Can gun games get you killed? Part 2

[Ray Ray 3,566]

This thread was interesting and I thought it fits in with our current discussions about training and competition shooting.

Thanks @Shane45

[raz-0 1,259]

The thread was fucking stupid and dredging them up is boring as shit. Howabout you ask about 9mm vs .45 again? 

Last I checked none of the people asked ,essentially, to put up or shut up ever actually put up. 

Skimming it again, I can also add being irked by the constant reference to IDPA and training to take cover. The real world has shit all for cover, it has concealment. Also every comment about how to be good at IDPA is wrong. You win IDPA by beign fast enough that the SOs can't call your rule breaking, that's about it. Every place you can you say fuck the tactical reload and dump rounds fast and claim you were making up shots. You foot fault cover all over the fucking place but do it blazing fast. IDPA separates jack and shit from USPSA performance. Go look at the top IDPA shooters. They are almost entirely USPSA shooters. 

Beyond that, there is almost zero understanding in threads like that of training for a single option or multiple options from people who should know better. Almost every account I have ever read of training scars having injurious or fatal results comes down to training insisting on a single option of execution for a task. 

I've run into multiple examples of people in real world situations crediting their practice at run and gun games for giving them the tools to survive a violent situation. Tools they weren't getting elsewhere.  I've read articles by infantry setting up USPSA style matches on deployment because they get near zero handgun training. We have had LEOs come to matches because they can't get more training form their department and want practice time. We have had LEOs SENT to matches because their department wanted them getting more trigger time and just had an ammo budget. No, competition isn't the only place you can get said skills, but it is widely accessible and relatively affordable, and it beats the shit out of static range shooting, and you'll figure out things about how you do stuff that you won't in a class with a common firing line. 

It's virtually always a shittily articulated argument with the vast majority of people on the gun games get you killed side coming up with shit evidence and doing things like completely misunderstanding fine vs gross motor skills and referencing made up crap like muscle memory, which generally indicates they don't understand what is going on there either. Which is unfortunate, because if they were critiquing from a position of actually understanding that shit it would be highly informative. 

So I'll put in my $0.02

Fuck you unless you take the burden of proof of your position on yourself instead of the bullshit move of making it someone else's problem to disprove your two sentence theory. 

 

 

[fatty 241]

DAMN.

[Shane45 807]

In skimming through that thread, I can see some points just didn't seem to get through, either I didn't explain well enough or some people were just not getting the overall viewpoint. Particularly that I do see tremendous value in competition, but I have concerns about some things that competition brings with it. That has not changed. However, I did find a very good article from Paul H. that I think does a very good job of articulating a lot of these points. This will likely be my only post as this topic is just plain played out for me.

http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/training_for_the_real_fight.pdf

 

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Jesus Christ, I'm just trying to keep this place interesting.  Calm down people.  Let's go back to talking about bullshit and nonsense. 

[raz-0 1,259]

OK response to the article, which at least tries. 

1) Carrying too much shit: This is not a competitor problem. The author's preferred amount of shit to carry is approximately the amount of shit competitors carry. 

2) Engaging multiple targets in the open: His argument... you can't focus on more than one thing at a time in a complex manner. If really discussing it in detail, he should probably bring the OODA loop into it about here. But here's the kicker. Competitors, when faced with a situation they can't premeditate operate under normal human limits. That includes the level of focus needed to decide what to do next. Competition does let you practice an O and an A out of that loop to improve your speed there, but most competitors forced to deal with novel situations will not proceed into maximal target exposure knowingly/intentionally. It has nothing to do with training for threat, it has to do with simply having the D step take over when presented with enough information that the D step seems really pressing. I doubt it's as much of a liability as people think. What it is NOT though is practicing advantageous behavior for assessing a novel situation. I would regard that as tactics, which competition isn't really training you in, even to scar you. I would argue that a competition shooter might not fare as well as someone well trained and practiced in good tactics. 

3) Not using cover. There is precious little cover in the modern world. It's concealment, and in terms of people shooting at you, how useful is it. Which is worse not using concealment to maximal effect or running around pretending it will stop bullets? Did the guys he see stop in the open because of competition? Or did they stop in the open because they felt they had reached a point where they had to take the risk of engaging vs the risk of exposure while seeking concealment and they chose poorly? (Or chose well in a totally shit situation)  If you see a sufficiency of people making a mistake who are doing it without being competitive shooters, attributing the behavior to competition seems pretty sketchy. Since it's not data but anecdotal evidence on his part, I'd expect he knew the people well enough to determine if they were competition shooters. 

