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Heowner take out 1 of 2 burglers

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The thing I learned from taking Massad Ayoob's MAG class is that the "good shoot" is a myth.  The best part of the class was when he brought in victims of "good shoots".  Men who in the end did the right thing but ended up in jail or with huge legal bills anyway.  What was eye opening was how they described prosecutorial tactics like using your modifications to your SD gun or your social media posts on FB or NJGF against you to show you're a bad seed with premeditative, murderous thoughts.

Ayoob is the expert on this because he has seen so many of these shoots and subsequent trials play out as an expert witness.  Many people just assume that it will play out based on what they've seen on TV and haven't really done any research on the topic other than put night sights on their Glock.

"Good shoots" don't always involve burglars from the ghetto.  They involve escalating feuds with neighbors that come to blows, the drunk teenage kid next door trying to sneak back into the wrong house, etc.

That's why I think U.S. Law Shield or Armed Citizens Legal Defense Fund is a wise investment.

http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2015/03/3-post-court-myths-dispelled-by-massad-ayoob/#3-post-court-myths-dispelled-by-massad-ayoob-1

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On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 11:48 PM, Mrs. Peel said:

From my own moral code, I believe that taking another person's life could be necessary... but that's a far cry from it being good. Looking at it pragmatically, many normal, non-sociopathic people who kill others as part of their work (soldiers, etc.) are sometimes plagued with the emotional fallout (PTSD, etc.) for years afterwards.  That doesn't mean they're weak...I think it just reflects that killing another human is an ugly, horrible and deeply upsetting act, even when it's necessary. 

It's one thing to philosophize about killing from a keyboard... I would imagine quite another thing to actually do it.

 

 

Just ponder this...  Ever see a Viet Cong (or any other non- western combatant) with PTSD?

Though, you have a point, I can't relate.

Just something to think about

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I commented on this post 14 hours ago.

Though my response may be controversial, there hasn't been any response from others.  I'm very surprised.

A more in depth question is, have we become culturally unable to destroy those who wish us death or bodily harm?

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Funny discussion. If a cop believes he may be in danger of stubbing his toe he can fire away and get off 99% of the time. But we ordinary citizens have these philosophic discussions about proper use of force.

You find someone in your home who doesn't belong there and he doesn't immediately turn around and run out, you use maximum force. You won't "sleep like a baby" as one poster suggested but you'll live.

 

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45 minutes ago, Old School said:

I commented on this post 14 hours ago.

Though my response may be controversial, there hasn't been any response from others.  I'm very surprised.

A more in depth question is, have we become culturally unable to destroy those who wish us death or bodily harm?

I think we are talking about different things. I don't see anyone here advocating against protecting self. But are cautioning about dealing with consequences.

You are right, I haven't seen a VietCong with PTSD. Doesn't mean they aren't suffering. I have seen soldiers of other countries come back from messy wars and waste away, never to return to normal again. 

On the other hand, I doubt the that lady who shot couple of robbers (there was a video a year or so ago) suffered any PTSD. I also doubt she took firearm classes to prepare her mind & body with super ninja skills (training emphasis could be another topic). 

Big part of all this is mental justification, dealing with details and number of occurrences. LEO and other professionals are constantly trained on value of human life for very good reasons. They are given tools and power thats above average citizen. They have to deal with details of aftermath. They also need to be careful of mental justification. Its very thin line that can be easily crossed over to dark side. Society does not need bunch of those running around with no empathy. 

Is certain cases of PTSD higher in troops engaged in close range combat compared to, say, airforce personnel or drone operators ? Why is that ?  In my personal opinion, the later doesnt have to deal with details up close. Don't have to look into eyes of a person chocking on their own blood. Don't have to walk through body(ies) drenched in cloths . Don't have to bag them. 

Its easy to sound tough, unless been through couple of these up close. 

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1 hour ago, Old School said:

I commented on this post 14 hours ago.

Though my response may be controversial, there hasn't been any response from others.  I'm very surprised.

A more in depth question is, have we become culturally unable to destroy those who wish us death or bodily harm?

Suicide bombers don't suffer from ptsd either. Apples and oranges.

