Rob0115 1,105 Posted June 20, 2017 Just now, jackandjill said: Innocent until proven guilty. Non compliance does not make anyone a "criminal". For that, one has to get arrested, prosecuted and convicted. If non-compliance alone makes someone a criminal & prohibited person, then atleast 99.9% of gun owners including LEOs (and dont forget Politicians) are prohibited. Now, that does not mean a literal "from cold, dead hands" either. Yes thanks to the constitution you are innocent until proven guilty. If you don't comply you are committing a crime, you will only be punished if caught and found guilty. I should say you are committing a criminal act. I'm really not sure how that changes anything at all. Other folks have insinuated not from my cold dead hands. Just read the thread on Another Democratic NJ Governor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob0115 1,105 Posted June 20, 2017 1 hour ago, PeteF said: So you would kill the children until some useless burecrat decides the law is illegal. Okay, that seemed to work out well for the "i was just following orders" crowd. And as to the NY safe act, check compliance numbers. IIRC they were less than 30%. No I'm saying it's a nonsensical comparison and if you don't get the ridiculousness I can't explain it to you. If I move to fantasy land and we go back to the days of eugenics I'll rethink my stance. It doesn't matter what the compliance numbers are for the SAFE Act you still run the risk of prosecution by not complying. I'm not gong to argue with you as you are free to do as you wish. I don't follow orders but I follow the laws and not selectively. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jackandjill 683 Posted June 20, 2017 6 minutes ago, Rob0115 said: Yes thanks to the constitution you are innocent until proven guilty. If you don't comply you are committing a crime, you will only be punished if caught and found guilty. I should say you are committing a criminal act. I'm really not sure how that changes anything at all. Other folks have insinuated not from my cold dead hands. Just read the thread on Another Democratic NJ Governor. There is a HUGE difference. Thankfully, you alone don't get to decide if I am committing or have committed a criminal act. NO Law is absolute. Inferring, implying or otherwise declaring an absolute law violates Constitutional Due Process. On a lighter note, record EVERY little detail of a year in your life and I will show you how you are a criminal & prohibited person. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob0115 1,105 Posted June 20, 2017 1 minute ago, jackandjill said: There is a HUGE difference. Thankfully, you alone don't get to decide if I am committing or have committed a criminal act. NO Law is absolute. Interfering, implying or otherwise declaring an absolute law violates Constitutional Due Process. On a lighter note, record EVERY little detail of a year in your life and I will show you how you are a criminal & prohibited person. As I said earlier there is no difference other than you haven't been caught. And, as I said to another poster, you can go any path you'd like and I wish you no harm. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jackandjill 683 Posted June 20, 2017 Just now, Rob0115 said: As I said earlier there is no difference other than you haven't been caught. And, as I said to another poster, you can go any path you'd like and I wish you no harm. Then turn in your firearms. As I said earlier, 99.99995% chance that you did not comply with a law in the last one year alone. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob0115 1,105 Posted June 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, jackandjill said: Then turn in your firearms. As I said earlier, 99.99995% chance that you did not comply with a law in the last one year alone. Last reply because this is beyond silly. You don't know me or anything about me. Accusing me of being a prohibited person is beyond acceptable. I'll not insult you but move on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jackandjill 683 Posted June 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Rob0115 said: Last reply because this is beyond silly. You don't know me or anything about me. Accusing me of being a prohibited person is beyond acceptable. I'll not insult you but move on. Its been silly for few posts now. We got ourselves into absolutes. Is it ok then for you to imply and accuse thousands, if 100s of thousands of NJ gun owners to be criminals and prohibited people ? And then talk about their moral high ground ? How about you take a realistic view of the world (including your own) before casting judgement on others ? Or is it too silly to suggest ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Walt of Destiny 412 Posted June 20, 2017 Gents, This spun out of control just over a point I think you both agree on. Woosah... NJ law prohibits all firearms by default. So if you have an encounter with a LEO and you are in possession or control of a firearm, the LEO is within his rights to arrest you for possession of a firearm regardless of your intent, destination or determination of prohibited person or not. Unlike the rest of the country where the constitution is in force, in NJ with regard to firearms your possession constitutes your guilt. You are then tasked with proving you fall into one of the few exemptions of the "all firearms are illegal." yes boys and girls, that's guilty until you can prove you're innocent. Pissed off yet? That is why we must mobilize to defeat Murphy. 