IMO if you are training to use concealment as cover, you are engaging in security by obscurity. It may be aided by instinctual reaction that if you can't see it you can't act on it, but inherently if you aren't just using poor terminology, your strategy is faith in that psychological perception rather than simple physics. If you can do as the author says and arrange a shooting rather than a gunfight, that's probably sufficient. It might work out poorly when it isn't a shooting though. 

4) Shooting on the move. It's a useful skill to have. If you stick with competitive shooting to be competitive, you will find that the use of it is selective and very often the answer is don't do it. This is something the competitive world has a different opinion on what optimal is a now than it did a decade or so ago. It's not an ingrained, single option, always do this strategy these days. Kind of like competition has moved away from cadence shooting to go faster. Some folks may leave making the shoot on the move decision to the premeditated stage plan. Some folks may make the decision rapidly while evaluating progress ont he course of fire. Which I'd argue is practice at cycling through the OODA loop rapidly. Possibly effectively if you don't choose wrong. 

5) Speed and closing with a target. There is an interesting conversation to be had there. I can't find it at the moment, but I was reading an interesting set of experiments being conducted regarding evasive maneuvers. A lot of the results were counter intuitive. I believe this is referencing one of them: https://survivallife.com/running-zigzag-pattern-actually-effective/ . That aside, the author (and the tests) say move fast. Guess what run and gun games tell you you need to learn and train to be able to do? 

The author and I do agree that step one is do everything to make it an unfair fight in your advantage before the shooting starts. That takes a number of skills competition doesn't teach. I don't take the position competition is sufficient. I take the position that it isn't by and large negative work and beats that shit out of doing nothing and never learning or simply letting skills atrophy. Where I'm open to the notion of it being negative work is if one can point out a skill or tactic involved in making that fight unfair that competition negatively impacts. 

I will also point out that it's hard to tell if the guy is saying "I shot competitively, but you shouldn't it'll get you killed when it didn't get me killed," or if he is saying "don't let competition supplant other skills you need to be learning, especially without realizing it."  The former is kind of hard to swallow, especially hearing it over and over again from people who engaged in competition and didn't die form it. The latter I fully agree with. 

 

[Ray Ray 3,566]

My biggest issues with competition shooting is that it rewards bad decisions.

Dropping a semi loaded magazine is something you would NEVER do if you were in a fight for your life.  But it's done regularly in USPSA. 

Another issue I have is "unload and show clear."  Can't we move past this and just consider all guns loaded, since we do that anyway?  I know, almost every range in NJ is a cold range, but there is an exception.  When there is a training class for personal defense or protection.  The instructors want the guns loaded, so you can get comfortable.  I'm sure I'll get flack for that one, so good.  I want it.

I'm sure I have more, but I'll digress.

[raz-0 1,259]

So reloads with retention while people are shooting at you? 

I'm guessing the answer is think about and do whatever the fuck you want when you have the time and engage your fucking brain. When people are shooting at you keep shooting back at them until you run out of bullets, then add more bullets. 

 

As for unload show clear, don't be an idiot about it. Unload when someone tells you to unload or key off of some stimulus, internal command rather than just dumping a mag and jacking out the last round. It's not hard, it's off the clock, and it's not penalized. 

No actually come up with more rather than copping out cause you can't think of it. You made a frikin thread about it and you are all "But I digress". 

Once again prove your fucking point or shut the fuck up. Stop pretending you are proving your point while copping out. 

[tattooo 220]

Jesus Christ, I'm just trying to keep this place interesting.  Calm down people.  Let's go back to talking about bullshit and nonsense. 

Tell em Ray.....lol

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[Barms 98]

What I like about unload and clear is that it's not about making the shooter safer it's about making everybody else feel safer at the range.

as I'm getting older I'm more and more worried about OTHER people mistakes.  I can't wait for WP range to open and members only floor.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

2 hours ago, Barms said:

What I like about unload and clear is that it's not about making the shooter safer it's about making everybody else feel safer at the range.

as I'm getting older I'm more and more worried about OTHER people mistakes.  I can't wait for WP range to open and members only floor.

The key word you used, "FEEL".

Your feelings really don't matter, and UNLOAD AND SHOW CLEAR isn't actually safe.  It's just words.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

UNLOAD AND SHOW CLEAR would have done nothing for this guy.   

We are shooting guns, follow the 4 simple rules that we all SHOULD know and that's it.

