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CyclingCraig

New Reloader - Selecting A load from a manual

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Brand new reloader here.

I will be loading 9mm, with X-Treme 124gr copper plated round nose bullets and CFE Pistol powder.

Bullet Mfg website says "can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities."

I only have the lee manual right now, but looking up the starting loads:

Book doesn't have load data for CFE Pistol for Plated, but has the following data:

124 gr Jacketed Bullet:

  • Start Grains: 4.9
  • Velocity: 1006
  • Min OAL:1.150

125 gr Jacketed Bullet:

  • Start Grains: 4.2
  • Velocity: 956
  • Min OAL: 1.069

125 gr Lean Bullet:

  • Start Grains: 4.4
  • Velocity: 1041
  • Min OAL: 1.125

So my question is.:

I am assuming I can start with any of those loads as long as I match the respective Min OAL? (Only going to load 5 rounds and start my testing there.)

The difference in the start grain loads is due to the different OAL's, is that correct?  For example, the 125 gr Jacketed has a shorter OAL when compared to the 124 grain data, so bullet is seated deeper, IE: less cartridge volume, creating higher pressures, therefore less powder charge weight for the 125gr data? (Also heavier bullets require less powder, but not sure how much 1 grain affects that)

Thanks

-Craig

Forgot to say:

If it matters, my plan was to start with the 124 gr Jacketed Bullet load data

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OK. Some tips and explanations. 

1) Have you read the fornt half of the lee manual? Cause it explains a lot well. 

2) Lee doesn't generate load data, they aggregate load data form powder manufacturers, bullet makers, etc. These sources have different thresholds for safety margin, use different test barrel fixtures, may be reporting about different generations of a given named powder, etc. IMO in this day and age, jsut go to the powder manufacturer's load data page and work from there first. Sanity check it with the bullet manufacturer or other load manual if you are pushing the high end. 

3) Check if it is jacketed or jacketed hollow point. Bullet construction affects overall length of the bullet, and surface area of the bearing surface. Longer bullet, less case volume, higher pressures with less gas. More beating surface means more friction, which means more force working against the bullet moving, whcih means higher pressures, which means lower max charge wieght. Lead forms a seal and is kind of sticky when put under those pressures, which is why it has lower max charge than slick jacketed projectiles. 

4) In pistol loads, 1 grain is a lot. 

I load a lot of plated. IMO you do the following. All are to powder manufacturer data which I find to be the most frequently updated and most conservative. My experience applies to 9x19mm, .40S&W, and .45 acp. 

Raineir - load to lead data. 

Berrys normal - load to lead data. 

Berrys double struck - can load close to jacketed, I'll use similar weight JHP data for a sanity check on max load. 

Xtreme - load to jacketed data. 

bulletworks - load to jacketed data. 

powerbond - load to jacketed data then ask yourself why you are paying jacketed prices for plated. 

I stick to either extreme or bulletworks for plated these days. Their plating is thick and their lead is harder than the competition. And the price is right. They are very similar, but not the same. 

As a note to trusting the powder manufacturers:

124gr load for CFE from hodgdon is 4.9 start 5.5 max, and it's for their 4" test fixture using berry's 124 plated. You should be safe within that entire range substituting extreme's 124. 