5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob0115 1,105 Posted June 20, 2017 5 minutes ago, jackandjill said: Its been silly for few posts now. We got ourselves into absolutes. Is it ok then for you to imply and accuse thousands, if 100s of thousands of NJ gun owners to be criminals and prohibited people ? And then talk about their moral high ground ? How about you take a realistic view of the world (including your own) before casting judgement on others ? Or is it too silly to suggest ? First I said move on and meant it. Really my last post. Re-read, I accused no one of committing crimes. I asserted the best course of action is to comply with the laws. I judged no one you and others are free to do what you want. You on the other hand called me a criminal directly From your post: 99.99995% chance that you did not comply with a law in the last one year alone. And then you accused everyone else of being a criminal (or at least almost everyone else). Then you wrote If non-compliance alone makes someone a criminal & prohibited person, then atleast 99.9% of gun owners including LEOs (and dont forget Politicians) are prohibited. Advising people to steer clear of committing crimes isn't accusing them of anything. If you don't see how dumb it is to call me a criminal and then 99.9999995% of gun owners criminals on a public internet forum than I cannot help you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lostboy 105 Posted June 20, 2017 Guys.... 10rnd limit is the least of your concerns. Have any of you been on murphy4nj? Check this... This is laughable but the problem is people believe this nonsense. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leahcim 679 Posted June 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Rob0115 said: Yes thanks to the constitution you are innocent until proven guilty. If you don't comply you are committing a crime, you will only be punished if caught and found guilty. I should say you are committing a criminal act. I'm really not sure how that changes anything at all. IANAL, but how can you commit a criminal act when, by not getting rid of your magazines, you have not done anything? You have literally done nothing. What is the criminal act? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lostboy 105 Posted June 20, 2017 IANAL, but how can you commit a criminal act when, by not getting rid of your magazines, you have not done anything? You have literally done nothing. What is the criminal act?The great state of grey areas will get you every time. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smokin .50 1,907 Posted June 20, 2017 6 hours ago, SuRrEaLNJ said: any of you who order fromn ctd just go wear your lacy man rompers and go change your voter reg to libtard the rest of you go get your the end is nigh signs, everything sucks here but it sure as hell isnt going to get better with everyones defeatist attitude bs, thats why this state will never get better, half the gun owners are more damaging to our cause then the democraps ^^^THIS! The voting apathy spills-over into this forum all the time! I'm kind of tired of dealing with people that horde ammo, don't vote and won't join a Second Amendment group. So much stupid my head hurts 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Walt of Destiny 412 Posted June 21, 2017 3 hours ago, leahcim said: IANAL, but how can you commit a criminal act when, by not getting rid of your magazines, you have not done anything? You have literally done nothing. What is the criminal act? Actually mere assumed control of a prohibited item, even passively or without knowledge, lands you in the "prove you're innocent" bucket. Say an evil-doer stashes a key of heroin in your trunk and you get caught rolling through a stop sign and you consent to a search because you're a law abiding citizen. You're arrested. The true nature of these adminstative laws that make something illegal that wasn't yesterday is not to catch criminals. It's to catch the law abiding. They save no lives, serve no good, nor deter any criminal. They are the epitome of an ignorant constituency. Mr. Carpetbagger, billionaire, candidacy buying douche is a case study in this. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jackandjill 683 Posted June 21, 2017 6 hours ago, Rob0115 said: First I said move on and meant it. Really my last post. Re-read, I accused no one of committing crimes. I asserted the best course of action is to comply with the laws. I judged no one you and others are free to do what you want. You on the other hand called me a criminal directly From your post: 99.99995% chance that you did not comply with a law in the last one year alone. And then you accused everyone else of being a criminal (or at least almost everyone else). Then you wrote If non-compliance alone makes someone a criminal & prohibited person, then atleast 99.9% of gun owners including LEOs (and dont forget Politicians) are prohibited. Advising people to steer clear of committing crimes isn't accusing them of anything. If you don't see how dumb it is to call me a criminal and then 99.9999995% of gun owners criminals on a public internet forum than I cannot help you. Na na nah... dont try to put words in my mouth. Read it again. YOU defined what constitutes a "criminal". YOU don't want to even acknowledge the due process. In YOUR mind, once someone does not comply with a law, they are CRIMINALS and PROHIBITED. You made that clear. Apparently YOU have a yard stick to measure others by and I simply pointed out that YOU should measure YOURSELF against it and see what happens. YOU didn't like what you saw. I don't wish harm on anyone and I certainly DO NOT have a yard stick to measure others by. YMMV. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob0115 1,105 Posted June 21, 2017 7 hours ago, jackandjill said: Na na nah... dont try to put words in my mouth. Read it again. YOU defined what constitutes a "criminal". YOU don't want to even acknowledge the due process. In YOUR mind, once someone does not comply with a law, they are CRIMINALS and PROHIBITED. You made that clear. Apparently YOU have a yard stick to measure others by and I simply pointed out that YOU should measure YOURSELF against it and see what happens. YOU didn't like what you saw. I don't wish harm on anyone and I certainly DO NOT have a yard stick to measure others by. YMMV. Dude what don't you get? I said if they change the mag laws, they don't get grandfathered and you keeps yours then you are committing a crime. I reread it. I didn't decide or define that breaking the law, intentional or not, is a criminal action. I also commmeted that the destructive protests that someone referenced aren't heroic. In my last post I cut and paste from your posts. I didn't put the words, 99,99999995% of gun owners are prohibited. You typed that, I copied it for you to have a chance to read over again I acknowledged due process and said yes you are accused of being a criminal You're getting into silly semantics If you believe it's not big deal go out and buy a 30 round magpul or drum. I'm not measuring anyone, I outlined a hypothetical situation and nothing more. I can't believe you don't know what you posted. Who typed the quotes below? Are you not calling me a criminal I s the second quoted post? If I'm prohibited and holding firearms isn't that breaking the law? In the first quoted post, on-compliance is a crime. I don't get what your saying. If caught you will be arrested and tried in all likelihood. You go in to give your further opinion that virtually everyone is committing a crime. 13 hours ago, jackandjill said: Innocent until proven guilty. Non compliance does not make anyone a "criminal". For that, one has to get arrested, prosecuted and convicted. If non-compliance alone makes someone a criminal & prohibited person, then atleast 99.9% of gun owners including LEOs (and dont forget Politicians) are prohibited. And 99.99999999% of rest of the population has no high ground to even cast a vote to elect a Politician who would then make the said ridiculous laws. Now, that does not mean a literal "from cold, dead hands" either. 12 hours ago, jackandjill said: Then turn in your firearms. As I said earlier, 99.99995% chance that you did not comply with a law in the last one year alone. Aren't the above judgemental statements? It's got your name or did someone hack your account? Do you think calling everyone, almost everyone, prohibited, thus committing a crime a smart thing to do in a public Internet forum? And maybe you're right and I judged. I chose to believe that people were compliant with the laws and in the worst case not knowingly out of compliance by and large. Hardly harsh judgement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jackandjill 683 Posted June 21, 2017 Was that your last post for real, again ? Either there is a serious lack of comprehension or black & white perception of the law in general. You are the one who made pretty damning and judgmental statements before I ever jumped into this conversation. Some direct quotes below for your reference. My comments about 99.9995% (high probability) follow up was about IF your statements were to be true (which they are not, in real world), THEN that would put practically everyone into a "criminal" category. I