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Zeke

Suggest forend grip?

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Sorry John - I loathe the grip pod. I wouldn't take one if it was free. If I want a bipod, I'll get a bipod.

After much time behind a gun I have learned that I much prefer handstops to vert grips. I started with full size vertical grips like the Tangodown that I grabbed full-retard (like a broomstick).

7y7Upta.jpg

I found my accuracy diminished as I tended to torque the grip and roll the rifle a few degrees inboard. My wrist and arm got tired faster as the hand position was uncomfortable for long periods. As I got tired, my elbows started creeping up into a chicken wing, which is less stable than a tight elbow down stance and also affected accuracy. Finally, the grip was a snag hazard on my gear and the environment.

Then I moved to the TD Stubby on 1913 rails and the Magpul VFG for direct connect to MOE Hand guards as I learned a thing or two and progressed to a thumbs forward/thumb break grip.

BK2CWwm.jpg

This was a much better choice and I didn't need a the full length of the grip anymore. The shorter grip hung up on stuff less and the new hand position was much more comfortable and didn't cause me to torque the rifle as much or chicken wing giving me better hits for a longer amount of time.

As I shot more and more I found myself going to more of a C-Clamp. No, not the Chris Costa hyper extended elbow crap - just a normal comfortable arm extension with some bend in my elbow and my thumb over the top of the rail. It was less fatiguing when spending long amounts of time holding the gun at a ready position instead of shooting and still kept my hand in a position to work my light, drive the gun faster, and control the muzzle.

This led me to want a handguard that was as slim as possible and a vertical grip was contraindicated. I tried a few thicker triangular shaped hand stops - like the Magpul AFG. They just wouldn't do either as it made me open my hand up too much and cause me too lose some grip strength. I wanted just a slight bump out in the back so I had something to pull against with the heel of my hand and as little material as along the tube under my hand so I could get my thumb over the top without opening my hand so much. I finally settled on the below:

If it was MLOK, the Magpul MLOK Handstop is my answer.

For 1913 rails I prefer the LaRue Hand stop. I also like and and have used the Magpul XTM Handstop kit.

For the Key Mod I am looking at either the BCM KAG or the Strike Industries Link Curved Foregrip. I am not 100% yet but these seem to be the best options I have found so far that are KM compatible and have the attributes I am looking for. I am still looking at KM options (I prefer MLOK but the LaRue deal came with Keymod) so this may change. If they made the Magpul Handstop in Keymod, I would be all over it.

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I only have have basic rails but I use the magpul vfg.

 

79ea3786a5cca7703ffb5cc0d2d861b5.jpg

 

I keep my 4 fingers to pull the rifle in and my thumb rests on the light mount to operate the flashlight. Very comfortable and natural for me.

 

On my spr I didn't want a grip to protrude out from my handguard so I went with the afg. Seems to work well in that role.

 

 

 

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Sorry John - I loathe the grip pod. I wouldn't take one if it was free. If I want a bipod, I'll get a bipod. After much time behind a gun I have learned that I much prefer handstops to vert grips. I started with full size vertical grips like the Tangodown that I grabbed full-retard (like a broomstick).

7y7Upta.jpg

I found my accuracy diminished as I tended to torque the grip and roll the rifle a few degrees inboard. My wrist and arm got tired faster as the hand position was uncomfortable for long periods. As I got tired, my elbows started creeping up into a chicken wing, which is less stable than a tight elbow down stance and also affected accuracy. Finally, the grip was a snag hazard on my gear and the environment.

Then I moved to the TD Stubby on 1913 rails and the Magpul VFG for direct connect to MOE Hand guards as I learned a thing or two and progressed to a thumbs forward/thumb break grip.

BK2CWwm.jpg

This was a much better choice and I didn't need a the full length of the grip anymore. The shorter grip hung up on stuff less and the new hand position was much more comfortable and didn't cause me to torque the rifle as much or chicken wing giving me better hits for a longer amount of time.

As I shot more and more I found myself going to more of a C-Clamp. No, not the Chris Costa hyper extended elbow crap - just a normal comfortable arm extension with some bend in my elbow and my thumb over the top of the rail. It was less fatiguing when spending long amounts of time holding the gun at a ready position instead of shooting and still kept my hand in a position to work my light, drive the gun faster, and control the muzzle.

This led me to want a handguard that was as slim as possible and a vertical grip was contraindicated. I tried a few thicker triangular shaped hand stops - like the Magpul AFG. They just wouldn't do either as it made me open my hand up too much and cause me too lose some grip strength. I wanted just a slight bump out in the back so I had something to pull against with the heel of my hand and as little material as along the tube under my hand so I could get my thumb over the top without opening my hand so much. I finally settled on the below:

If it was MLOK, the Magpul MLOK Handstop is my answer.

For 1913 rails I prefer the LaRue Hand stop. I also like and and have used the Magpul XTM Handstop kit.

For the Key Mod I am looking at either the BCM KAG or the Strike Industries Link Curved Foregrip. I am not 100% yet but these seem to be the best options I have found so far that are KM compatible and have the attributes I am looking for. I am still looking at KM options (I prefer MLOK but the LaRue deal came with Keymod) so this may change. If they made the Magpul Handstop in Keymod, I would be all over it.