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44 minutes ago, jackandjill said:

I think we are talking about different things. I don't see anyone here advocating against protecting self. But are cautioning about dealing with consequences.

You are right, I haven't seen a VietCong with PTSD. Doesn't mean they aren't suffering. I have seen soldiers of other countries come back from messy wars and waste away, never to return to normal again. 

On the other hand, I doubt the that lady who shot couple of robbers (there was a video a year or so ago) suffered any PTSD. I also doubt she took firearm classes to prepare her mind & body with super ninja skills (training emphasis could be another topic). 

Big part of all this is mental justification, dealing with details and number of occurrences. LEO and other professionals are constantly trained on value of human life for very good reasons. They are given tools and power thats above average citizen. They have to deal with details of aftermath. They also need to be careful of mental justification. Its very thin line that can be easily crossed over to dark side. Society does not need bunch of those running around with no empathy. 

Is certain cases of PTSD higher in troops engaged in close range combat compared to, say, airforce personnel or drone operators ? Why is that ?  In my personal opinion, the later doesnt have to deal with details up close. Don't have to look into eyes of a person chocking on their own blood. Don't have to walk through body(ies) drenched in cloths . Don't have to bag them. 

Its easy to sound tough, unless been through couple of these up close. 

I don't know if this is a jab but, I'll just let it roll off.

You make some good points.

But, my question stands.  Is western society getting to the point where they are unwilling to take a life? 

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1 minute ago, Old School said:

I don't know if this is a jab but, I'll just let it roll off.

You make some good points.

But, my question stands.  Is western society getting to the point where they are unwilling to take a life? 

Sorry, no jab meant. Apologize if it came out that way. 

And yes, some elements of western society in some cases is getting to the point of unwilling to take a life. In my personal view, arguments against death penalty in severe cases is one of them. 

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H/T to H.E.!

Only those who encounter night sweats after dealing-out the cards of death are worthy of our compassion.  I get where everyone is coming from, believe me I do.  Just like in War, no matter the justification, killing takes its' toll upon the survivors.  Some go crazy, some hide it well & "move-on", some seek help for it, some drink it away when the demons come, and some, for whatever reason, ENJOY IT.  This is the epitaph of an imperfect human being that is called upon to act swiftly & deadly on behalf of self or others.

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11 hours ago, Newtonian said:

 You won't "sleep like a baby" as one poster suggested but you'll live.

 

You can handle it one way, and others handle it another way.  Maybe YOU won't "sleep like a baby", but I will be just fine.

10 hours ago, Old School said:

But, my question stands.  Is western society getting to the point where they are unwilling to take a life? 

No, western society thinks all life is precious.  Except the babies in womans bellies.

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24 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

You can handle it one way, and others handle it another way.  Maybe YOU won't "sleep like a baby", but I will be just fine.

No, western society thinks all life is precious.  Except the babies in womans bellies.

BIG +1 Ray !

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31 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

You can handle it one way, and others handle it another way.  Maybe YOU won't "sleep like a baby", but I will be just fine.

No, western society thinks all life is precious.  Except the babies in womans bellies.

So you don't think that killing someone will stir up at least as much in you as the last time you tossed and turned over...whatever, someone denting your car perhaps?

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3 hours ago, Newtonian said:

So you don't think that killing someone will stir up at least as much in you as the last time you tossed and turned over...whatever, someone denting your car perhaps?

If I killed some drugged up high school moron that broke in my house looking for some cash, I would feel awful.

If I killed someone that broke into my house that had a weapon on them, I would dance a jig, sleep like a baby, and marvel at my good luck.

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If I killed some drugged up high school moron that broke in my house looking for some cash, I would feel awful.
If I killed someone that broke into my house that had a weapon on them, I would dance a jig, sleep like a baby, and marvel at my good luck.

"Marvel at my good luck"

It's this bloodlust that gives credence to many anti's arguments that gun owners are looking for an excuse to kill someone.
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45 minutes ago, Darrenf said:


"Marvel at my good luck"

It's this bloodlust that gives credence to many anti's arguments that gun owners are looking for an excuse to kill someone.

"Bloodlust"? Not sure where you got that from, sport.

I have no formal training to fight. If I am able to defeat some experienced thug in a fight for my life, I would consider that incredibly lucky. Not sure how you would spin that anti gun. If I couldn't get to my gun, I'd be happy to stab the guy or beat him with a baseball bat.

 

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"Bloodlust"? Not sure where you got that from, sport.
I have no formal training to fight. If I am able to defeat some experienced thug in a fight for my life, I would consider that incredibly lucky. Not sure how you would spin that anti gun. If I couldn't get to my gun, I'd be happy to stab the guy or beat him with a baseball bat.
 

Because you balanced it with feeling bad for shooting someone you felt didn't deserve it. And again you use the word "happy" to stab the guy. That doesn't sound at all like you are counting your blessings, it sounds like you are hoping the right person comes along to give you a legally justified reason to kill.

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7 hours ago, Handyman said:

If I killed some drugged up high school moron that broke in my house looking for some cash, I would feel awful.

If I killed someone that broke into my house that had a weapon on them, I would dance a jig, sleep like a baby, and marvel at my good luck.

I see no difference between these two types of scumbag. Anyone who breaks into someone's house while the resident is home deserves to be shot, for the simple reason that whether they are armed or not, a teen or a career criminal, they know they often must harm whoever is home to get away with their crap. A part of me rejoices, therefore, when I read about such shootings, and my heart sinks when I hear the perp survived.

That is not the point of this discussion, however. 

I don't know your personal history, if you did 7 tours in Afghanistan or just watch a lot of Charles Bronson movies. I do know that stronger men than you, fighting for causes as noble as your dream scenario of shooting a burglar, have been deeply affected by having to kill other members of the Homo sapiens tribe.

The mods for this forum are good, fair-minded guys. They've let me slide a few times for using dicey language outside of the 1A Lounge. But they (and all of us) should take note that comments like yours reflect much worse on our gun culture than any 4 letter word, any slur of gays or blacks, any disparaging reference to a particular scumbag who happens to have been a NJ U.S. Senator.

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The reality is that violence must be met with violence. For decades now we have heard:

"Give them what they want. Your money/possessions/whatever are not worth your life."

This line of thinking has emboldened criminals of all varieties. If every time someone committed a crime they got cut, teeth knocked out or worse, we would see a lot less crime. My personal goal would be to make crime an extremely uncomfortable lifestyle. I don;t care what the antis think. They have already surrendered.

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It also appears you don't care what your fellow gun owners think.  No one is saying that violence shouldn't be met with violence.  What myself and if I may speak for Newt are saying is that your appearance of eagerness at killing someone hurts our cause.

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4 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Don't confuse the completely natural and normal feeling of euphoria that comes after winning a deadly force encounter with bloodlust.

I assume that was meant for me?  I'm not talking about the feeling of euphoria as a result of the adrenaline rush.  I'm talking about someone posting his eagerness to find himself marveling "at my good luck" to be presented with a justified shoot.  That is a perfect example of "bloodlust".  

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Nope, not just you, I was talking to everyone.

There are two really good books on this topic, referred to as "Killology" by the author. They are "On Killing" and "On Combat" both by Lt Col Dave Grossman. I highly recommend them to anyone who may have to use force or violence against another human.

I agree violence must be met with violence.

I certainly am NOT a "Violence never solved anything" kind of guy either.

I agree that the bad guy sealed his fate by first being a bad guy, and second by choosing someone that will fight back as a victim.

I know I will be happy that I won and I survived the encounter in the first few moments after winning a deadly force incident.

I even agree that the world is a better place without real bad guys in it.

What I won't do is wish to be a victim so I can kill someone, even a legit bad guy. And while I will certainly be glad I survived, I won't celebrate the death.

The fact that my attacker has ceased to be an earthy oxygen consumer may very well be a good thing, but the fact that I was just forced to kill someone in defense of me and mine and all the associated headache and heartache that follows is certainly not good.

 

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13 hours ago, Newtonian said:

So you don't think that killing someone will stir up at least as much in you as the last time you tossed and turned over...whatever, someone denting your car perhaps?

No

I'm just a simple minded man.  

