Is this a pistol grip by NJ standards?

[mrmister2000 0]

Hi all. New to the forum.. and looks like I'm reviving an old thread. I just ordered one of these Strike Industries finned grips tonight (the more expensive one of the two), but am now wondering if I should cancel it before it ships.

It truly is BS that we live in a state where the penalties are so stiff for "little things" and yet no gov't bodies can get together and reach a consensus to define exactly WHAT is legal and illegal.

Making up the meaning of laws on a case-by-case basis and based upon personal opinions and then sending people to court when there is no clear definition stating what is and isn't contraband makes absolutely no sense. It's like an officer pulling you over and then when you ask them why they pulled you over they say "I'm not sure, really, but I just felt like I needed to pull you over for some reason... in the absence of any concrete facts to which to base my decision to pull you over."

I am just FLABERGASTED that there hasn't been a class action lawsuit against the State of NJ at least requiring the state to CLEARLY and SPECIFICALLY LIST the true and agreed-upon legality of those items which many of us agree come under the "gray area" description.

[SmittyMHS 542]

13 hours ago, mrmister2000 said:

Hi all. New to the forum.. and looks like I'm reviving an old thread. I just ordered one of these Strike Industries finned grips tonight (the more expensive one of the two), but am now wondering if I should cancel it before it ships.

It truly is BS that we live in a state where the penalties are so stiff for "little things" and yet no gov't bodies can get together and reach a consensus to define exactly WHAT is legal and illegal.

Making up the meaning of laws on a case-by-case basis and based upon personal opinions and then sending people to court when there is no clear definition stating what is and isn't contraband makes absolutely no sense. It's like an officer pulling you over and then when you ask them why they pulled you over they say "I'm not sure, really, but I just felt like I needed to pull you over for some reason... in the absence of any concrete facts to which to base my decision to pull you over."

I am just FLABERGASTED that there hasn't been a class action lawsuit against the State of NJ at least requiring the state to CLEARLY and SPECIFICALLY LIST the true and agreed-upon legality of those items which many of us agree come under the "gray area" description.

I fear that they would go full retard and ban semi autos totally. That would make it easier for them.

[Bob2222 260]

22 hours ago, mrmister2000 said:

Hi all. New to the forum.. and looks like I'm reviving an old thread. I just ordered one of these Strike Industries finned grips tonight (the more expensive one of the two), but am now wondering if I should cancel it before it ships.

It truly is BS that we live in a state where the penalties are so stiff for "little things" and yet no gov't bodies can get together and reach a consensus to define exactly WHAT is legal and illegal.

Making up the meaning of laws on a case-by-case basis and based upon personal opinions and then sending people to court when there is no clear definition stating what is and isn't contraband makes absolutely no sense. It's like an officer pulling you over and then when you ask them why they pulled you over they say "I'm not sure, really, but I just felt like I needed to pull you over for some reason... in the absence of any concrete facts to which to base my decision to pull you over."

I am just FLABERGASTED that there hasn't been a class action lawsuit against the State of NJ at least requiring the state to CLEARLY and SPECIFICALLY LIST the true and agreed-upon legality of those items which many of us agree come under the "gray area" description.

The New York SAFE Act was passed in 2013 and it's still unclear what it means.

So far they have demonstrated that the 7 round limit actually means a 10 round limit. (So 7=10 in the Empire State.)

S&W sells a version of the Jersey M&P 15 (Fixed stock, no bayonet lug, no flash hider) with a Strike Industries fin grip (the cheap $9 one) in California. The California-legal fin grips (see below) seem to be sold in gun stores in some NY counties but not in others. FN sells their a version of their AR with a Herra CQR stock in California.  The Herra stocked AR is also sold by AR gun stores in NY. But not directly by FN. The big manufacturers aren't touching the NY AR market with tongs at this time.

Nobody wants to be (and pay for) the test case (s)in court.

The Thordsen Custom stocks (the ones that the first models looked like they were built by lawyers out of discarded plastic model sprue) seem to be California legal and are sold in both Cali and by AR gun stores in NY. Are they legal in NY? Who knows, the SAFE act is so badly written. But they are sold in NY.

Rifle stocks (and in particular Monte Carlo rifle stocks) "protrude conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon but that doesn't mean that they are "A pistol grip".

By definition a pistol grip would seem to mean a grip that can be held like a pistol, but I'm Old School where words had actual meanings when I was in school. So who knows.