 

 

It's not that bad, geeze. Lets face it. Just blame it all on your little girly Dutch hands. Not everyone has girly hands.

 

And yes, got one for free surplus, courtesy the Marines... [emoji6]

 

PS: I use mostly AFG and recently really love the, (doh!, forgot the name cause I'm half asleep), on my X95... Really comfy, has a compartment and taste like chicken wings...

[emoji23]

 

d7b237e470fe403cfdc4cf5cc8f95028.jpg

 

 Editeditited: Tactical Fab Defense

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

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John, you don't need a riser on your x95 with that aimpoint?  my god the cheek weld is uncomfortable on the stock tavor rail height.  can't see shit...  I put on a 1/2" riser and now I have a 4" height over bore... not sure what's worse

I'd put an AFG on my tavor but it doesn't fit =(

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John, you don't need a riser on your x95 with that aimpoint?  my god the cheek weld is uncomfortable on the stock tavor rail height.  can't see shit...  I put on a 1/2" riser and now I have a 4" height over bore... not sure what's worse I'd put an AFG on my tavor but it doesn't fit =( 

 

Nope, works fine with my fat head. Cowitnessed, etc. plus nicer with the new butt pad. Very comfy.Why won't it fit?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

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Use the magwell as a grip. 
Having a fore grip closer to the end of the barrel generally feels much more comfortable, controls the muzzle during fire and helps limit overtravel when moving from target to target, for me anyway.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

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2 hours ago, checko said:

Having a fore grip closer to the end of the barrel generally feels much more comfortable, controls the muzzle during fire and helps limit overtravel when moving from target to target, for me anyway.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
 

Not just for you you buddy. For everyone.

It's SCIENCE! ;)

Holding the magwell definitely takes less energy than getting your support arm way out there, but the magwell is the center of balance of the gun. The closer you hold to the center of balance, the more wobble you get on the muzzle and the more energy it takes to stop the muzzle where you want it when driving the gun. In practical, terms this makes you slower and more apt to miss your target.

The closer your support hand is to the muzzle, the more control you have on starting and stopping movement and the steadier you can hold the rifle.

Caveat! There is a point of diminishing returns where the stretch you have to make to reach further is uncomfortable or unreasonable based on the kit you may or may not be wearing, arm length, barrel and handguard length, rifle accessories (light, laser, grip, etc..), and level of fatigue, but it's definitely further than the magwell.

I have found grabbing the forearm between 1/2 and 2/3 out (still keeping a slight bend in the support elbow) is the best compromise between solid shooting, endurance, and comfort on a rifle that has the proper length of pull for your situation.

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I have the AFG2 on my AR and SUB-2000. Have the regular Magpul vertical grip on my KSG. Very happy with both.

I have an unknown name one on my CX4, which has a pressure pad attached. It works.

I also have a GripPod on my FDE AR. But don't recommend that unless you are looking for a bipod. Too big and heavy for just a vertical grip.

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8 hours ago, checko said:

Having a fore grip closer to the end of the barrel generally feels much more comfortable, controls the muzzle during fire and helps limit overtravel when moving from target to target, for me anyway.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
 

It feels more natural and comfortable for me to grab the magwell. I also find I am more accurate and have better control of the rifle this way.  And while not a practical reason, reaching further out on the barrel/handguard makes you a larger target.

Another thing to mention is, I have M4 style rifles with government profile barrels, carbine length handguards, and carbine length gas systems, with no attachments hanging off them, Therefor, the front end of my rifles are very lightweight. I did buy a Ruger SR556 with the piston system, which had the gas block way out near the muzzle and a long heavy handguard. The rifle felt very front heavy and awkward to me. I was much slower with it moving from target to target. I sold it as fast as I bought it. So, it does make a difference on your particular setup.

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It feels more natural and comfortable for me to grab the magwell. I also find I am more accurate and have better control of the rifle this way.  And while not a practical reason, reaching further out on the barrel/handguard makes you a larger target.
Another thing to mention is, I have M4 style rifles with government profile barrels, carbine length handguards, and carbine length gas systems, with no attachments hanging off them, Therefor, the front end of my rifles are very lightweight. I did buy a Ruger SR556 with the piston system, which had the gas block way out near the muzzle and a long heavy handguard. The rifle felt very front heavy and awkward to me. I was much slower with it moving from target to target. I sold it as fast as I bought it. So, it does make a difference on your particular setup.
Comfortable is a subjective term so I can't speak to that but I still doubt it gives you more control than a thumbs forward or c clamp grip. I don't see how you are any larger of a target placing your hand a few inches forward. Even if that's true it's negligible at best.

As for your set up, I assume you are talking about a 16" govt barrel while the one pictures above is a 14.5 lightweight barrel which saves me about 6oz. Add the light and a couple inches of plastic and it's a similar weight and bit shorter.

Either way it's still a more stable shooting platform when you move your support hand (reasonably) closer to the muzzle

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Why not just say its sometimes different for a variety of people. You won't know till you try. Closest thing you can do is hold the rifle the way you would if the different grips are there. Balance the upper on the ball of your weak side fist, grab magwell, grab fore end, etc. Where do you feel natural or beneficial?
Try someone else's or just dump a few bux and buy some. Its not like they are real expensive.

Reason I say everyone can be different because not everyone is built the same. You might have lil dutch girl hands. Or knuckle draggers like mine. The back of my hand faces forward when my arms are at my side. I can't accept pocket change from you without disjointing my wrist. It limits the way I hold things. (Yes, even that before you ask.[emoji23])

So IMHO, take what you've learned here and experiment. There is no perfect answer.



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14 hours ago, stuckinNJ said:

I use the Strike Industries LINK angled foregrip on my AR and love it.

 

https://www.strikeindustries.com/shop/index.php/products/rifle-accessories/ar/fore-grips/si-link-curved-foregrip.html

 

Tear up your hands? I have a side gig as a hand model; these digits are perfection...

jus asken

im between this and kag 

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3 hours ago, Zeke said:

Tear up your hands? I have a side gig as a hand model; these digits are perfection...

jus asken

im between this and kag 

Lol, no not at all. It's a fantastic afg in my opinion and quite popular on other forums especially the Reddit r/ar15 page. I highly recommend it!

ive attached a pic of mine:

image1.JPG

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i like strike industries, just keep in mind their stuff is made in china if that matters to you. 

i have the bcm kag gunfighter and it's fantastic. also have a magpul afg-2 and it's really nice as well. massive pita to install for some reason, but that could have been user error...

i find myself preferring angled foregrips to vertical grips, not sure why. foregrips just seem more natural to me for my shooting style. 

for bipod i have the following:

http://www.larue.com/atlas-bipod-bt46-nc-and-lt271-qd-mount-combo

expensive, yeah, but i'm big into modularity and with the one bipod i can share it for all rifles using the quick detach. just put a 3 slot piece of rail at the end of every rifle's handguard

 

 

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On 9/10/2017 at 6:22 AM, diamondd817 said:

I also find I am more accurate and have better control of the rifle this way. 

I suggest a simple experiment you may want to conduct. Obtain a broom stick or something equivalent, about 4-5 long to exaggerate the physics a bit.Shoulder it, place your two hands on it in various locations, while trying to turn on and off a light switch with the far end (or a similarly small item, like a screw or something). You will quickly notice that the further forward your support hand is touching the stick the easier it is to touch the target.  The closer to the muzzle end that you can hold a rifle the better control you are going to have, assuming you are not overextending your support arm or locking your elbow.

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18 hours ago, bhunted said:

Why not just say its sometimes different for a variety of people. You won't know till you try. Closest thing you can do is hold the rifle the way you would if the different grips are there. Balance the upper on the ball of your weak side fist, grab magwell, grab fore end, etc. Where do you feel natural or beneficial?
Try someone else's or just dump a few bux and buy some. Its not like they are real expensive.

Reason I say everyone can be different because not everyone is built the same. You might have lil dutch girl hands. Or knuckle draggers like mine. The back of my hand faces forward when my arms are at my side. I can't accept pocket change from you without disjointing my wrist. It limits the way I hold things. (Yes, even that before you ask.emoji23.png)

So IMHO, take what you've learned here and experiment. There is no perfect answer.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Unfortunately, the "everyone is different so do what feels good to you" doesn't always work if you are trying to improve. Of course injuries or other body differences may indicate something different needs to be taken into consideration, but that is generally the exception, not the norm.

There are some things that just are. Math is math and science is science. The physics are there, provable, and repeatable. The further apart your hands are on the rifle, the more control you have and the more stable you are. That's a fact.  Just because a magwell hold is more comfortable to you doesn't change the fact that it's less effective. No one is saying you have to change it, just know there is a better way.

If everyone just did what "feels good to them" then why are there instructors that teach you things and make corrections. If what feels good or right works the best then everyone would be an awesome shooter, or golfer, or climber, or surfer because we naturally do what feels right to us.

Like it or not, some ways to do things - even ways that may seem alien - are better than others, even if they are uncomfortable or weird at first blush.

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4 hours ago, High Exposure said:

Unfortunately, the "everyone is different so do what feels good to you" doesn't always work if you are trying to improve. Of course injuries or other body differences may indicate something different needs to be taken into consideration, but that is generally the exception, not the norm.

There are some things that just are. Math is math and science is science. The physics are there, provable, and repeatable. The further apart your hands are on the rifle, the more control you have and the more stable you are. That's a fact.  Just because a magwell hold is more comfortable to you doesn't change the fact that it's less effective. No one is saying you have to change it, just know there is a better way.

If everyone just did what "feels good to them" then why are there instructors that teach you things and make corrections. If what feels good or right works the best then everyone would be an awesome shooter, or golfer, or climber, or surfer because we naturally do what feels right to us.

Like it or not, some ways to do things - even ways that may seem alien - are better than others, even if they are uncomfortable or weird at first blush.

Like Yeager?

i kid, I kid

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