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OK. Some tips and explanations. 
1) Have you read the fornt half of the lee manual? Cause it explains a lot well. 
2) Lee doesn't generate load data, they aggregate load data form powder manufacturers, bullet makers, etc. These sources have different thresholds for safety margin, use different test barrel fixtures, may be reporting about different generations of a given named powder, etc. IMO in this day and age, jsut go to the powder manufacturer's load data page and work from there first. Sanity check it with the bullet manufacturer or other load manual if you are pushing the high end. 
3) Check if it is jacketed or jacketed hollow point. Bullet construction affects overall length of the bullet, and surface area of the bearing surface. Longer bullet, less case volume, higher pressures with less gas. More beating surface means more friction, which means more force working against the bullet moving, whcih means higher pressures, which means lower max charge wieght. Lead forms a seal and is kind of sticky when put under those pressures, which is why it has lower max charge than slick jacketed projectiles. 
4) In pistol loads, 1 grain is a lot. 
I load a lot of plated. IMO you do the following. All are to powder manufacturer data which I find to be the most frequently updated and most conservative. My experience applies to 9x19mm, .40S&W, and .45 acp. 
Raineir - load to lead data. 
Berrys normal - load to lead data. 
Berrys double struck - can load close to jacketed, I'll use similar weight JHP data for a sanity check on max load. 
Xtreme - load to jacketed data. 
bulletworks - load to jacketed data. 
powerbond - load to jacketed data then ask yourself why you are paying jacketed prices for plated. 
I stick to either extreme or bulletworks for plated these days. Their plating is thick and their lead is harder than the competition. And the price is right. They are very similar, but not the same. 
As a note to trusting the powder manufacturers:
124gr load for CFE from hodgdon is 4.9 start 5.5 max, and it's for their 4" test fixture using berry's 124 plated. You should be safe within that entire range substituting extreme's 124. 
I concur. Use powder manufacturers specs and build your own. Polygonal rifling(glock, etc) and traditional barrel rifling will have slight deviation in the amount of powder needed to make pf

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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10 minutes ago, Rnlinebacker said:

I concur. Use powder manufacturers specs and build your own. Polygonal rifling(glock, etc) and traditional barrel rifling will have slight deviation in the amount of powder needed to make pf

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 

Yes. Polygonal increases pressure and will have lower max loads than traditional rifling. 

 

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>>1) Have you read the fornt half of the lee manual? Cause it explains a lot well.

I have, and it does explain a lot.  I just wanted to make sure I had it all straight.

>>2) ...just go to the powder manufacturer's load data page and work from there first..

Cool, great advice

I forgot to include the Hodgen data for the berry's bullet in my post, but it matches the data in the Lee manual exactly, so I assumed that is where Lee got that data from.

>>4) In pistol loads, 1 grain is a lot.

I meant 1 grain of bullet weight not powder charge.. 124 grain bullet VS 125 Grain bullet for the load manuals listing of bullets.  And the lee manual says, it safe to use heavier bullet data if your bullet is lighter. (To an extent).

So is 1 grain of bullet wight a lot?

 

1 hour ago, Rnlinebacker said:

Polygonal rifling(glock, etc) and traditional barrel rifling will have slight deviation in the amount of powder needed to make pf

Not sure how much this affects it, but I'm shooting an XD .Mod2 5" Tactical

 

Thanks for all the great info

1 hour ago, Rnlinebacker said:

Can you get a chrono?

I actually have my own, specially for testing and reloading, Figured it was pretty essential for accurate reloading

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I really mean this nicely, but:

As a new reloader, save yourself a lot of problems and LEARN first. 

Buy some JACKETED, not plated, bullets from a major maker.

Buy a powder that has been around for at least 10 years and is well known for working in the cartridge you want to load. You can look at several manuals and most will tell you what powders worked best for them. I am not sure how long CFE Pistol has been around, but I don't have much data for it. I expect it is very good for 9x19.

After a few hundred rounds of success, you can then move to plated or lead bullets and start trying different powders.

Instead, you start off with plated bullets (that have almost no data available and need special handling) and what is, to me, a relatively new powder so there is very little data to go on.

So, your first time out learning to drive, do you take a Mercedes F1 W08 EQ Power+ or a Corolla to learn how to drive?

Do you take a Yamaha SCR 950 or a Suzuki DR 200 motorcycle for your first lesson?

Hey, I load 9mm. 9x19, 9x21, 9x23, 9x18, and 9x17. Which one of the almost 50 different 9mm cartridges are you loading for?

Oh, of course, 9x19...

>The difference in the start grain loads is due to the different OAL's, is that correct?

