Help point me towards my first shotgun

[voyager9 3,433]

I can’t believe I went back to reread this thread... now I want a shotgun. 

[High Exposure 5,661]

3 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

Sucks to be wrong, but be a bigger man and say okay I was wrong. 

Birdshot is not an acceptable self defense round - I don’t care if you are indoors or out. Stop telling people it is.

Take your own advice and admit you are wrong.

[Scorpio64 5,147]

Just now, High Exposure said:

Birdshot is not an acceptable self defense round - I don’t care if you are indoors or out. Stop telling people it is.

depends on the shot size.  if you mean trap loads, then i agree.  But a 3" shell loaded with #2 goose load would put an ugly hurt on a home invader at CQB distance.  BB would be even worse. 

If all I had on hand was #8 or #7.5 target loads, I'd make myself a few waxed cut shells.  That'll git 'er done.

[GRIZ 3,369]

37 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

depends on the shot size.  if you mean trap loads, then i agree.  But a 3" shell loaded with #2 goose load would put an ugly hurt on a home invader at CQB distance.  BB would be even worse. 

If all I had on hand was #8 or #7.5 target loads, I'd make myself a few waxed cut shells.  That'll git 'er done.

Do some more research.  Cut shotgun shells are very unpredictable in performance.

[Scorpio64 5,147]

Just now, GRIZ said:

Do some more research.  Cut shotgun shells are very unpredictable in performance.

 

43 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

If all I had on hand was #8 or #7.5 target loads,

I've done my research.  Have you ever made and shot a waxed cut shell?  There are untold thousands of dirt poor mountain and country folk that hunted deer with cut shells, especially during the great depression.  If they are done properly, cut shells are very effective.

[GRIZ 3,369]

4 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

 

I've done my research.  Have you ever made and shot a waxed cut shell?  There are untold thousands of dirt poor mountain and country folk that hunted deer with cut shells, especially during the great depression.  If they are done properly, cut shells are very effective.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/07/31/cut-shells-shotgun-nonsense/amp/

Heres just one source.  Cut shells work...when they do.  More often you get the same shallow penetration if you just fired the shell without cutting it.  I tried this long ago and the article I linked is my experience.

I've also seen a guy trying this and it appears the cut portion of the she lodged in the barrel.  His next round cause a classic Elmer Fudd banana peel.  Fortunately no one was hurt.

[Scorpio64 5,147]

To be fair, cut shells were "invented" when shells were made of thick waxed paper so I don't think they had that problem in the 30's.  With plastic shells, it should only be done with a cyl bore .  Also, cut shells were used mainly in single shot and SxS shotguns in the 20s and 30's.  An experienced user of such shells would look down the barrel and clear anything out that got left behind.

As far as penetration is concerned.  1 1/8 oz traveling at 1100 fps will produce at least 1500 ft lbs of energy inside of 15 yards.  Penetration may not be deep but every internal organ will be turned into pudding.  You get shot with a cut shell at 5 to 10 yards, you ain't getting up any time soon.

btw folks.  if all this talk about cut shells got you think'n bout messing around with cut shells, don't. If you don't know what you are doing, you could ruin a perfectly good day at the range.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

5 hours ago, Scorpio64 said:

depends on the shot size.  if you mean trap loads, then i agree.  But a 3" shell loaded with #2 goose load would put an ugly hurt on a home invader at CQB distance.  BB would be even worse. 

If all I had on hand was #8 or #7.5 target loads, I'd make myself a few waxed cut shells.  That'll git 'er done.

I use High Brass BB shot.  It's amazing at 7 yards.  

[W2MC 1,699]

...and a box of buckshot can be had for about $2.50 on sale.....

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Do I recommend low brass birdshot?  No. 

High Brass shells for maximum velocity.

[Zeke 5,504]

9 hours ago, voyager9 said:

I can’t believe I went back to reread this thread... now I want a shotgun. 

What ya gonna get?

9 hours ago, Bighungry618 said:

Boy did this thread devolve in record time.....Anywho....Zeke just wants me to get that Beretta because he wants to shoot it.   Ok then...  thats my next purchase, Pinky Swear.

No take backzies!

[Parker 213]

Threads I've read in the internet universe extoll the virtues of "cut shells" and all seem to have been used by some fellow's grandpappy "during the Depression." Mind you, buckshot was available then, and Foster slugs came out in the 30's. So why cut a shell? 

