Sub 50oz AR Pistol: Would It Be Legal?

[RedBowTies88 41]

So I'm working on an ultra-lightweight (4lbs~) NJ compliant rifle build, and that had me thinking; what if I could build a pistol to come in under 50oz unloaded? 

As far as I know, it would have to absolutely be under 50oz unloaded (does that mean empty mag or no mag?) it could not have a hand guard (barrel shroud) of any type, and the muzzle would have be thread-less. 

If all of that could be accomplished (seems possible, although difficult) is there any other legislation that would render one illegal? What about starting from a stripped lower that I didn't use a pistol permit to acquire?

curious about everyone's thoughts. 

[leadunderpressure 52]

The difficulty is that the statue says under 50oz as manufactured. I'd would say that at a minimum you'd need a pistol registered lower to start from else you'd risk accusations of building an sbr.

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[RedBowTies88 41]

But don't lower transfer as a "firearm" and not technically a rifle or pistol? I'm curious if any FFL's would actually transfer me a stripped lower as a "handgun". I do have permits to burn... 

"as manufactured" is an interesting point. The lower is certainly manufactured at well under 50oz...

[Krdshrk 3,877]

There have been other threads about this - even looking at ultra lightweight parts, you're still extremely hard pressed to get under the 50oz weight limit.  The only way the few current legal ones are able to work are that they have proprietary bolts/carriers/buffer systems, plastic LPKs, etc.

[RedBowTies88 41]

I'm purchasing most of that for my rifle build, I believe it would be possible. I'm think the sub 60oz project guy ended up at something like 58oz with a 16" barrel and a 5-6oz handguard. 

The "unloaded weight" being with or without magazine would be a factor though. 

[PK90 3,570]

You won't be able to get it under the weight limit unless you go all plastic and turn down the barrel.

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

The Jersey-legal Bushmasters and ProOrds (both now out of production) have carbon-15 lowers and uppers, metal LPKs, shorter-than-normal bolt carriers (with standard bolts) and proprietary plastic buffer tubes and skinny buffer springs.

I have a polymer lower in my safe, transferred as a handgun on a permit (by PK90 when he was still here) awaiting the time when one of my factory carbon-15 lowers fails and needs replacing.

The factory 7.5" fluted and/or govt profile (skinny in the middle) barrel really helps to shave weight off the finished build.

I had one of them out at SJSC last week (at the final fun night of the Youth Rifle League) and the sucker is still worthy of its name - "Thunder and Lightning" !!

[RedBowTies88 41]

man, all this doubt on the possibility of it really has me wanting to do it just to see if I can prove everyone wrong. 

That isn't the point of this thread however, the point is that IF it could be done, would it be legal? 

If a full size 16" rifle can be built to be 58oz, (look up sub-60oz AR) then I do believe it would be possible to shave another 8-9oz with a barrel less than half the length and forgoing the handguard completely. 

Like I said, I'll have everything I need besides the barrel and pistol buffer tube once I'm done my rifle project. It will be easy to grab those and weight them. 

[RedBowTies88 41]

10 hours ago, njJoniGuy said:

The Jersey-legal Bushmasters and ProOrds (both now out of production) have carbon-15 lowers and uppers, metal LPKs, shorter-than-normal bolt carriers (with standard bolts) and proprietary plastic buffer tubes and skinny buffer springs.

I have a polymer lower in my safe, transferred as a handgun on a permit (by PK90 when he was still here) awaiting the time when one of my factory carbon-15 lowers fails and needs replacing.

The factory 7.5" fluted and/or govt profile (skinny in the middle) barrel really helps to shave weight off the finished build.

I had one of them out at SJSC last week (at the final fun night of the Youth Rifle League) and the sucker is still worthy of its name - "Thunder and Lightning" !!

Does that thing make it under the 50oz requirement even with an empty magazine installed? I recently watched Forgotten Weapons video on one, pretty neat. 

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

I don't have a scale that precise with that capacity.

The post office frowns upon bringing evil things in just to use their scale!

For that matter, so does ShopRite.

