practical shooting like IDPA.... is more to real life.

and.... if we agree that having full control and knowledge of your weapon is important.... then there is nothing better than matches... where shots to 15 yards are often point shooting and malfunction drills are second nature and are ALL done on the clock.

(and if you have shot out in the desert... I promise... bullets ARE flying back past you as ricochets). lol. 

 

Edit:  Don't forget the countless hours of dry fire and drawing practice your typical match gal/guy will be doing. 

[Maksim 1,504]

So okay... watch the video... Robby speaks the truth. =) and everything we talked about here.... 

[louu 399]

33 minutes ago, Maksim said:

 

I have a ton of Respect for LEO and the job that they do, real life risks, especially those working in rougher areas.... 

 

Same here, I think police should be required to shoot matches once and a while. I read a story years ago about a cop that had almost never practiced and had a feeling one night that he should do some dry fire and draws. The next day he had to defend himself and he credited the practice the night before saving his life.

My biggest though on the whole subject is gun handling has to be second nature.

[louu 399]

Vlad, you shooting a Glock now? What happened to the m&p?

[Vicious 138]

56 minutes ago, Walt of Destiny said:

"Everyone has a plan 'til they get punched in the mouth. "

Mike Tyson

I love that line, and it sums it up in the best way. I have taken a my fair share of punches in training and thrown them all back (literally), and the real (or perceived) threat of injury changes the game. Even though you take and throw real punches in training, the real thing feels so much more... real. Lol It turns your senses way up.

I have been stressed in a competitive scenario before. 3 years of varsity soccer and track and field. No stranger to it. It will never compare to the stress and high you get when you need to act IDoL yours or another. The ability to respond accordingly and reasonably is why some can and some cannot.

The OP specifies "operators," so I may be off topic with the LE comparison. These "operators" don't just shoot, they get things done. Until you can be dropped from a plane, swim some untold distance with your combat load out/ mission vital equipment, ruck said equipment 16 clicks through inhospitable conditions, camp out overnight with no lights/ fire, accomplish your task and evac. without losing your life, you as a competitive shooter are not better than the blanket term "operator" in their world.

Ever watch the vids on YouTube where real warfighters play Call of Duty? I'll save you the time, they tend to suck. Assuming you have no military background, I would say dropped into the above scenario you too, sir, would suck. The comparison has to go both ways.

Forget the whole bullets flying thing. Say your loved one (wife, husband, child) goes downstairs late at night to your (let's assume large) first floor to find their iPad or lesser electronic entertainment device. You hear someone break in through a window and they scream. You call out and get no response... Hope all that room clearing you did at that 3 gun match helps. See where this is going?

Lol, sorry for the essays. I just think it is an interesting topic. Overall, all of the points are pretty moot because any self defense scenario outside of military and law enforcement stuff is typically over in a few shots anyway. Some loud bangs, a trip to the e.r. for at least one, and tinnitus for all in proximity.

[Vlad G 345]

19 minutes ago, Walt of Destiny said:

Anyone with any real experience wouldn't entertain the "challenge".

So .. all the marksmanship teams of all the military branches that attend all the major 3gun matches? All the guys I met with missing limbs and eyes and other injuries obtained during the recent unpleasantness that shoot 3gun ? All the LEO/swat people I meet shooting matches?

You mean all those guys who then take what they learned back to their Units to teach others?

I guess their experience is not real. 

This argument creeps up like every 6 months and it is an idiotic conflict we should not be having. The tactical and competition fields are different but symbiotic and complimentary.  We can all learn from each other and the smart people on either side do. When the tactical world is now getting all sorts of moist over Roland Specials, they forget that 10 years ago they were dismissing gamers with their comp'ed and red doted pistols. Never mind that the competition world debugged and developed the hardware that they are lusting over today, and they it has been decades to evolution to bring it current state. Never mind, that the race rifles of two decades ago are now the hotness of the tactical world with free floated handguards, low power variable scopes, offset sights, etc. The average competitor I know shoots more in a year the most LEOs do over their entire career, the gear you trust your life to, competitor have worn out and broken and provided feedback to the manufactures in how to make it better. 

[Vlad G 345]

15 minutes ago, louu said:

Vlad, you shooting a Glock now? What happened to the m&p?

I wore it out.  It is north of 125k rounds and I got tiered of trying to get SW to get me parts they don't want to sell for stupid reasons. At least with a Glock brand glock (as opposed to a SW brand glock) I can build one with a credit card and a web browser without buying a single Glock brand part if I need to. 

[Maksim 1,504]

5 minutes ago, Vlad G said:

So .. all the marksmanship teams of all the military branches that attend all the major 3gun matches? All the guys I met with missing limbs and eyes and other injuries obtained during the recent unpleasantness that shoot 3gun ? All the LEO/swat people I meet shooting matches?

You mean all those guys who then take what they learned back to their Units to teach others?

I guess their experience is not real. 

This argument creeps up like every 6 months and it is an idiotic conflict we should not be having. The tactical and competition fields are different but symbiotic and complimentary.  We can all learn from each other and the smart people on either side do. When the tactical world is now getting all sorts of moist over Roland Specials, they forget that 10 years ago they were dismissing gamers with their comp'ed and red doted pistols. Never mind that the competition world debugged and developed the hardware that they are lusting over today, and they it has been decades to evolution to bring it current state. Never mind, that the race rifles of two decades ago are now the hotness of the tactical world with free floated handguards, low power variable scopes, offset sights, etc. The average competitor I know shoots more in a year the most LEOs do over their entire career, the gear you trust your life to, competitor have worn out and broken and provided feedback to the manufactures in how to make it better. 

Bolded for focus.

In another post here, Vlad just mentioned that he put over 120k rounds through his M&P and wore it out....

Out of curiosity.. just to venture a guess.... who do we think is more comfortable with an M&P.... Vlad with that much experience or an average LEO whose duty gun happens to be an M&P.

While I am not at 120k rounds on a single gun, I am about there between my three guns I use for matches, SVI 2011, CZ SP01 and S&W 1911.  Those thousands of rounds just build muscle memory.

More than that, as Vlad pointed out.... match shooters will often run their gear to the breaking point to learn the limits.

It is funny though, I have not heard the term "Roland Special".... but about 6 years ago when I started shooting USPSA... it was just an "Open Glock".... a glock with a red dot and a comp.

Such a gun would be laughed at here... 8 years ago.

Now they are a hot commodity in the tactical crowds? Heh....  Where were they 10 years ago? =)

You also see Glock, S&W and others come out with guns that have ported slides for weight savings and slide cuts to mount a red dot? Heh.

I guess in 5 to 10 years we will see flared magwells, grip tape and extended based plates on the "cool" guns.... oh wait... they are already here.

[Walt of Destiny 412]

35 minutes ago, Vlad G said:

So .. all the marksmanship teams of all the military branches that attend all the major 3gun matches? All the guys I met with missing limbs and eyes and other injuries obtained during the recent unpleasantness that shoot 3gun ? All the LEO/swat people I meet shooting matches?

You mean all those guys who then take what they learned back to their Units to teach others?

I guess their experience is not real. 

This argument creeps up like every 6 months and it is an idiotic conflict we should not be having. The tactical and competition fields are different but symbiotic and complimentary.  We can all learn from each other and the smart people on either side do. When the tactical world is now getting all sorts of moist over Roland Specials, they forget that 10 years ago they were dismissing gamers with their comp'ed and red doted pistols. Never mind that the competition world debugged and developed the hardware that they are lusting over today, and they it has been decades to evolution to bring it current state. Never mind, that the race rifles of two decades ago are now the hotness of the tactical world with free floated handguards, low power variable scopes, offset sights, etc. The average competitor I know shoots more in a year the most LEOs do over their entire career, the gear you trust your life to, competitor have worn out and broken and provided feedback to the manufactures in how to make it better. 

Gents, with respect...

the OP cited "operators". Not LE. I took that to mean MILITARY SO, Delta etc and in the LE realm, SWAT, Hercules and the like. I didn't take that to mean retired, WWs, and others that continue their affinity for tactical situations by competing in 3-gun matches etc. 

If the challenge is for current "operators" such as QRF, SEAL or RECON operators, then I must stand by my statements. 

If you are going to go to your nearest donut shop and challenge any LE in attendance then I'm with you.

I'm not casting aspersions on your local LEOs, but as you all state, higher level competitors intensely practice, I assumed the challenge would be to "operators" that have similar commitment to their training and equipment. 

[tattooo 220]

Guys this is just a ploy to drum up more shooters to the match he has been promoting / running....lol

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[Maksim 1,504]

31 minutes ago, Walt of Destiny said:

Gents, with respect...

the OP cited "operators". Not LE. I took that to mean MILITARY SO, Delta etc and in the LE realm, SWAT, Hercules and the like. I didn't take that to mean retired, WWs, and others that continue their affinity for tactical situations by competing in 3-gun matches etc. 

If the challenge is for current "operators" such as QRF, SEAL or RECON operators, then I must stand by my statements. 

If you are going to go to your nearest donut shop and challenge any LE in attendance then I'm with you.

I'm not casting aspersions on your local LEOs, but as you all state, higher level competitors intensely practice, I assumed the challenge would be to "operators" that have similar commitment to their training and equipment. 

Good point, but the Video referred to LEO... so yes.

The few "operators" I do know, do successfully combine survival and have a VERY good marksmanship ability.   Would they be top dog in a 3 gun match?  No... but they would not really be held back. 

[Ray Ray 3,566]

 

You could either think he is too old school OR that he is just keeping it real.  Either way, it's an interesting video from a guy that knows his stuff.

[Walt of Destiny 412]

2 minutes ago, Maksim said:

Good point, but the Video referred to LEO... so yes.

The few "operators" I do know, do successfully combine survival and have a VERY good marksmanship ability.   Would they be top dog in a 3 gun match?  No... but they would not really be held back. 

The the opposite would hold true, no? Bring a top notch 3-gun guy to the raid on the bin laden compound and he'd hold his own? 

The only issue is that if he didn't he'd most probably be FUCKING DEAD.

 

[Vlad G 345]

4 minutes ago, Walt of Destiny said:

The only issue is that if he didn't he'd most probably be FUCKING DEAD.

Presumably anyone who wouldn't would be dead too?

Again, they are different things and anyone saying they are the same is nuts, but trust me this, there is a significant crossover between the two camps.