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1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

What I won't do is wish to be a victim so I can kill someone, even a legit bad guy. And while I will certainly be glad I survived, I won't celebrate the death.

If anyone thought that is what I was saying, I apologize - I was misconstrued. If you look for trouble, you can usually find it. The "best" fight is the one that never occurs. (But the second best is the one that you win.)

I do vaguely recall an episode in the mid-1980s where an elderly woman had a very expensive TV near an open window on a fire escape. I think she shot three guys coming in the window over the course of a few months. It was somewhere in NY.

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Through many years of service to the .mil, and having the requirements for the use of deadly force beaten into my head when I qualified to carry a weapon. Surprisingly, I can still recite the deadly force mantra from memory, after all these years....

Deadly force is the force a person uses, which he/she knows, or should know, presents the risk of causing death or serious bodily harm. Its use is only justified under conditions of extreme circumstance, when all lesser means have failed or cannot reasonably be employed. 

The Navy had specific conditions where it could be employed, including to prevent death or serious bodily harm to yourself or others, and to protect vital govt property, among other things...after all lesser means failed or could not reasonably be employed, of course.

I think the same goes for an individual...to protect your life and the lives of others, when ALL lesser means fail or cannot reasonably be employed.

I don't belive protecting property falls under this. No one needs to die for stealing a fucking TV or a Blue Ray player.

 

While I don't know the whole story of this situation...If someone breaks into your home, armed, with a baseball bat, knife, a firearm, or even bare hands, then I have to conclude they are there to hurt me or my family. No time to stop and ask them their intentions, I have a duty to protect myself and my family, so I will stop the threat using the appropriate level of force. Period. 

Should that mean that the perp gets shot and killed, so be it. Honestly, I look at it like putting down a coyote that is hunting my livestock. Not a particularly pleasant thing to do, but something that must be done.  I won't bring the fight to anyone, but if someone brings it to my door, I will use the appropriate force required to protect myself and my family.  I think the WORST part would be the investigation afterwards. That I can see losing sleep over. Must be a horrible experience having your actions evicerated, when all you were trying to do was protect your family. Unfortunately NJ law gives the criminal more rights than the victims. 

 

HE mentioned the 'euphoria' one experiences after an encounter. I guess it's different for everyone...here is my little sea story, where i had a close call with using deadly force. 

My submarine was tied to the pier at Chin He, South Korea at the ROK Marine base, this was mid 1990's.  I was the topside watch, armed with a .45. There was a pier sentry armed with a shotgun, and a watch in the sail of the boat armed with an M-16. My pier sentry started shouting 'swimmer in the water' and pointing his weapon at a man swimming near the aft end of the boat. I alerted the crew of the swimmer over the 1MC, drew my weapon, and ran towards the stern shouting at this guy to get out of the water. He climbed up on the boat near the stern planes and onto the hull. He had a big knife and some gear on his waistband, and his hands up. He had no idea what I was saying, but my yelling at him and a .45 pointed at his head got the message across loud and clear. My weapon was hammer back with the safety off, and pointed at this guys head from like 10 feet. The duty officer and the onboard crew rushed up behind me, then put him face down and restrained him until the ROK Marines showed up and took him away. I understand they used some pretty aggressive methods to find out why he was there. Turns out he was an oyster diver who decided it would be a good idea to fish near the Marine base. Turned out NOT to be such a good idea for him. 

After the incident, all 3 of us were relieved of the watch, and we were all interviewed/counseled about the incident by the Weapons Officer (he was the duty officer that day), and the XO. 

The pier sentry was pretty worked up, and nearly dropped his weapon in the water as he pointed it at the swimmer. He was pretty shaken up having to point his weapon at someone. 

I remember being forceful, but totally in control and aware of myself and what was going on around me. I was hoarse after yelling. A little surreal. I was not 'eager' to hurt this guy, but I would have used deadly force on this guy had the situation required it. I remember reciting the mantra in my head while my weapon was drawn. Weird. 

We had divers down all the rest of the day checking every inch of the hull for a device he may have planted. Explosive, tracking, whatever. It was an 'interesting' day to say the least. 

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