[PK90 3,570]

No mag is used to calculate the weight. It is legal to build one on a permit. Good luck. [emoji12]

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[RedBowTies88 41]

35 minutes ago, PK90 said:

No mag is used to calculate the weight. It is legal to build one on a permit. Good luck.

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That makes sense, because then it could be made illegal just by running a different magazine. 

 

That 58oz AR I mentioned earlier was WITH a slightly modified 10rd gi mag. 

[ChrisJM981 924]

3 hours ago, RedBowTies88 said:

That makes sense, because then it could be made illegal just by running a different magazine. 

 

That 58oz AR I mentioned earlier was WITH a slightly modified 10rd gi mag. 

I was looking into this a while back. I put it on the back burner when I couldn't find a FFL to transfer a lower with a pistol permit. It's listed as "other" on the 4473. ATF states you can make a pistol out of a lower. My question is if NJ has any other requirements for such. 

[RedBowTies88 41]

I would have to make a call to my FFL and ask, I would imagine it may be kind of difficult to find someone willing. 

[PK90 3,570]

A receiver is a receiver. What if you were purchasing a 1911 frame? You would use a permit. Same for an AR receiver. 

A frame/receiver, with or without a stock, should have been logged in as a receiver. The dealer should mark it as an "other" on the 4473, and transfer it to you on a pistol permit.

[RedBowTies88 41]

I agree with that, but I think that because most FFL's will have the same mentality as the majority of those in this thread (that a legal AR pistol build is an impossibility) they will be hesitant. 

[PK90 3,570]

Just tell them you are building a single shot .50BMG bolt-action pistol.

[RedBowTies88 41]

The perfect solution. 

 

Another question: If I have a lower transferred to me on a permit, would it still be possible to use it for a rifle build should the pistol thing not work out?

[PK90 3,570]

Yup.

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[amram 0]

On 9/1/2017 at 4:36 PM, leadunderpressure said:

.....  I'd would say that at a minimum you'd need a pistol registered lower to start from else you'd risk accusations of building an .sbr..
 

3

Yes, get PPP and buy the stripped lower with it as a pistol. Then weigh all your components as you build it... Check out the light-weight AR carbine builds that have been getting a lot of gun rag and web "How To" articles that have been appearing lately. Titanium and aluminium bits and perhaps this receiver set: https://www.kaiserus.com/product/ksp-us-x-7-polymer-ar-15-lightweight-receiver-set/  They also have a titanium BC which is very light. Maybe you can even get a carbon fiber-wrapped 9"barrel. !!!

[ChrisJM981 924]

@RedBowTies88 Did you pursue building one?

[RedBowTies88 41]

I'm still acquiring parts. I'm working on both a DMR and lightweight race gun at the moment. Since the lightweight BC is so expensive I'm planning On sharing that between builds. 

Btw, I did finally pick up and install the polymer LPK from new frontier. Hard to believe that could even work consisting how cheesy and light it feels, but I'll be dammed if that trigger isn't excellent. Also EXTREMELY light. Like it doesn't feel like a LPK when you pick up the bag. 

[KT11 0]

On 9/2/2017 at 4:28 PM, PK90 said:

Just tell them you are building a single shot .50BMG bolt-action pistol.

To go with this line of thought and with all the new proposed bills on AR’s, I’ve seen a few companies such as POF and Lantac making bolt action AR uppers. Would it be legal to build a pistol, with a lower receiver bought on a pistol permit and a bolt action upper?

If so, with that train of thought you could potentially build an AR pistol with all features including hand guard and no weight limit since it’s not semi auto correct?

[PK90 3,570]

To go with this line of thought and with all the new proposed bills on AR’s, I’ve seen a few companies such as POF and Lantac making bolt action AR uppers. Would it be legal to build a pistol, with a lower receiver bought on a pistol permit and a bolt action upper?
If so, with that train of thought you could potentially build an AR pistol with all features including hand guard and no weight limit since it’s not semi auto correct?

If you have no AR semi upper, then yes, imo.

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