Eventually, I think it will come down to "common use for legal purposes", so I wouldn't do anything that cost me more than $10 or is irreversible to comply until this all gets sorted out. I'd certainly recommend complying, though. Do you have a friend in Pennsylvania? 

 

 

Quote

 

In California, this is what the law say's as to what qualifies as a "Pistol Grip" on a rifle. 

"A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon."

“Definition-
(d) “pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon” means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top exposed portion of the trigger while firing.”

The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:

Click here for California Department Of Justice "Bureau of Firearms" Pistol Grip Definition Diagram.

 

 

Quote

 

Although these firearms are centerfire, semi-automatic rifles capable of accepting detachable

magazines, they do not have conspicuously protruding pistol grips because none of the grips allow for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

 

 

As above, that's what the words mean in California. But this is The People's Republic of New Jersey, so who knows what words mean.

 

The grip below ("free" if you spend a couple minutes with a saw) would seem to neither be a pistol grip nor protrude prominently beneath the firearm's action, but who knows. I'm not a lawyer and I don't need to stay in Holiday Inns any more, so it's safest to ignore anything I say.

 

[JackDaWack 2,370]

I don't actually think NJ defines what a pistol grip is for rifles, all it states is the location of it. 

 

[SJG 233]

toss a coin, test case, don't think you want to be the test case even if the police do not have pistol grip check points. Still not sure what this looks like when installed. 

[Bob2222 260]

On 5/21/2018 at 8:34 PM, SJG said:

Still not sure what this looks like when installed. 

Quote

N.J.S.2C:39-1

z.     "Pistol grip" means a well-defined handle, similar to that found on a handgun, that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, and which permits the shotgun to be held and fired with one hand.

I'm no lawyer but I did need to did stay in a Holiday Inn more than once -- and it seems to me that for something to be a pistol grip you'd need to be able to grip it like a pistol.

Or grip it at all without dropping the rifle.

Then again, who knows? The meanings of words change. I know that when I was in grade school if I had answered the "What is marriage" question with the current definition, the nuns would have called my parents and expelled me.

Below is what a Strike Industries product looks like on the rifle S&W is selling in California. (The cheap, $9 one.) I did check in on the NY board and more recent posts there report fin grips being sold by LGSs without problems.

But still no major AR manufacturers seem to be selling NY compliant models.

[SIGMan Freud 93]

On 9/1/2017 at 3:16 PM, Screwball said:

 

There isn't a charge specifically for a flash hider... as they are perfectly legal for non-semi-auto firearms. It is an "assault weapon" charge...

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2014/04/assault_weapon_newark_airport_arrest.html

http://www.nj.com/middlesex/index.ssf/2015/09/sheriffs_officer_arrested_for_assault_had_illegal.html

https://patch.com/new-jersey/newarknj/newark-man-with-assault-rifle-arrested

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/galloway-police-nab-a-c-man-with-assault-rifle-heroin/article_77dd3f31-8ab2-5012-ac23-b378c82b038a.html
 

 

In all of those cases were, there were other, serious AF charges precipitating the arrest (drug crime, stolen car, aggravated assault, carrying on plane). The assault weapon charges were added on. I doubt there's any case where some average Joe was charged with a AWB crime just minding his own business at the range. I've yet to see anyone anywhere checking that your stock is pinned, your mags are blocked and that your MD is pinned. I certainly wouldn't violate the law - too much risk.

I will point out that the MA1 is a NJ-compliant rifle with a flash hider (which is allowed because the rifle doesn't have a pistol grip).

I have interest in the OP's question for a similar reason - I need a new muzzle device and wanted to try out a few before pinning and welding one on permanently. The only way I can think to do that is (1) go out of state or (2) remove an evil feature. I can't permanently affix the magazine, so I'm thinking if I use a non-pistol grip stock, the unpinned device would be OK. 

Was thinking about this Hera CQR stock (assuming the grip is not considered a pistol grip).

[vladtepes 1,060]

On 7/2/2019 at 3:08 PM, SIGMan Freud said:

In all of those cases were, there were other, serious AF charges precipitating the arrest (drug crime, stolen car, aggravated assault, carrying on plane). The assault weapon charges were added on. I doubt there's any case where some average Joe was charged with a AWB crime just minding his own business at the range. I've yet to see anyone anywhere checking that your stock is pinned, your mags are blocked and that your MD is pinned. I certainly wouldn't violate the law - too much risk.

I will point out that the MA1 is a NJ-compliant rifle with a flash hider (which is allowed because the rifle doesn't have a pistol grip).

I have interest in the OP's question for a similar reason - I need a new muzzle device and wanted to try out a few before pinning and welding one on permanently. The only way I can think to do that is (1) go out of state or (2) remove an evil feature. I can't permanently affix the magazine, so I'm thinking if I use a non-pistol grip stock, the unpinned device would be OK. 

Was thinking about this Hera CQR stock (assuming the grip is not considered a pistol grip).

that is a pistol grip as defined by NJ law... IMO.. so having that does nothing to remove an evil feature.. as covered extensively in this thread... 

[NJRulz 36]

1 hour ago, vladtepes said:

that is a pistol grip as defined by NJ law... IMO.. so having that does nothing to remove an evil feature.. as covered extensively in this thread... 

How is it then that the Rock Island Armory VR80 semi auto shotgun (AR platform shotgun) with exactly the same “grip” as in the photo above NJ legal? (Since semi auto shotguns are not permitted to have a pistol grip )

[vladtepes 1,060]

32 minutes ago, NJRulz said:

How is it then that the Rock Island Armory VR80 semi auto shotgun (AR platform shotgun) with exactly the same “grip” as in the photo above NJ legal? (Since semi auto shotguns are not permitted to have a pistol grip )

How do FFLs sell AK variants when they are specifically banned..

I can’t tell you why this person does this.. or that person does that..

all i can tell you.. is if you read the description of pistol grip.. it’s a pistol grip.. no question about it..

 

[vladtepes 1,060]

3 hours ago, NJRulz said:

How is it then that the Rock Island Armory VR80 semi auto shotgun (AR platform shotgun) with exactly the same “grip” as in the photo above NJ legal? (Since semi auto shotguns are not permitted to have a pistol grip )

I mean lets just be real.. 

"Pistol grip" means:

•  well defined handle, similar to that found on a handgun,  - CHECK
• that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, - CHECK
• and which permits the firearm to be held and fired with one hand. - CHECK (keep in mind it just says that it can be.. not can be comfortably... or practically) 

you have to understand.. people ask questions.. you read the law.. and it is what it is.. are there shops not following this or that.. will the state prosecute.. I have no idea.. I am just answering based on what it is.. 

[formula11 0]

https://www.sparrowdynamics.com/Featureless-Grip-AR-p/crg-15.htm how about this

[Krdshrk 2,766]

Looks like something made for NY.  Hard to say for NJ

[Jonny B Goods 0]

I have been recently thinking about this topic since I saw a adapter that I can attach to my muzzle break and blow gases and noise forward. The muzzle I have is pinned & welded and it is a loud build. Not very pleasant for the person that is standing in the both next to mine nor in a indoor range. I was wondering if a Hera CQR with the thumb hole cover wouldn’t fall in the group of Pistol grips?

It’s ether find I way or remove my pistol grip and safety switch to be able to put a forward barrel shroud on my rifle. Lol at least I won’t be scaring ppl with the loud blast. 

[formula11 0]

You know if the pin and weld was done right the muzzle device could be removed 

[vladtepes 1,060]

20 hours ago, Jonny B Goods said:

I have been recently thinking about this topic since I saw a adapter that I can attach to my muzzle break and blow gases and noise forward. The muzzle I have is pinned & welded and it is a loud build. Not very pleasant for the person that is standing in the both next to mine nor in a indoor range. I was wondering if a Hera CQR with the thumb hole cover wouldn’t fall in the group of Pistol grips?

It’s ether find I way or remove my pistol grip and safety switch to be able to put a forward barrel shroud on my rifle. Lol at least I won’t be scaring ppl with the loud blast. 

 

to me... that is not really a pistol grip per NJ wording.. .

""Pistol grip" means a well defined handle, similar to that found on a handgun, that protrudes

conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, and which permits the firearm to be held and fired

with one hand."

but the problem is no-one can really answer your question.. because as with anything vague you could be charged and have to fight it in court... but..

is that a well defined handle similar to a handgun? not really.... 
does it protrude beneath the action? kind of but it almost looks intentionally swept back... 
can you hold and fire with one hand? probably not easily... 

 

but again as with anything in a state that is completely anti gun.... will you have to defend your position? probably not.. but maybe..  

[Jonny B Goods 0]

3 hours ago, formula11 said:

You know if the pin and weld was done right the muzzle device could be removed 

Yes, I know, but is a good barrel and muzzle combo. I would like to show my friends or any new shooter how muzzle device works, If they are interested in feeling/hearing the muzzle blast.

[Zeke 5,496]

2 hours ago, Jonny B Goods said:

Yes, I know, but is a good barrel and muzzle combo. I would like to show my friends or any new shooter how muzzle device works, If they are interested in feeling/hearing the muzzle blast.

Get a clamp on blast deflector..

what is the brake?

[Jonny B Goods 0]

On 3/8/2020 at 3:06 PM, Zeke said:

Get a clamp on blast deflector..

what is the brake?

I have a Lantac dragon break and was planning to get the lantac BMD (blast mitigation device) gen 1. All I would have to do is slip the adapter around the break and tighten 2 screws, than the BMD slides in and locks in place.

[Zeke 5,496]

22 minutes ago, Jonny B Goods said:

I have a Lantac dragon break and was planning to get the lantac BMD (blast mitigation device) gen 1. All I would have to do is slip the adapter around the break and tighten 2 screws, than the BMD slides in and locks in place.

Do that 

[Jonny B Goods 0]

Just now, Zeke said:

Do that 

I would have to use something that doesn’t fall into NJ definition of a pistol grip.

[Contrvlr 17]

24 minutes ago, Jonny B Goods said:

I would have to use something that doesn’t fall into NJ definition of a pistol grip.

Why ?

[Zeke 5,496]

7 hours ago, Jonny B Goods said:

I would have to use something that doesn’t fall into NJ definition of a pistol grip.

No

[Downtownv 1,035]

NcStar developed one solely for the California law. It is acceptable, there. I would assume this rule copied theirs.

[Jonny B Goods 0]

17 hours ago, Contrvlr said:

Why ?

 

10 hours ago, Zeke said:

No

The Lantac BMD acts like a flash suppressor and it is stated on their website that it reduces muzzle flash. So, it falls into one of the features for NJ’s assault rifle. I was just here asking if a Hera CQR falls into the definition of a pistol grip. Which it kinda does because you can Kinda hold the rifle with one hand aiming towards the ground and fire it, but to hold it in front with one hand and aim is impossible. Plus the grip is apart of the stock but it still protrudes beneath the action of the rifle. So I guess we are all stuck with our one feature pistol grips on our semi-auto rifles that have a detachable mag. 

[Zeke 5,496]

11 minutes ago, Jonny B Goods said:

 

The Lantac BMD acts like a flash suppressor and it is stated on their website that it reduces muzzle flash. So, it falls into one of the features for NJ’s assault rifle. I was just here asking if a Hera CQR falls into the definition of a pistol grip. Which it kinda does because you can Kinda hold the rifle with one hand aiming towards the ground and fire it, but to hold it in front with one hand and aim is impossible. Plus the grip is apart of the stock but it still protrudes beneath the action of the rifle. So I guess we are all stuck with our one feature pistol grips on our semi-auto rifles that have a detachable mag. 

I dunno bro.... you don’t have a threaded barrel. I’m getting a warden for my surefire,( same thing) so @Scorpio64 won’t cry like a bitch anymore. You’re threaded barrel was one evil feature.

@High Exposure

[Scorpio64 3,364]

1 hour ago, Zeke said:

so @Scorpio64 won’t cry

[Jonny B Goods 0]

3 hours ago, Zeke said:

I dunno bro.... you don’t have a threaded barrel. I’m getting a warden for my surefire,( same thing) so @Scorpio64 won’t cry like a bitch anymore. You’re threaded barrel was one evil feature.

@High Exposure

I’m about to remove my pistol grip and have no safety. To be able to put that adapter on my rifle with no worries lol. And the surefire adapter looks great.

[vladtepes 1,060]

On 3/10/2020 at 8:45 PM, Jonny B Goods said:

I’m about to remove my pistol grip and have no safety. To be able to put that adapter on my rifle with no worries lol. And the surefire adapter looks great.

what is this crazy talk... 

you are trying to solve a non existent problem.. augmenting your weapon system to some goofy less functional configuration so you can spare the people next to you at the range.. you are IMO on the wrong track.. 

built the weapon so it functions the best.. and if being next to you at the range makes them sad.. tell them to toughen up... 

this whole not a pistol grip.. removing the pistol grip.. its crazy talk.. I shoot a 7.5in SBR... you think your gun is loud? it puts 2ft fire balls out of the front of it.. if people next to me don't like it they can piss off.. I would NEVER compromise the weapon over that.. 

[Bt Doctur 175]

another couple of months of this virus and we`ll all be carrying sawed-off`s