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Howard

How the police REALLY trace guns

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This is a very interesting article on what happens when the police recover a gun and go to trace it - slightly different than on TV and in the movies.

https://www.gq.com/story/inside-federal-bureau-of-way-too-many-guns

There are a couple of things this long article does not seem to address - like what happens with private sales and when god forbid a criminal is able to steal a gun.

 

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I couldn't get to the end of it but I saw no mention of the fact that the 4473 doesn't have any details of the gun recorded at all. It's all in the FFL bound book. The existence of the 4473 is irrelevant.

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I couldn't get to the end of it but I saw no mention of the fact that the 4473 doesn't have any details of the gun recorded at all. It's all in the FFL bound book. The existence of the 4473 is irrelevant.

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That is a good point Stu. I wonder if this magical place even exists now.

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I am not reading that whole article, but contrary to what I read, not all traces are done by hand. Most "Time To Crime" traces are short. The dealer still in business has the records in his possession. It is an easy search for the dealer. Very little searches need to go to the NTC.

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1 hour ago, Mr.Stu said:

I couldn't get to the end of it but I saw no mention of the fact that the 4473 doesn't have any details of the gun recorded at all. It's all in the FFL bound book. The existence of the 4473 is irrelevant.

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Check out Page 3 Section D. I think those are relevant details - or am I missing something?

https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download

Adios,

Pizza Bob

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Check out Page 3 Section D. I think those are relevant details - or am I missing something?
https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download
Adios,
Pizza Bob
Well blow me down. I reckon I was confusing it with the NJNICS.

I stand corrected.

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Well blow me down. I reckon I was confusing it with the NJNICS.

I stand corrected.

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I think the confusion is that info is not on the part we fill out, it gets added after we sign it and hand it to the sales person. I know when I have bought stuff they always open the case and check the S/N and write it somewhere on the form.

But the issue is still that most criminals don't go through nice and either steel or otherwise get their guns. Then there are long guns where there is no trace of where a Person to person sale went even in New Jermany where there is the COE but it never gets filed.

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In New Jersey a Hand gun's s/n is on the Purchase permit at time of sale.

The white copy of the permit is sent into NJSP - Data reduction unit, which records

all the s/n's to last know owner.

In the case of a state where no permit is required, if law enforcement really wanted to trace

a firearm, they would contact the mfg (or US importer) who would have a record of which dist. 

that gun was sold to, then onto the dist. to see which dealer it was sold to, and then to the dealer

to see who they sold it to (this is where the 4473 would com into play), and then to that person.....

IF they really,really wanted to.........

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10 hours ago, Pizza Bob said:

Check out Page 3 Section D. I think those are relevant details - or am I missing something?

https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download

Adios,

Pizza Bob

I was going to point out section d questions 24-28 is all the data on the firearm.  

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9 hours ago, JT Custom Guns said:

In New Jersey a Hand gun's s/n is on the Purchase permit at time of sale.

The white copy of the permit is sent into NJSP - Data reduction unit, which records

all the s/n's to last know owner.

In the case of a state where no permit is required, if law enforcement really wanted to trace

a firearm, they would contact the mfg (or US importer) who would have a record of which dist. 

that gun was sold to, then onto the dist. to see which dealer it was sold to, and then to the dealer

to see who they sold it to (this is where the 4473 would com into play), and then to that person.....

IF they really,really wanted to.........

The details of a case I'm familiar with (but not involved in) are sealed so I can't betray any confidences here but, this is exactly how a gun that was used in a crime was traced be the feds for prosecution.  They went all the way back to the manufacturer and put it right into the defendant's hands.  Like Hollywood portrays, the manufacturer has every detail right down to the numbering of parts in the piece cataloged and filed.  Like JT says though it's if they want to go through it. In this case - they did.

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This is all well and good, but how often does the bad guy leave the gun at the scene of the crime for the authorities to find.  Without it they have nothing.  What you actually see all the time in the movies is that they dig the squashed bullet out of a wall and bring it back to the lab and almost instantaneously match it to a gun.  Here I call total BS.  First there is virtually no record of what bullets look like after they come out of a given gun.  Some states have tried this but mostly gone no where.  Then there is the issue of what can you really get from a squashed bullet even if you had that database to go back to.  Then the little secret that they don't tell you, people can change barrels in guns so the database is totally worthless if that is done.  Much of the TV and movies is just pure BS.