[tattooo 220]

WTF was that dude doing pasting targets on a hot range ??

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[Ray Ray 3,566]

9 hours ago, tattooo said:

WTF was that dude doing pasting targets on a hot range ??

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Who knows, but I'm sure he "FELT safe when he was marking those cardboard targets.  But in reality, he almost got shot.  

[tattooo 220]

Who knows, but I'm sure he "FELT safe when he was marking those cardboard targets.  But in reality, he almost got shot.  

He sure did....that was close.

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[Vlad G 345]

On 6/8/2017 at 8:40 PM, Ray Ray said:

The key word you used, "FEEL".

Your feelings really don't matter, and UNLOAD AND SHOW CLEAR isn't actually safe.  It's just words.

That is a completely retarded statement. Im still here getting dumber just looking at what you wrote. You lack of understanding on the issue is simply making me trying to explain to you like trying to read programing languages manuals to civet.

 

For the rest of the audience playing along at home, the skill level of the average shooter walking into most competitions is atrocious. I have had to stop multiple new shooters from drawing their guns at me to show them to me. I have had to explain to people what the safeties do on their gun. I have had to show people how to remove the magazine from their gun. I have had to repeatedly how people how to not point the gun at their face while loading it.

Sure, those are the extreme examples of lack of skill or understanding of fundamental gun safety rules or mechanical operation of simple devices, but it happens, and everyone start new and inexperienced, so we have rules were we don't allow the shooter to put or keep boom pills in his boom stick unsupervised, when there are 50-300 people around rubbing their boom sticks because sooner or later someone is going to fuck up. It's not only my concern for going home with the same number of holes I came in with, but also a liability and insurance issue, if some butter fingered rando shoots his own dick off at a match, you can bet that match is going to have some issues continuing to exist, and I rather that not happen.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Interesting how a difference of opinion makes people so butt hurt.  You could make the argument that if you don't have a holster for your pistol then maybe you should unload it.  But that's the only time.  

By dumbing down the rules, you are not helping anyone.  Sorry, that's just how I FEEL.

[Vlad G 345]

1 minute ago, Ray Ray said:

Interesting how a difference of opinion makes people so butt hurt.  You could make the argument that if you don't have a holster for your pistol then maybe you should unload it.  But that's the only time.  

By dumbing down the rules, you are not helping anyone.  Sorry, that's just how I FEEL.

And your feelings matter to .. someone Im sure. However your inexperience with the the subject is showing and makes you look silly.  You are entitled to an opinion, even a wrong one, but this is not about differences in opinion but about cold facts you have no awareness of. 

You can have opinions about how you like you eggs cooked and they are not relevant to anyone but yourself and no one is going to argue with you.  The moment you decide your opinions are more valuable that those of people who've been running matches for decades and have seen every kind of crazy one may see on a range then you lose whatever credibility you might have.

I started giving doctors advice on how often to wash their hands in a hospital because I think they do it to often, I should be slapped. That is exactly what you are doing.

 

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Okay

[Smokin .50 1,907]

If more Newbies showed-up to my PPC Match there would be less DQ's in local action Matches  .  IMHO everyone should learn how to WALK before they try to RUN with a loaded gun.  We've had to DQ more people in the last 2-3 years than ever before.  Primarily due to lack of gun handling experience as Vlad mentioned above.  Why is this?  I have an answer:  Gun owners are in general so cheap if it cost them a nickel to shit they'd rather puke!  Meaning, in general, they're too cheap to join a private club and learn thru osmosis taking baby steps---OR----they're too cheap to spend real money on basic or intermediate classes before they show-up to shoot action leagues.  They spend money on getting CCW permits but they can't operate their mag release, safety, de-cocker, etc.  They're DANGEROUS to be around.  We solve these problems if given the chance in our league.  Trouble is action shooting is like CRACK.  One "hit" and you're HOOKED, lol!

[Ray Ray 3,566]

@Smokin .50 Thanks for sharing.  It's a slippery slope when training becomes a "requirement" before anyone shoots a match.  You know as well as I do that all the training in the world won't change some shooters mistakes.  And some won't even pay attention TO the training.  

Take IDPA for example.  Why do i need to LOAD AND MAKE READY when I get to the line?  Shouldn't I already be in that position before hand?  

Yes, it would require more attention to detail.  But isn't that our goal anyway?  

USPSA and steel matches are different.  But that's a whole other debate.