Perhaps the "cut shell" was borne out of illegal use. You know, before slugs were legal in most states for hunting? Or maybe used by hunters during a regular small game season hunt where they carried birdshot but had a few cut shells for poaching an opportunistic deer? And how did they manage to get a paper shell to work properly before the advent of the plastic shot column, which didn't evolve until the 60's?  Just a hunch, but I doubt paper shells worked as well as planned or imagined since the shot column sat between an overpowder fiber card and an overshot cardboard card; sandwiched by a roll crimp. How that made its way down a bore and through a tight choke then got to the target intact is a mystery to me. (Remember, fixed chokes were tighter back then before the advent of shotshell wads. The plastic wad column today helps keep the shot together longer, prevents some scrubbing in the barrel and eliminates flyers in the pattern.) 

Before slugs were legal in New Jersey, the compendium denoted the use of "strung shot" and "waxed shot" as illegal to use or possess in the field. Only buckshot 4,3,2,1,0 & 00 were legal to hunt with during the big game seasons. 

Wax shells seem to work, I've loaded and tested them, but they are a lot of work to construct and I would never use them over a Foster slug load which is readily available. 

 

 

 

 

[W2MC 1,699]

OK - $3.99 NOT on sale!

 

http://www.cabelas.com/product/shooting/ammunition/shotgun-ammunition/pc/104792580/c/104691780/sc/104567580/rio-buckshot-ammunition/706902.uts?slotId=5

[Scorpio64 5,147]

1 hour ago, Parker said:

Mind you, buckshot was available then, and Foster slugs came out in the 30's. So why cut a shell? 

Perhaps the "cut shell" was borne out of illegal use. You know, before slugs were legal in most states for hunting?

Yep, it was.  What wasn't as available was money.  Why buy a bag of expensive 00 pellets and less expensive a bag of #8 when they could do it all with one sack the cheap stuff.

1 hour ago, Parker said:

And how did they manage to get a paper shell to work properly before the advent of the plastic shot column.......

How that made its way down a bore and through a tight choke then got to the target intact is a mystery to me. (Remember, fixed chokes were tighter back then before the advent of shotshell wads.

The shell is cut at the felt wad which acts as the bottom.  The cut portion of the paper shell stays with the waxed shot, it keeps it all kinda glued  together until it hits it's target.  So, the paper shell itself is the shot cup.

Chokes today are the same as fixed chokes 100 years ago.  A modified choke from 1935 was no tighter than a modified choke today, It's the same amount of constriction.  You are assuming that all shotguns back then had full chokes. 

Deer and upland game guns from that period typically had an improved cylinder or Modified choke if it was a single barrel,  and IC and Modified if it was a SxS, neither of which is terribly restrictive.  The only shotguns from that period that would have full chokes would have been goose guns.

 

1 hour ago, Parker said:

Before slugs were legal in New Jersey, the compendium denoted the use of "strung shot" and "waxed shot" as illegal to use or possess in the field. Only buckshot 4,3,2,1,0 & 00 were legal to hunt with during the big game seasons

This is a testament to the efficacy of cut shells.

2 hours ago, Parker said:

I would never use them over a Foster slug load which is readily available.

Well, duh. But this isn't 1934.  The point being made was, for home defense (or depression era deer hunting on the cheap), if all you had was #8 game or target loads, a wax cut shell would be better than plain bird shot.

If cut shells didn't work, why are they still a thing?

[GRIZ 3,369]

1 hour ago, Scorpio64 said:

 

 

This is a testament to the efficacy of cut shells.

Or maybe a testament they didn't work well and left too much game to get away and bleed out and be lost?

Yes, they do work...when they work.  There's just too much out there that tells one not to rely on them.

Like cutting crosses on RNL 38s.  They work...sonetimes.

[Parker 213]

21 hours ago, Scorpio64 said:

Yep, it was.  What wasn't as available was money.  Why buy a bag of expensive 00 pellets and less expensive a bag of #8 when they could do it all with one sack the cheap stuff.

The shell is cut at the felt wad which acts as the bottom.  The cut portion of the paper shell stays with the waxed shot, it keeps it all kinda glued  together until it hits it's target.  So, the paper shell itself is the shot cup.

Chokes today are the same as fixed chokes 100 years ago.  A modified choke from 1935 was no tighter than a modified choke today, It's the same amount of constriction.  You are assuming that all shotguns back then had full chokes. 

Deer and upland game guns from that period typically had an improved cylinder or Modified choke if it was a single barrel,  and IC and Modified if it was a SxS, neither of which is terribly restrictive.  The only shotguns from that period that would have full chokes would have been goose guns.

 

This is a testament to the efficacy of cut shells.