NO. All the start load is usually is a 10% reduction in the max load. The max load is determined by the components used and, when comparing your data, I'll bet NONE of the components were the same. COL is NOT the driver of start loads, other than the start load is safe for any normal COL used. The manual's COL may be no more than a short COL they used for testing, to be a worst case, and you should use a longer COL. Learn to determine the COL for yourself.

The sheer fact that they note it as a "MIN COL" tells you not to go shorter. In reality, first work out in your gun what COL works and then start loading. If shorter, you might want to reduce the start load by 2-5%, but I have never found that necessary—but, then again, I always check multiple sources and start at the LOWEST start load.

1) Bullets of the same weight vary in dimensions. The COL in a manual, if it really means anything, only applies to THAT bullet. The dimensions of the bullet determine the max COL before the bullet ogive or shoulder hits the lede.

Your COL (Cartridge Overall Length) is determined by;

your barrel (chamber and throat dimensions)

and

your gun (feed ramp)

and

your magazine (COL that fits magazine and when the magazine lips release the round for feeding)

and

the PARTICULAR bullet you are using.

What worked in a pressure barrel or the lab's gun or in my gun has very little to do with what will work best in your gun.

Take the barrel out of the gun. Create two inert dummy rounds (no powder or primer) at max COL and remove enough case mouth flare for rounds to chamber (you can achieve this by using a sized case—expand-and-flare it, and remove the flare just until the case "plunks" in the barrel and lock the die body down temporarily).

Drop the inert rounds in and decrease the COL until they chamber completely. This will be your "max" effective COL. I prefer to have the case head flush with the barrel hood (or a few mils higher than where the head of an empty case aligns with the barrel, as all cases are too short and I prefer to minimize head space). After this, place the inert rounds in the magazine and be sure they fit the magazine and feed and chamber. Adjust COL until the inert rounds feed and chamber. Note any set-back and note the COL or redo the dummy rounds if need be.

You can also do this for any chambering problems you have. Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop this round in the barrel and rotate it back-and-forth.

Remove and inspect the round:

a) Scratches on bullet--COL is too long

b) Scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp

c) Scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case

d) Scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit

e) Scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.

2) Loading data: If you look at two manuals, you'll see very different start and max loads. This should tell you that:

a) NO manual is perfect

and

b) COMPONENTS have an effect. Unless you have the same LOT of powder, the same LOT and manufacturer of primers, the same cases, the same LOT and manufacturer of bullets, the same COL, and, of course, the same GUN, your results will vary. You can "always" use the start load for any bullet of the same weight and construction. For plated bullets, back when I thought they might be worth using, I always used lead bullet data and never had a problem (other than horrible accuracy)

For this reason, and the fact that twice in my life I found the start load in a manual to be max or over-max with my components, I check multiple sources and start at the lowest start load. I never guess, estimate, or anything else. I start at the lowest start load and work up.

So, I would start at 4.4gn and work up (with MAX probably being somewhere between 5.0 and 5.5gn), watching for pressure and either tracking group size or velocity, whichever is your goal.

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On 8/3/2017 at 11:06 AM, CyclingCraig said:

Brand new reloader here.

I will be loading 9mm, with X-Treme 124gr copper plated round nose bullets and CFE Pistol powder.

Bullet Mfg website says "can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities."

I only have the lee manual right now, but looking up the starting loads:

Book doesn't have load data for CFE Pistol for Plated, but has the following data:

124 gr Jacketed Bullet:

  • Start Grains: 4.9
  • Velocity: 1006
  • Min OAL:1.150

125 gr Jacketed Bullet:

  • Start Grains: 4.2
  • Velocity: 956
  • Min OAL: 1.069

125 gr Lean Bullet:

  • Start Grains: 4.4
  • Velocity: 1041
  • Min OAL: 1.125

So my question is.:

I am assuming I can start with any of those loads as long as I match the respective Min OAL? (Only going to load 5 rounds and start my testing there.)

The difference in the start grain loads is due to the different OAL's, is that correct?  For example, the 125 gr Jacketed has a shorter OAL when compared to the 124 grain data, so bullet is seated deeper, IE: less cartridge volume, creating higher pressures, therefore less powder charge weight for the 125gr data? (Also heavier bullets require less powder, but not sure how much 1 grain affects that)

Thanks

-Craig

Forgot to say:

If it matters, my plan was to start with the 124 gr Jacketed Bullet load data

Is that load data from the Hodgdon website?   You say the book doesn’t have load data and then you provide this.  What’s the source?  The first load is consistent with the manufacturers data for CFE pistol.  

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8 hours ago, Rob0115 said:

Is that load data from the Hodgdon website?   You say the book doesn’t have load data and then you provide this.  What’s the source?  The first load is consistent with the manufacturers data for CFE pistol.  

I'm sorry, the Lee book doesn't have specific data for plated 124gr with CFE Pistol, but it DOES have for Jacketed and Lead

The Source for all the data I listed was from the Lee Manual.

The load data for 124gr Jacketed matches exactly the Hodgdon load data for Berry's HBRN TP. (I assumed that is where the lee book obtained the data from)

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I’ve loaded plenty of extreme in 9, 40, 45 and even 10mm.  Their advice is good to go.   For jacked start a bit below the initial loading and work up.  If you’re using lead load data I’d still start at the intial recommended weight and work up.  A chrony is your friend.  

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I'm not going to quote noylj in entirety because it is too long and most of it isn't what I'm commenting on, but 

1) Jacketed, plated, lead. There's nothing special about jacketed. They can vary in design enough to really jack pressure. The only thing they buy you is, theoretically, no worries about polygonal barrels. But bullet A vs bullet B can have a different enough shape to affect pressure. It saves you nothing unless you go with the specific generation of the specific bullet tested. Which largley means the only thing you can readily and reliably identify are the pricey SD heads like gold dots, etc. This is why you work up from minimum and check for pressure signs. 

For sanity sake, I keep a sample of the bullets I load so I can compare differences in geometry to know if I can reuse my existing loads without making huge errors. If it's longer, you will have to seat deeper to get to mag length, and pressures go up for a given charge. If it has a longer bearing surface, pressures go up for a given charge. The mark one eyeball is usually sufficient to tell if there is a change, and if there is, you back off and work up again. 

2) Go with a powder that has been out there for at least 10 years? Why? This is bullshit. Formulations of powders get changed over time. They aren't the same forever, just similar. This is why noylj likely had issues with a start load being over max. Because they were likely taking a load form a bullet manufacturers load manual that tends ot push the limit on pressures, AND it was likely from old powder done a while ago and the bullet maker just re-used it because they didn't change the bullet shape or composition (or noylj used an old manual). Use what you like, go by the powder manufacturers CURRENT numbers for sanity checks. Use common sense. noylj's logic is old data is tried and true. My logic is old data may be out of date. One of us has seen insane numbers in a manual and loaded bad ammo, one of us has not because he cross checked against current manufacturer recommendations and said that looks insane. 

 

 

 

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I don't care about the AGE of the data, I care about having many data sources. I think I WROTE that.

Yes, I did, twice, use ONE manual for a start load and found that the load was max or over-max in my guns with my components. Thus, why a beginner needs to use a powder with lots of data history so you can look at several manuals and start low. If you only have ONE data source, you have that same issue of how YOUR components match with the ONE data source.

Jacketed bullets don't have to be groove diameter or 0.001" over groove diameter (or, for the HARD alloys, even 0.002" over groove diameter). They can be as much 0.003" smaller than actual groove diameter and still make nice round holes in a target. As a beginner, why start with bullets that need special handling. Why not start with the bullets that are both, in general, most accurate and easiest to load? You are just learning about crimping, so start with a bullet that can take over-crimp and still shoot well.

Just look at how much is written about loading plated vs jacketed or problems with plated vs jacketed. 

Sorry if you don't like my advice, but it was worth every cent you spent to read it.

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9 hours ago, noylj said:

I don't care about the AGE of the data, I care about having many data sources. I think I WROTE that.

Yes, I did, twice, use ONE manual for a start load and found that the load was max or over-max in my guns with my components. Thus, why a beginner needs to use a powder with lots of data history so you can look at several manuals and start low. If you only have ONE data source, you have that same issue of how YOUR components match with the ONE data source.

Jacketed bullets don't have to be groove diameter or 0.001" over groove diameter (or, for the HARD alloys, even 0.002" over groove diameter). They can be as much 0.003" smaller than actual groove diameter and still make nice round holes in a target. As a beginner, why start with bullets that need special handling. Why not start with the bullets that are both, in general, most accurate and easiest to load? You are just learning about crimping, so start with a bullet that can take over-crimp and still shoot well.

Just look at how much is written about loading plated vs jacketed or problems with plated vs jacketed. 

Sorry if you don't like my advice, but it was worth every cent you spent to read it.

1) "Buy a powder that has been around for at least 10 years and is well known for working in the cartridge you want to load. You can look at several manuals and most will tell you what powders worked best for them." Yes, and they can be wrong unless they genuinely update regularly. If they genuinely update regularly they will be adding new powder. Checking multiple sources is good. Trusting something simply because it has been around forever is bad if it is known that said thing changes over time. One of the metrics I use to determine if load data form a given source should be trusted is if it is remotely close to the powder maker's current data, and if they are adding new powders. 

The powder makers are simply NOT publishing dangerous data. They are publishing conservative, current numbers, or informing you they are not conservative numbers. 

2) You said " Buy some JACKETED, not plated, bullets from a major maker." That would imply sierra, hornady, nosler, etc. 

What you say is true about jacketed being forgiving on crimp, which wasn't the question, that was pressure. But jacketed bulk bullets from precision delta, montana gold, rose distributing, etc all share that feature. 

The biggest problem people have loading plated is that they approach it with the attitude of "I'm doing everything right, why won't may plated loads do X". The answer, is like with every bullet, mic it, if it looks in spec, you are actually not doing everything right. People load coated without issues all the time because it looks different and thus the read the damn instructions. 

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Again, I NEVER said anything about the manual age. I said to use a powder that had been around for several years so there are multiple sources of data. Start with something that is well known first.

Do you actually throw away manuals that are more than 5 years old, because that seems to be your argument?

None of your "arguments" mean anything against what I WROTE, rather than what you want to read into them.

Yes, buy 100 jacketed bullets from a major brand, where you can find data for THAT exact bullet, load from start and work up and NOT worry about everything else. Buy 100 jacketed bullets from Montana Gold, Precision Delta, Zero, or RMR, for all I care—but you won't find data for that particular bullet in your manuals.

After the first 100 or so, move on to other bullets, but first LEARN TO RELOAD WITH KNOWN JACKETED BULLETS. It seems clear to me.

I don't even know where "pressure" comes in to it. You start at the start load and work up, same with ALL load development.

All I am saying is:

1) start with jacketed bullets as they are easier to work with. At the VERY beginning, using bullets from a source the also has a load manual is not a bad idea.

2) start with a powder that has a history of successful use over at least a decade such that you can easily find multiple data sources.

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Just to follow up with all the great advice given here, I have read all of it and used all of it.

I was able to get to the range and make some test shots.

Only tested velocity and functionality for the rounds, not tests for accuracy yet.  Wanted to make sure they function first.

Starting with the CFE-Pistol at 4.8 Grains, then moving up to 4.9, 5.1, 5.3. COL:1.150

Avg Vel: 1085, 1118, 1123, 1138

Picked up all cases and check them all, all looked good, no flattened primers, cases looked good.  Even had a friend there who has been loading for a while check them out too. No signs of over pressure.

Being that even my lowest loads still made PF, for my next steps, I'm going to work up a few more loads starting at 4.8 and going down to 4.5 and start my checking functionality and accuracy from bench rest.

 

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