[Zeke 5,504]

On June 11, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Smokin .50 said:

If more Newbies showed-up to my PPC Match there would be less DQ's in local action Matches  .  IMHO everyone should learn how to WALK before they try to RUN with a loaded gun.  We've had to DQ more people in the last 2-3 years than ever before.  Primarily due to lack of gun handling experience as Vlad mentioned above.  Why is this?  I have an answer:  Gun owners are in general so cheap if it cost them a nickel to shit they'd rather puke!  Meaning, in general, they're too cheap to join a private club and learn thru osmosis taking baby steps---OR----they're too cheap to spend real money on basic or intermediate classes before they show-up to shoot action leagues.  They spend money on getting CCW permits but they can't operate their mag release, safety, de-cocker, etc.  They're DANGEROUS to be around.  We solve these problems if given the chance in our league.  Trouble is action shooting is like CRACK.  One "hit" and you're HOOKED, lol!

If you are referencing nj gun owners. They are over tax burdened. Priorities.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

On 6/12/2017 at 10:55 PM, Zeke said:

If you are referencing nj gun owners. They are over tax burdened. Priorities.

I totally disagree Zeke.  You'd be right if they saved forever and bought a single gun.  Unfortunately that is NOT the case!  Most of the DQ "Problem Children" I encounter get 3 permits at a clip, and act as if the Sheriff is going to close-down the Whore House (Gun Sellers)  .  Meaning they finally got the good job that gives them the disposable income they wanted, so they act like they're making-up for lost time by buying as many guns as possible as fast as possible w/o stopping to learn how to shoot ANY SAFELY & where the controls are.  They launch into a collection-gathering mode and buy a skid of ammo w/o stopping to learn thru osmosis (or by taking intermediate classes) at league matches at private clubs they deem "too expensive to join" even though THOUSANDS of shooters are members.  Then they get CCW permits for hand guns they don't know how to operate.  So the money to do it right is there, but the brain sees training as something they'll "put-off till LATER"!

[Shane45 807]

Unintended consequences of over restriction!

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

Gun games, in my opinion, would help more than they hurt.  They make you far more proficient in shooting under stress (yes it's a different stress than getting shot at, but far more stress than standing on a bullseye firing line).

They also make you more proficient in quick manipulations, firing on the move, etc.  I don't think a bad guy is going to yell "unload and show clear!" to trip you up either.  Not that it would.  But opinions are like assholes, everyone has one  

[124gr9mm 859]

2 hours ago, Smokin .50 said:

I totally disagree Zeke.  You'd be right if they saved forever and bought a single gun.  Unfortunately that is NOT the case!  Most of the DQ "Problem Children" I encounter get 3 permits at a clip, and act as if the Sheriff is going to close-down the Whore House (Gun Sellers)  .  Meaning they finally got the good job that gives them the disposable income they wanted, so they act like they're making-up for lost time by buying as many guns as possible as fast as possible w/o stopping to learn how to shoot ANY SAFELY & where the controls are.  They launch into a collection-gathering mode and buy a skid of ammo w/o stopping to learn thru osmosis (or by taking intermediate classes) at league matches at private clubs they deem "too expensive to join" even though THOUSANDS of shooters are members.  Then they get CCW permits for hand guns they don't know how to operate.  So the money to do it right is there, but the brain sees training as something they'll "put-off till LATER"!

This is well stated.

It's probably a common these for lots of activities (golf, running, cycling, etc) where people wan to get out and DO it before learning how to do it.  The complexity with shooting is the potential for serious injury/death when there are relatively minor errors made.

 

 

[Zeke 5,504]

On 6/14/2017 at 8:36 AM, Smokin .50 said:

I totally disagree Zeke.  You'd be right if they saved forever and bought a single gun.  Unfortunately that is NOT the case!  Most of the DQ "Problem Children" I encounter get 3 permits at a clip, and act as if the Sheriff is going to close-down the Whore House (Gun Sellers)  .  Meaning they finally got the good job that gives them the disposable income they wanted, so they act like they're making-up for lost time by buying as many guns as possible as fast as possible w/o stopping to learn how to shoot ANY SAFELY & where the controls are.  They launch into a collection-gathering mode and buy a skid of ammo w/o stopping to learn thru osmosis (or by taking intermediate classes) at league matches at private clubs they deem "too expensive to join" even though THOUSANDS of shooters are members.  Then they get CCW permits for hand guns they don't know how to operate.  So the money to do it right is there, but the brain sees training as something they'll "put-off till LATER"!

Well put.