Well, duh. But this isn't 1934.  The point being made was, for home defense (or depression era deer hunting on the cheap), if all you had was #8 game or target loads, a wax cut shell would be better than plain bird shot.

If cut shells didn't work, why are they still a thing?

Are you talking about cut shells or cut shells with waxed shot? The efficacy of a cut shell is further enhanced should you first wax the shot. To do so means you would have to open the crimp to add the wax. Doing so would risk the integrity of the original crimp (probably an old style roll crimp) unless you were starting from scratch and reloading a fresh hull. 

Early shotguns were more tightly choked than today's shotguns. (There's a lot of good Parker's, Fox's and L.C. Smith's on the market today that are missing a few inches of barrel length thanks to Bubba the gunsmith who thought that the most expeditious way to open the choke was to cut off a few inches of barrel and screw on a new bead front sight.) A tightly choked gun wasn't just a specialty that only a goose gun possessed back then. The popularity of the PolyChoke for single-barrel guns from the 20's to the 60's opened up (no pun intended) a new era for shotgunners before choke tubes were standardized. Most old pre-WWII American doubles were choked tight (usually M/F) unless they were configured as a dedicated skeet gun. The advent of the plastic wad column changed patterning results as well. 

Cut shells are a "thing" with YouTuber's. 

[Parker 213]

Waxed shells I reloaded some years back - 

Crimped end removed, Crayola as the wax, 1 oz. of #8 shot, 16 ga. card set on top with wax. Rudimentary at best.  TGT12 and 12S0 wads tested.  

 

 

[Ray Ray 3,566]

22 hours ago, W2MC said:

OK - $3.99 NOT on sale!

 

http://www.cabelas.com/product/shooting/ammunition/shotgun-ammunition/pc/104792580/c/104691780/sc/104567580/rio-buckshot-ammunition/706902.uts?slotId=5

That's expensive for basic 00 Buck

[Scorpio64 5,147]

3 minutes ago, Parker said:

Are you talking about cut shells or cut shells with waxed shot?  The efficacy of a cut shell is further enhanced should you first wax the shot. To do so means you would have to open the crimp to add the wax. Doing so would risk the integrity of the original crimp

 

On 1/30/2018 at 0:11 AM, Scorpio64 said:

If all I had on hand was #8 or #7.5 target loads, I'd make myself a few waxed cut shells.  That'll git 'er done.

When I was a kid, paper shells were still somewhat common.  At least at my house.   Not difficult to open the crimp and close it back up.

I think we are at a point here where we are splitting hairs.  The point of my post, where I brought up wax cut shells, is that it's better than just plain old #8 birdshot if you have nothing else on hand.  It was an off the cuff comment to say that such a shell can be made more useful absent of better ammo.

[Parker 213]

I still load paper for upland in old doubles and also for nostalgic reasons. 

 

 

[W2MC 1,699]

3 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

That's expensive for basic 00 Buck

Yeah it is...I'd wait until it goes on sale

[Zeke 5,504]

@GramGun79 what do you have? Beneli or beretta?

[GramGun79 226]

Benelli.... Mrs. Zeke will own one soon. I will make sure she is first in line to shoot mine 

[GramGun79 226]

@Zeke There she is buddy

[Zeke 5,504]

43 minutes ago, GramGun79 said:

@Zeke There she is buddy

My god that’s purdy

[JD1037 125]

47 minutes ago, GramGun79 said:

@Zeke There she is buddy

Oh.... is that the 12 gage  Benelli 828U?  I just saw that in the cabelas ad. I like it 

[GramGun79 226]

3 minutes ago, Mrs.Zeke said:

Oh.... is that the 12 gage  Benelli 828U?  I just saw that in the cabelas ad. I like it 

Mine is an Ethos Semi Auto 12g...I REEEEALLLLY like the 828U. You wanna buy mine so i can feel better about buying an 828?? Come on @Zeke open the wallet!!!!

[Zeke 5,504]

What is wrong with you people!

[Zeke 5,504]

40 minutes ago, GramGun79 said:

Mine is an Ethos Semi Auto 12g...I REEEEALLLLY like the 828U. You wanna buy mine so i can feel better about buying an 828?? Come on @Zeke open the wallet!!!!

@voyager9 @Bighungry618

[Scorpio64 5,147]

1 hour ago, Mrs.Zeke said:

Oh.... is that the 12 gage  Benelli 828U?  I just saw that in the cabelas ad. I like it 

@Zeke <laughing> Oh man, you are skruuuued.  You may need to get a night job.