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Kaiser7

Aiming the M1 Garand, 6'oclock, or hold center?

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So while doing some research on how to sight my M1 for different ranges, I just realized that maybe some of my accuracy issues are due to aiming center mass, and not holding 6 o'clock. The garand has become one of my favorite milsurps to shoot, but it is very different from the mausers and other rifles I'm used to. For instance, I assumed the numbers on the drum represented hundreds of yards,(2 would be 200yds, 3 300yds, etc). I assumed this since most European military rifles have sights that correspond to distance.

Anyway, the other day I was practicing at 200yds, and wasn't having any luck hitting steel. With my AR I was hitting my 10" target pretty easily, but only managed 1 hit out of 24 shots from the Garand. I believe that this is due to me misunderstanding how to use Garand sights. I was aiming center mass. I was able to get on paper, though low and to the right, I later adjusted and tightened up the group, but I'm considering this a fluke.

What I'd like to know is if I should be holding a 6 o'clock hold when aiming the garand. Furthermore, if the elevation clicks work as 1 click is 1" at 100yds, 2" at 200yds, etc. then I'm assuming that if I'm, say 3" low at 200yds, that there's no way to really adjust the rifle perfectly. (Which, in reality would make sense since it's a military rifle, and you just need to hit an enemy, not a bullseye).

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32 minutes ago, Nickjc said:

Have you gotten - Your mechanical zero yet?

Ps - and adjusted ur drums?

I haven't. I've only recently really begun to understand sight adjustments, and things like that. It sounds silly, but since I came from a no-gun household, I've had to teach myself everything. I started with just proper form and technique, which I've gotten pretty good at, and since I did my first competition, I learned how to adjust the scope on my .22. I never realized how different the M1 garand is compared to other rifles I'm more familiar with (Enfields, Mausers, my AR, and Mosins), which just have preset settings for different ranges.

I could ask the guy I bought it off of what it was set for, and see if he remembers what the mechanical zero was.

 

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You decide if its 6 o'clock or point of impact as others have said.  IMO 6 o'clock is better for target (competition) shooting and POI is better for combat shooting.  Just my preference, YMMV.

If you want the sight drum to agree with your zero, zero at any known distance, say 200 yds, with M2 Ball. Use either POI or 6 o'clock.  Dont pay attention to what the sight drum says while you're doing this.  M1 sights are calibrated to move POI 1" at 100 yds.   Once you have that 200 yd zero, rotate the sight drum down and count the clicks. This is insurance so you know where you're supposed to be at 200 yds.

Once you've done this, elevate the sight to your 200 yd zero.  Now loosen the screw in the center of the sight drum so it rotates freely and set it at 200 yd.  Tighten it back down and lower the sight to ensure you are at the same number of clicks you counted before.  If its the same number of clicks, rotate drum the same number of clicks up and the sight drum should say 200 yds.

This is the mechanical zero Nickjc is talking about.

If you are low and to the right and on paper at 200 yds you can start from there.  You need to make a windage adjustment to the left.  Same as elevation, 1" per click.

If you zero for 6 o'clock on an 8" bullseye,  4 clicks down should give you POI. If you zero for POI, 4 clicks up will give you a 6 o'clock.

Most use a 3 rd group to zero. Some use an 8 rd group with a M1. I use a 4 rd group.  As the barrel heats up, groups may drift. As the range increases groups may drift to the left or right depending on the direction of the twist.  I'm talking maybe 5-600 yds or more for that.  I don"t generally shoot that far but have had to make those corrections for artillery.

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I've been going through basically the same thing with my new M1A.  My understanding though is because my elevation dial goes to 11, its markings are in meters (if it goes to 12 it's in yards).

What I have found through my research (and I hope I am right here, please correct me if wrong) is that the bullet should strike 4.6 cm above POA at 25 meters for it to strike POA at 250 meters. This can be used to get you on paper at 25 meters for a 250 meter zero.  Apparently this also works out to be striking POA at 25 yards is equal to POA at 200 meters (yes mixed measure), so I intend to set my 200 meter zero (because that's what's on my dial) using a 25 yard target.

Make sense?

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, tomk62 said:

I've been going through basically the same thing with my new M1A.  My understanding though is because my elevation dial goes to 11, its markings are in meters (if it goes to 12 it's in yards).

What I have found through my research (and I hope I am right here, please correct me if wrong) is that the bullet should strike 4.6 cm above POA at 25 meters for it to strike POA at 250 meters. This can be used to get you on paper at 25 meters for a 250 meter zero.  Apparently this also works out to be striking POA at 25 yards is equal to POA at 200 meters (yes mixed measure), so I intend to set my 200 meter zero (because that's what's on my dial) using a 25 yard target.

Make sense?

 

 

 

M14 and M1A are calibrated in meters.  Everything the Army has done since at least the 60s (to my knowledge) is metric.  I've been told by people who seem to know, AFAIC, you can swap rear sights between the M1 (calibrated in yards) and a M14/M1A (calibrated in meters).  I know a guy who shoots Service Rifle and has an M1 sight on his M1A because those matches are shot in yards.

Your calculations for zeroing seem to make sense.  I can't really say everything is correct without knowing what load you're using.  However remember at ranges under say 300 yds or meters the point of impact isn't much different if you're mixing yards and meters. Well within usefulness for serious social situations but you want to be more accurate in target competition.  A meter is about 10% longer than a yard.  25 meters is about 27.5 yds.  Not much difference.  Standard military sights move the impact about 1" at 100.  So at 25 that's 1/4".  The ballistics of 7.62 NATO and M2 Ball are just about the same.

The important thing is once you do a 25 yd or meter zero for 200 yds or meters is to confirm it at the longer range.  I've seen too many people zero their rifle at a 25 yd indoor range and think everything is good.

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Thanks Griz.  My 200 meter zero (established at 25 yards) ended up being 16 clicks up from the bottom, does that sound reasonable?  I wasn't expecting to go that far, maybe 8 clicks from what I have been finding online ... (I do realize that I sitll need to get out on a 200 yard range to complete the zeroing).

 

 

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33 minutes ago, tomk62 said:

Thanks Griz.  My 200 meter zero (established at 25 yards) ended up being 16 clicks up from the bottom, does that sound reasonable?  I wasn't expecting to go that far, maybe 8 clicks from what I have been finding online ... (I do realize that I sitll need to get out on a 200 yard range to complete the zeroing).

 

 

As long as the sights adjust to the zero you want it doesnt make a difference how many clicks you use.  I have a rife I bought used with the rear sight visibly off to the right.  There's enough adjustment to zero by adjusting the sight to the left.  I'm happy with it.

One other thing.  Sometimes you will find your group say a half inch to the right.  You dial in that click to the left.  Now you're a half inch to the left on that M1/M14/M1A/AR with normal (target sights have finer adjustments).  I leave the sights adjusted for that half inch strike to the left.  Most rifling is right handed and will cause the bullet to drift to the right at range.

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Keep in mind that drift to the right is at range.  It's usually not showing up at 200 yds or even longer.  The correction for drift is important if you're a 1000 yd target shooter,  uber top rated operator, or shooting artillery. 

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