took your own statement about "follow the laws and not selectively" and asked a rhetorical question & statement (hoping to highlight how ridiculous & impractical such assertion is) about measuring your own actions & life against the yard stick you put forth. Make statements and express your opinions all you want, but no one should be, and is, considered a criminal or prohibited person UNLESS Due Process is afforded and concluded as such. Mere non-compliance and civil disobedience does not make anyone a criminal. YOU, a firearm owner, of all the people should know how seriously rest of the community takes such remarks to the contrary. You still haven't answered the question on if you follow all the laws and never in non-compliance. If you do, CONGRATULATIONS, my hats off to you and you just proved some seriously experienced law enforcement, lawyers, prosecutors, psychologies, social experts, law professors wrong. Call up a seasoned LEO or Lawyer and ask the if they know of someone who followed all the laws and never selectively. If you did not follow all laws or selectively followed, take 5 minutes and introspect on statements you made. Unlike you, this really is my last post on this thread. Good luck on following all laws, not selectively. This thread has been silly from get go. ------- Rob01105 If you do not comply you are now a criminal and no longer a law abinding gun owner--a prohibted person. Rob01105 Yes thanks to the constitution you are innocent until proven guilty. If you don't comply you are committing a crime, you will only be punished if caught and found guilty. I should say you are committing a criminal act. I'm really not sure how that changes anything at all. Rob01105 I don't follow orders but I follow the laws and not selectively. Rob01105 Last reply because this is beyond silly. Rob01105 Really my last post. Rob01105 Dude what don't you get? ------------------ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
capt14k 2,052 Posted June 22, 2017 jackandjill your wasting your time with the pansy. I had this discussion with him before. State tells him to bend over he will. If part of the law says you must turn in your neighbor he will. He doesn't selectively follow laws. Let him be first in line to register and turn everything in because some Unconstitutional Law says he has to. Then when the courts overturn it and he asks for it back the look on his face will be priceless when the Gestapo laughs and tells him they destroyed it. Imagine if our forefathers followed every law and not selectively? We would still be subjects of the crown. The sun would still rise and set on the English Empire. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob0115 1,105 Posted June 22, 2017 Ahhh, name calling the lowest form of discourse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bhunted 887 Posted June 22, 2017 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gleninjersey 2,139 Posted June 22, 2017 If elected what are the chances Murphy will pass further mag restrictions? 100%. Odds of me not complying, 110%. Buy what you want now. Vote for person most likely to defeat Corzine 2.0 and fight now. Stop worrying about what "might happen" and fight for what you know is right. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
capt14k 2,052 Posted June 22, 2017 Ahhh, name calling the lowest form of discourse. Alright maybe pansy wasn't needed, but tell me the rest isn't true? You clearly stated you don't selectively obey laws; you obey them all. So if the law reads only 5 round magazines permitted, and if you see or know anyone with any larger than a 5 round magazine you must report them or be charged as an accessory after the fact you wouldn't turn them in? Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Walt of Destiny 412 Posted June 22, 2017 Here's a good "for instance"... Right meow, as I type this, dem operatives are signing up whomever they can to "early vote". I put "early vote" in quotes because it's the shell game they play with voter rolls. The local operatives get names of the dead, dying and house bound democrats, along with legitimate voters lured in to an "event" that feeds them to sign up for early and absentee votes. Once the vote is cast, there's no identifying it so you can't nullify fraudulent votes. Early voting is a problem one that the dems use to their advantage. Republicans have no such program. As I keep saying, we don't play this game well. Frankly we are too honorable to game the system. We aren't even good at gerrymandering, which is a huge loophole in voter rights. We need to turn the tables. The NRA should be rounding up people to vote early now... Murphy is an avoidable disaster. Tell someone to vote for Kim today. Have them do the same to the next guy or girl. To working folk this crap sounds silly and infantile. But it's how a community organizer got into a place where he tried to take guns away from social security recipients. Kim needs to spin CC to use against Murphy. He's going to hit her hard with Christie, she needs to defuse it by accepting the connection not trying to distance herself. Trump can help her. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob0115 1,105 Posted June 22, 2017 The rest isn't true. In the debate with you I made a comment with no context on how many more registered dems there are than republicans. I gave no other context at all other than 1 important fact, a fact that every republican strategist in this state considers, even the guys who got CC elected twice. You added the rest of the context and berated me as if I didn't read the thread prior to my comment, but I had. I had also outlined not making guns a centerpiece, they don't matter in this state and to focus on the taxes and school funding. They are inextricably linked and the single biggest issue in the state. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob0115 1,105 Posted June 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, Walt of Destiny said: Here's a good "for instance"... Right meow, as I type this, dem operatives are signing up whomever they can to "early vote". I put "early vote" in quotes because it's the shell game they play with voter rolls. The local operatives get names of the dead, dying and house bound democrats, along with legitimate voters lured in to an "event" that feeds them to sign up for early and absentee votes. Once the vote is cast, there's no identifying it so you can't nullify fraudulent votes. Early voting is a problem one that the dems use to their advantage. Republicans have no such program. As I keep saying, we don't play this game well. Frankly we are too honorable to game the system. We aren't even good at gerrymandering, which is a huge loophole in voter rights. We need to turn the tables. The NRA should be rounding up people to vote early now... Murphy is an avoidable disaster. Tell someone to vote for Kim today. Have them do the same to the next guy or girl. To working folk this crap sounds silly and infantile. But it's how a community organizer got into a place where he tried to take guns away from social security recipients. Maje needs to spin CC to use against Murphy. They get a bus ride and free lunch too. I haven't seen any real campaigning from the republicans yet, is it too early? Does it fatigue quickly? I don't know the pacing that's appropriate but the election is only a few months away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Walt of Destiny 412 Posted June 22, 2017 @capt14k & @Rob0115 the true enemy here is Murphy. Progressives have a way of getting us to fight ourselves. I think you're both patriots with a difference of opinion that really is imagined. Dems don't argue about this kind of stuff. They have a single purpose, destroy Trump. Like zombies, they don't stop till you shoot them in the head. Far be it from me to sugggest shooting them in the head, but we need to adapt to this new world and fight them at their own game. While we argue the finer points of complying with unconstitutional laws, they are shooing in a douche that will make it nigh impossible to exercise our 2nd amendment in this state. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob0115 1,105 Posted June 22, 2017 1 hour ago, bhunted said: Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Good flick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Walt of Destiny 412 Posted June 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, Rob0115 said: They get a bus ride and free lunch too. I haven't seen any real campaigning from the republicans yet, is it too early? Does it fatigue quickly? I don't know the pacing that's appropriate but the election is only a few months away. THats the tactic of early voting. Once that enevelop is sealed, that's only less vote turned by October surprises. Why do you think HRC's machine got the most early votes in history? They knew that every day brought another scandal. Lock them in now. This is winnable. Anyone that thinks it's inevitable should turn in their mags, ARs and handguns. To me... 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob0115 1,105 Posted June 22, 2017 Just now, Walt of Destiny said: THats the tactic of early voting. Once that enevelop is sealed, that's only less vote turned by October surprises. Why do you think HRC's machine got the most early votes in history? They knew that every day brought another scandal. Lock them in now. This is winnable. Anyone that thinks it's inevitable should turn in their mags, ARs and handguns. To me... Agree, if Trump's election proved anything it certainly proved anything is possible. I agree when you are polling well get the guaranteed vote it's priceless. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parker 213 Posted June 22, 2017 Agreed on the lack of evidence of Republican campaigning. They are months behind Murphy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites