blksheep

Sig P320 issues...

116 posts in this topic

At a single incident, I think that conclusion is more than a bit premature. At that point you can very, very easily be dealing with some yutz dicking with the gun. It could be a training issue. Apparantly you can cause this problem by losing a spring during assembly. Removing it also lowers the trigge rpull weight. In some instances 2+2=don't fuck around. It is possible that you decide your officers are too stupid/controllable to keep them from doing stupid shit or disassembling farther than they need to. 

Losing it is possible if you disassemble it that far.  They also could just be old. There was a change to the trigger at some point in production, and the appropriate action for those would to be to take pistols out of service and replace the parts. 320s no longer ship with those triggers. 

But hey, anything for page clicks in this day and age, why look into the details when you can stir up the glock fan boys for cash? 

 

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2 hours ago, blksheep said:

Ask the State Police how they like their Sigs...

I'd like to know what kind of practice ammo they're using. The last I read, their duty ammo worked just fine, but the practice ammo was the issue. If I remember, and feel bold enough, maybe I'll ask them at Safecon (NJSP is supposed to have a booth).

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I'm gonna call BS.  This anti "everything but Glock" is getting old.  

I guess it's payback when it was "never a Glock" when some departments where trying to make the Glock fail.

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2 hours ago, mattm754 said:

I'd like to know what kind of practice ammo they're using. The last I read, their duty ammo worked just fine, but the practice ammo was the issue. If I remember, and feel bold enough, maybe I'll ask them at Safecon (NJSP is supposed to have a booth).

There is a requirement that NJSP use ballistically similar ammo for duty and pracrice ammo.  I can't remember the manufacturer and bullet weight but NJSP ammo all comes a from major US manufacturer (Speer, Federal, etc).  They never used cheap import ammo.

Ammo issues were an issue with semiautos back in the 70s.  Any service pistol made today should not have any ammo issues when shooting quality factory ammo (or quality reloads for that matter).  I have no hate for Sig.  I do think Sigs are overpriced for what you get,

The Troopers I've talked to said about half of the Sigs on the line had problems no matter what ammo was used.  Some Troopers have never had a problem.

My take on the Sig problem NJSP had is because Sig tried to take the cheap way out.  It got to the point NJSP said enough is enough and bought Glocks.

There are many who think Sigs are the finest pistol ever made.  I'm not one of them.

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Well I've been looking around for info on this, because click baity single articles with few details are bullshit, but guns can break. 

This lead me to reread the article. 

 

article quote of Dallas PD 

" We have not currently had any issues with the Sig Sauer P320 handgun."

Article's "explanation"

"Based on an incident that occured on a range during training with Dallas PD, the P320 is being investigated and taken out of service. According to DPD Officers, a P320 discharged as a result of being dropped during training. "

Then why wasn't that in the quoted statement? The new quote is what has been confimed, yet they do not remove the old "quote" that apparantly DPD won't confirm. So...

There are only a couple things I have found that add information. 

1) There's a giant troll fest with someone trolling for the past several months that the sig p320 will fire when dropped. They have posted video of it, but nobody can reproduce it, and they have been caught in many other lies in the process of this BS campaign. The presence of any debate seems to stem from the 320 failing the FBI drop test. However if you dig into that, the failure was breaking floorplates causing a speed unload upon drop. 

2) One dude claiming to be from DPD who got his notice this morning. According to that guy, the issue stems form one officer having an incident with the 320 in the carry frame having a dead trigger after being dropped. I could see why this would cause concern, but it's not firing when dorpped, even a little bit. It's also unconfirmed just like everything else. 

 

 

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TFB seems to have tried to actually do the right thing in an organized manner. 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/08/02/breaking-p320-recall-issued-dallas-police-prohibited-duty-till-repaired/

To summarize:

yes, there was a memo from DPD saying stop using the sig320. 

No, DPD is not aware of any incident that actually occurred. They claim the memo originated as a response to a warning from sig. 

No, sig did not issue any such warning according to sig. 

So right now the official story from both sides boils down to DPD magiced some shit out of thin air unless they can name a name lower on the totem pole at sig, or produce some communications to that effect form the mother ship. 

My net belief at this point is that DPD employs at least one stupid person that someone listens to. I might upgrade that to DPD employs more than one person who needs to be more skeptical and engage in a bit more of trust but verify. 

Knee jerk imagining of the scenario in my brain:

Someone sees dipshit troll's video on the interwebz and complains to someone with something resembling authority/culpability for the 320 approval. We'll call them Bob. 

Bob: oh that looks bad. Calls armorer.

Armorer: hunh? I doubt it but we don't issue the 320, so I'm not certified on it and have non to test. 

Bob: Oh. Calls "sig" where "sig" actually means the rep for the company they contract with for their shit and gets them contract pricing on their 22x guns. 

Bob:hey, is the 320 drop safe? 

Rep:I would assume so. 

Bob: my armorer says it isn't. 

Rep: Looking at your account, we don't sell you 320s, so why are you calling me? The 22Xs meet your criteria. 

Bob: yeah but what about the 320? 

Rep: How would I know? I don't sell them to you and I'm not sig. 

Bob: but your a sig distributer, they'd tell you and we buy a lot of stuff from you. Don't make me get pissy. 

Rep: Jeez fine. In the manual it says dropped guns may discharge like it does in all of their manuals. Tell your officers to stop buying shit I'm not selling them. 

Bob: See I knew you knew the answer. 

Rep: yeah don't forget you are paying for the golf cart rental next tuesday. 

Bob: Sure, bye. 

 

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4 hours ago, raz-0 said:

TFB seems to have tried to actually do the right thing in an organized manner. 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/08/02/breaking-p320-recall-issued-dallas-police-prohibited-duty-till-repaired/

To summarize:

yes, there was a memo from DPD saying stop using the sig320. 

No, DPD is not aware of any incident that actually occurred. They claim the memo originated as a response to a warning from sig. 

No, sig did not issue any such warning according to sig. 

So right now the official story from both sides boils down to DPD magiced some shit out of thin air unless they can name a name lower on the totem pole at sig, or produce some communications to that effect form the mother ship. 

My net belief at this point is that DPD employs at least one stupid person that someone listens to. I might upgrade that to DPD employs more than one person who needs to be more skeptical and engage in a bit more of trust but verify. 

Knee jerk imagining of the scenario in my brain:

Someone sees dipshit troll's video on the interwebz and complains to someone with something resembling authority/culpability for the 320 approval. We'll call them Bob. 

Bob: oh that looks bad. Calls armorer.

Armorer: hunh? I doubt it but we don't issue the 320, so I'm not certified on it and have non to test. 

Bob: Oh. Calls "sig" where "sig" actually means the rep for the company they contract with for their shit and gets them contract pricing on their 22x guns. 

Bob:hey, is the 320 drop safe? 

Rep:I would assume so. 

Bob: my armorer says it isn't. 

Rep: Looking at your account, we don't sell you 320s, so why are you calling me? The 22Xs meet your criteria. 

Bob: yeah but what about the 320? 

Rep: How would I know? I don't sell them to you and I'm not sig. 

Bob: but your a sig distributer, they'd tell you and we buy a lot of stuff from you. Don't make me get pissy. 

Rep: Jeez fine. In the manual it says dropped guns may discharge like it does in all of their manuals. Tell your officers to stop buying shit I'm not selling them. 

Bob: See I knew you knew the answer. 

Rep: yeah don't forget you are paying for the golf cart rental next tuesday. 

Bob: Sure, bye. 

 

Sooo that's how it went down....

idk, I'm fence sitting the 320 right now until @Vicious gets his back.

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1 hour ago, tattooo said:

I read on other forums this story might be BS.....if it were true wouldn't the army cancel their contract or have noticed this in their extensive testing ?

I gotta try to find the movie about the Bradley fighting vehicle and link it here

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon_Wars

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I read on other forums this story might be BS.....if it were true wouldn't the army cancel their contract or have noticed this in their extensive testing ?

I'm wondering if this a fake news type smear tactic being ran by Glock. They may figure it causes enough commotion with the republicans, why not use the same methodology against Sig? If so and proven to be a smear, hope Sig sues the pants off them.


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I'm wondering if this a fake news type smear tactic being ran by Glock. They may figure it causes enough commotion with the republicans, why not use the same methodology against Sig? If so and proven to be a smear, hope Sig sues the pants off them.

 

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Proof of that?

 

I only say that because it emanated with a new poster on SIG Talk saying he was affiliated with Dallas PD, and this ban occurred. There would have to be some affiliation between Glock and this person.

 

Difference between this and the stuff going on in politics is the frequency there. If it occurred multiple times, and there were links to Glock, then you would have a case.

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19 minutes ago, Screwball said:

 

Proof of that?

 

I only say that because it emanated with a new poster on SIG Talk saying he was affiliated with Dallas PD, and this ban occurred. There would have to be some affiliation between Glock and this person.

 

Difference between this and the stuff going on in politics is the frequency there. If it occurred multiple times, and there were links to Glock, then you would have a case.

Was just commenting as to the ire that seems to be going between the two. There are quite a few Sig haters out there. All complaining about them being garbage or expensive. I'm not taking sides with any of this. I only know what I have experienced. I cannot speak for the 320 cause I don't have one. Morew a less a general comment as to all the crazy articles out there.

My boy is a Gunny in the Marines. He's carried and used his Sig all over the world and in battle. He's never had a problem with it. So did Sig screw up with the 320? Dunno.... or are people just joining the hate wagon on a grander scale? :>shrug<:

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Kind of the pot calling the kettle black...

The implying that Glock was behind it, without evidence (my post really just asked what you knew about it, and what would have to be uncovered to prove it), is just the same as saying the P320 fires when dropped, without evidence. Personally, I've seen SIG's response, which I'm sure isn't anything more than damage control. What I want to see is Dallas PD's response on how this turned into a circus. That would be more telling, as SIG responses aren't always considering reality (how about their response that they were working with NJSP to fix their P229s, almost a year after they switched to Glock?)

In regards to SIG hating, I don't feel uncomfortable with my P228 or my P938. There were crappy guns coming out of NH, and still occurs from time to time (NJSP guns, for example), but any manufacturer can have issues. I'd want the gun to be good to go from purchase, but if it goes back and is fixed, I'm ok with that if they take care of the costs. If I have to pay to get it fixed, or if it comes back still broken, then I have a problem with that.

Price, that is something I can say without hesitation. SIG P226s were in the running with the Beretta 92FS for the M9 trial... and viewed to be a similar pistol (both past the trials, with SIG being cheaper per pistol, and Beretta being cheaper per package). Yet, a SIG P226 is $200+ more than a Beretta 92FS... in a comparable gun. That's why SIG won't get me to buy another classic line pistol. My P228 (German made) is sort of collectible, as it is a desirable gun... and I got a great deal from a moderator on BerettaForum.

And for the record, I am still considering a P320... for when I'm out of NJ. By then, any issues would likely have arisen, so I'd feel confident in that decision. In regards to a chassis pistol design, SIG has the market cornered.

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Not a sig hater, ive run Sig 22X pistols extensively without issue...I don't own a 320 but have handled/finger banged numerous 320's at shops as well as shooting a few mags through a couple different pistols privately owned by people in different areas.... none of the ones I shot had any type of failures but I didn't drop them...

however out of the 10-15 times I've handled them in shops I had 5 that had a double click when dry fired... and of those 5...2 that the trigger wouldn't reset if the trigger was held after dry firing and racked and then released no matter how hard you racked ....the trigger wouldn't reset unless you let go before racking....so that alone is why I will never own a 320 ,,,these were not in the same shops or even the same state/region 

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Its hard to determine who is right or wrong these days. In general, I hear people complain for whatever reason.

I will reiterate what I have said for years. People will very rarely leave a good review about a product, but when all goes awry, every crabass unleashes a tirade of complaints. Like a snowball rolling down hill, things escalate quickly. While some may have merit, some are over the top.

 

I have no problem with my Sigs and I too, have a 320 on my list.

I have 3 Sigs now and while people complained about these models, mine run like a well oiled machines. That includes my P226 Extreme, my P938 Extreme and my P229 Legion. I'd trust them any day as my edc.

 

Maybe most of these problems started when Sig started to try compete with the others like the HK VP9 and others in the lesser of the $1K price range. Maybe they cut corners. Maybe there is something deeper we can't see. I have no idea at this time and frankly will not affect my purchase decisions.

 

There are too many out there that purposely try to cause problems.

 

For example, when MAC was carrying a VP9 as his edc. Then decides to beat the crap out of the gun to make it fail then say he cannot condone supporting or carrying it as an edc.

I like his reviews for the most part, but that review was pure bs.

Yes, I know this has nothing to do with the 320. Just making a point. Try to draw the line and determine what's happening yourself. Not depend on other media crap.

If anyone feels that Sig has done a disservice to their brand, by all means don't own them.

 

 

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For example, when MAC was carrying a VP9 as his edc. Then decides to beat the crap out of the gun to make it fail then say he cannot condone supporting or carrying it as an edc.
I like his reviews for the most part, but that review was pure bs.


That kind of really Spark Notes the entire thing down to the point where it isn't the true story.

Tim carried his gun for a year (had two, as well as a Tactical model; he backup was the beaten gun, his carry gun was the one in the new round of torture tests), and even when the video aired that he was throwing the gun, he stated (and did up through the current torture tests) that it wasn't normal use... like him carrying it AIWB. The fault of the magazine paddle breaking... he stated his opinion that he preferred traditional releases, as they don't fail in the same manner. I feel the same, as if all my guns push in to drop the magazine, why get one that pushes down (I've been practicing on a LEM USP40 Compact, which that is something that had to be considered)?

The one that caused the VP9 to choke by putting it in muddy/sediment filled water, I'd say that was probably one of the best tests ever done? Might upset you, but let's say you fall into mud with the gun in your hand? Instinctively, you are putting your hands down to slow your fall, which will put weight behind the gun. Not far fetched... and sediment made the gun unreliable for the rest of that video. It is a piece of data... which people look at to see whether they should buy/not buy a pistol.

Still, he changed from the VP9 to the CZ P-01 (I have the larger SP-01, and love it). He is allowed to do that... just as you are allowed to not consider his results for your opinion. However, for someone to not condone or support carrying a specific gun, Tim does happen to praise it in mostly anytime it comes up on camera. When he did the new standardized torture test, he stated as much (loves how the gun shoots) when he put the first 10 rounds prior to the test. If he was so against it, why put something like that in his video?

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I've seen them all and like you said, later went back to conventional means. I have no issues with the drop in the mud part. Guns like the P30 have really great trials and I'd carry my P30 probably before the VP9 as I'm not into striker fired much, (did replace backplate with a solid one. Don't need a peephole).

I still like MAC but that was extreme and it pist me off. Seeing that, the first thing I said was WTF crawled up his arse. There was no reason for that. It came across as him being angry and used over the top extreme measures. If he kept burying it in mud and water or other tests, I'd be fine. He came out later and calmed down as you mention.

But however you swing, just like when the judge tells the stenographer to strike it from the records and the jury to ignore it. It's already too late. We don't have a brain that can erase crap.

For most people, your reference of falling in the mud rendering your gun useless may never happen in a million years. All I can say is don't fall. Get the right holster and get trained enough where you can make it work quickfastnotslow. Yea yea, but that one time might mean my life. Depending where you live, I hope you may never get to that point. All the years I carried, I was lucky to never have to pull my gun except twice. Never fired it and it was a revolver.

Over time, I determined that you have to sift through this stuff and wonder what comes first. Someone sponsoring him, their reward, will they lie for the paycheck or other. There are too many reviews that are crazy but people not knowing will accept it as gospel. Hence why I'm leery or things now.

Every gun I own, I researched and made my decision of what I know and combined with the outsiders. Several weapons I bought without fondling them, out of state, etc.
I do not regret one purchase. I love every one. My biggest issue would be to pick a favorite. That may never happen. They are all my favorites.

Listen, I dunno what the hell is going on with the 320 and don't really care. I worry about what I have and can only speak as such. But since before the election to date, this country has gone tits up with evil lies and bs. If it works for the Clintons, why not try it with other facets of life.

Finally, shame on whomever purchased these for the dept, military or whatever. If these bean counters would take their heads out of their arses, research properly, stop looking at dollar signs, they wouldn't get to these points.


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I still like MAC but that was extreme and it pist me off. Seeing that, the first thing I said was WTF crawled up his arse. There was no reason for that. It came across as him being angry and used over the top extreme measures. If he kept burying it in mud and water or other tests, I'd be fine. He came out later and calmed down as you mention.

 

Sorry, but have you seen any other of MAC's videos? Him throwing guns and magazines around are not uncommon... unless it is something historic (surplus or rare firearms). He owns a gun shop, and has plenty of firearms at his disposal. Who cares if he tosses a gun around? If it breaks, you see a limit that has been broken. It's not like it is your gun...

 

For most people, your reference of falling in the mud rendering your gun useless may never happen in a million years. All I can say is don't fall. Get the right holster and get trained enough where you can make it work quickfastnotslow. Yea yea, but that one time might mean my life. Depending where you live, I hope you may never get to that point. All the years I carried, I was lucky to never have to pull my gun except twice. Never fired it and it was a revolver.

 

But why act like it is ok?

 

Wasn't ok in Miami back in 1986, when an agent was shot in his hand, and the blood/meat rendered his revolver inoperable after he emptied it into the suspects' vehicle. People have had malfunctions in almost all firearms. One can only hope that it just occurs at the range. Another example would be Trooper Gonzalez in the 1990s... who was killed when his P7M8 jammed while taking fire from a suspect with a shotgun.

 

Just because it isn't mud doesn't mean the video didn't show what could happen.

 

Over time, I determined that you have to sift through this stuff and wonder what comes first. Someone sponsoring him, their reward, will they lie for the paycheck or other. There are too many reviews that are crazy but people not knowing will accept it as gospel. Hence why I'm leery or things now.

 

Understood, but if money or some other benefit was the factor behind the review, wouldn't it be either a total negative or positive review? Why say it is crap because it doesn't work, yet carry the gun for a year and clearly compliment the pistol in videos?

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I've seen many of his videos and others too. But I tend to only watch what I am interested in.

If he likes to throw his toys, let him. Look at it this way. If that particular video is the only one that John Q Public comes across, it could be misleading. BTW, he didn't have a shop in the earlier times. Mud, the blood and the beer. Extreme for public consumption.

 

Its not ok to act like its ok. But again.... be realistic.

My boy got blown up in Afgan... his vehicle was demolished. The 50 was twisted in a pretzel. Nobody had a functional M4.... all trashed. His feet were blown into his shins. Everyone survived because his p226 survived and he was able to leave cover fire just enough for his guys and himself to get to cover. Again, the Sig p226 survived stuck in a Blackhawk piece of shit holster.

Get my drift?

 

Your reference of dropping in the mud, (For some reason I cant multi quote in this piece of crap a, bear with me if I make corrections before and after)... you are using active first responders. Not John Q Public that has a bigger chance falling into a fountain and getting drenched because he was too busy texting.

 

 But he carried it for a year and trashed it only to be followed up with sort of an apology video.

 

Bottom line. Give a review. Fine, give it as a professional such as a leo, soldier, etc. that will benefit them. But don't forget about a review the public who can care less or will shoot 200 shots out of it in a life time, can relate to. Good example was me. Saw that vid and like I said, what the fook.

 

There are too many wannabee gun owners that just want to be part of a fad. Nothing else. Ask the guys on FB Sig Legion page why they call me the 'Hammer'...,

 

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I haven't fired it. I have other striker 9's. I bought this one to use with the red dot. If it has any issues I am going to post my convo with the rep along with the original video of the issues with the optic and an additional video of me chopping it all up on the web. Lol, that would bring me joy. The thrill of a new purchase is long gone, as well as my interest in this thing.

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16 hours ago, Vicious said:

I haven't fired it. I have other striker 9's. I bought this one to use with the red dot. If it has any issues I am going to post my convo with the rep along with the original video of the issues with the optic and an additional video of me chopping it all up on the web. Lol, that would bring me joy. The thrill of a new purchase is long gone, as well as my interest in this thing.

Ok , sooo why your stuff broke?

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In case nobody saw this....

 

08/06/17

From Concealed Nation posting Sig's 08/04/17 response:

 

Rumors have been spreading the past week that revolve around the P320 pistols, the same ones recently adopted by the US Army as their Modular Handgun System. The rumors got so intense that the Dallas Police Department temporarily suspended their approval of officers who chose to carry P320’s on duty.

 

The news? That the P320’s were having drop-related incidents. In other words, the gun was firing if dropped. SIG’s response: that’s completely inaccurate and ridiculous. Take a look at their press release below.

-------

SIG SAUER Reaffirms Safety of P320 Pistol

 

Striker-fired pistol exceeds safety standards of ANSI/SAAMI and U.S. military testing

 

Newington, NH (August 4, 2017) – In response to social media rumors questioning the safety of the P320 pistol, a variant of which was selected by the U.S. government as the U.S. Army’s Modular Handgun System (MHS), SIG SAUER, Inc. has full confidence in the reliability, durability and safety of its striker-fired handgun platform. There have been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in the U.S. commercial market, with hundreds of thousands of guns delivered to date.

 

The P320 meets and exceeds all U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) and Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies.

 

All SIG SAUER pistols incorporate effective mechanical safeties to ensure they only fire when the trigger is pressed. However, like any mechanical device, exposure to acute conditions (e.g. shock, vibration, heavy or repeated drops) may have a negative effect on these safety mechanisms and cause them to not work as designed. This language is common to owner’s manuals of major handgun manufacturers.

 

“SIG SAUER is committed to producing only the finest products,” said Ron Cohen, President and CEO of SIG SAUER. “Safety and reliability have been and always will be paramount to the SIG SAUER brand.”

 

For more information on SIG SAUER, please visit us at sigsauer.com

 

 

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