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7 hours ago, Howard said:

 What you actually see all the time in the movies is that they dig the squashed bullet out of a wall and bring it back to the lab and almost instantaneously match it to a gun.  Here I call total BS.  First there is virtually no record of what bullets look like after they come out of a given gun.  Some states have tried this but mostly gone no where.  

Not so fast there Howard. A Forensic Firearm Examiner can tell a lot from your "squashed bullet". General characteristics such as rifling twist and direction, number and type of lands & grooves and bullet diameter and weight can all point to a specific manufacturer and type or model of weapon from which the bullet was fired. Furthermore, there are databases that can be used to see if the weapon that fired a particular bullet under examination, had been used in a crime previously. And, of course, once a gun is found it can be ascertained whether or not a particular bullet was fired from that particular gun.

What has not led to any crime solving are the misguided efforts of legislatures passing laws mandating fired-case databases - an expensive folly that has gone nowhere.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

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24 minutes ago, Pizza Bob said:

Not so fast there Howard. A Forensic Firearm Examiner can tell a lot from your "squashed bullet". General characteristics such as rifling twist and direction, number and type of lands & grooves and bullet diameter and weight can all point to a specific manufacturer and type or model of weapon from which the bullet was fired. Furthermore, there are databases that can be used to see if the weapon that fired a particular bullet under examination, had been used in a crime previously. And, of course, once a gun is found it can be ascertained whether or not a particular bullet was fired from that particular gun.

What has not led to any crime solving are the misguided efforts of legislatures passing laws mandating fired-case databases - an expensive folly that has gone nowhere.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

I guess what I am saying Bob is that all you have to do after you use the gun is change the barrel and destroy the old one - problem solved.  I know this is harder, but still possible, for you wheel gun guys ;)       **** I am in no way suggesting this is what a criminal should do and take no liability as to what such people may read on the internet and decide to do of their own accord :) 

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3 minutes ago, Howard said:

I guess what I am saying Bob is that all you have to do after you use the gun is change the barrel and destroy the old one - problem solved.  I know this is harder, but still possible, for you wheel gun guys ;)       **** I am in no way suggesting this is what a criminal should do and take no liability as to what such people may read on the internet and decide to do of their own accord :) 

That's nothing new. That option has existed since the advent of the rifled barrel, and yet I don't ever recall a case where this was the method the perpetrator used to avoid prosecution. That would lead me to believe that the vast majority of criminals are not exactly smart.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

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29 minutes ago, goose54 said:

You guys ever think about the hammer marks or firing pin marks....... :) On and On it goes

There are no hammer marks or firing pin marks on the bullet, they are on the casing.  But those parts can be changed out as well.

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Just the title itself and the first picture gave me impression of what that article REALLY about. So not gonna read. 

No matter what we tell ourselves, registration exists and every gun can be traced but only to someone who followed law when purchasing. As always, career criminals who attend continued education sessions at their favorite jail got it covered under BG101 classes. 

All of this to satisfy the crowd that tell themselves that "anything is better than nothing" when it comes to gun laws. 

When it comes to forensics, there is typically lot of information available at the scene and through subsequent process. Often the problem isnt about knowing but proving beyond reasonable doubt. Sometimes you can do that without any knowledge of the weapon and sometime you cant even if you have the weapon right in front of the jury. 

Real professionals know how to work the system, but 99% cases doesn't involve real professionals, for they are good at employing far better solutions than using a registered GUNZ. 

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... No matter what we tell ourselves, registration exists and every gun can be traced but only to someone who followed law when purchasing. ...

 

Ruger makes a gun and transfers it to Davidsons. Dealer gets it and sells it to Joe Blow. Joe sells it to Jane Doe. Joe keeps no record of the sale. Trace Chain is broken.

 

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2 minutes ago, PK90 said:

 

 

 

 

 

Ruger makes a gun and transfers it to Davidsons. Dealer gets it and sells it to Joe Blow. Joe sells it to Jane Doe. Joe keeps no record of the sale. Trace Chain is broken.

 

Unless its NJ Joe who makes million copies of the sale and uploads scanned copies to "cloud", just in case :-). But yes, I agree with the chain breaking otherwise. 

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