A Russian Ghost Submarine, its U.S. Pursuers and a Deadly New Cold War

[Krdshrk 3,877]

8 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

One needs to understand the Russian/Soviet/Russian design philosophy to understand the Russian "fascination" with diesel/electric submarines.

High tech is important but many times numbers win.

 

 

The one with the rifle shoots.  The one without follows him.  When the one with the rifle gets killed, the one who is following picks up the rifle and shoots.

[GRIZ 3,369]

Just now, Krdshrk said:

The one with the rifle shoots.  The one without follows him.  When the one with the rifle gets killed, the one who is following picks up the rifle and shoots.

Same thing.

[High Exposure 5,664]

1 hour ago, GRIZ said:

One needs to understand the Russian/Soviet/Russian design philosophy to understand the Russian "fascination" with diesel/electric submarines.

Russian/Soviet  design philosophy haso always been "perfection is the enemy of good enough".  I've seen the quote attributed to Voltaire and a few others. That includes a Marshal of the Soviet Union.  It really doesn't matter who said it.  The concept is important.

How does it work?  Well during the Battle of Stalingrad (which lasted about a year and a half) there was a factory that cranked out T34 tanks. They were not superior to German tanks in most respects.  They got to the point they didn't even paint them as they rolled off the assembly line.  They wouldn't last long enough in combat to rust.  Throwing a number of tanks against the Germans they won.

We adopted the same philosophy in WW2 to an extent.  When we first encountered Tiger tanks it wasn't unusual for a platoon (4-5 tanks) of Tigers to take out a company (15 tanks) of M4 Shermans with no casualties.  Once we learned how to engage the Tigers they started to lose. We could lose 5 or 6 Shermans to kill one Tiger. We could produce 10-15 M4s for each Tiger.  We would win.

Jump to the 80s. The Fulda Gap.  The place the Soviets were expected to pour through. Yeah, the Soviets outnumbered us and more importantly outnumbered us in artillery.  The biggest killer on the battlefield since the Napoleantic wars. We were mostly using self propelled artillery.  More mobile which increased the survivabilty.  The Warsaw Pact had SPs but had a lot more towed artillery. Reason?  Much cheaper.  They could have several towed artillery pieces for the cost of one SP.

This philosophy goes for diesel electric submarines.  One can build 4 or 5 diesel electric for the cost of one nuclear sub.  Yes your enemy will kill 2 or 3 but you'll still have survivors.

High tech is important but many times numbers win.

“Quantity has quality all its own”

-Stalin

This has been the Russian strategic philosophy since before WWII.

[Displaced Texan 11,737]

Quanity has a quality of its own. 

 

HE beat me to the punch. 

[JT Custom Guns 957]

Run Silent - Run Deep.....................

[voyager9 3,434]

Certainly quantity has a quality all its own. 

Still, that’s an oversimplified view when comparing an SSN vs SSK. Both serves different roles that’s align with a countries overall strategy. 

[Smokin .50 1,907]

"Good hitting will stop good pitching!"

Navy Ships' CIWS was designed for multiple bogies (missiles) but there comes a point when several will get thru, and Hollyweird already had a movie scene for it in "The Sum of All Fears" when one of our carriers was struck by 2 missiles fired from an entire Air Group of Russian Migs flying just a few feet off the deck.  Hard for a radar lock.  

The more technology changes & advances, the more things revert to "Old School".

[High Exposure 5,664]

CIWS is being phased out in favor of the RAM and SeaRAM missle systems.

They are fire and forget systems allowing them to engage more targets at once and destroy them at greater stand-off distances.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

13 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

CIWS is being phased out in favor of the RAM and SeaRAM missle systems.

They are fire and forget systems allowing them to engage more targets at once and destroy them at greater stand-off distances.

I guess it takes us black powder guys a little bit to "catch-up", lol.  Forgive my ignorance as I quick hit Wikipedia for a "recaluculation".  Fire & forget with multiple bogies is exceedingly useful.  The Rules of Engagement will have to be clarified with the newer technology being employed at greater distances to our "capital ships".

[voyager9 3,434]

3 hours ago, High Exposure said:

CIWS is being phased out in favor of the RAM and SeaRAM missle systems.

They are fire and forget systems allowing them to engage more targets at once and destroy them at greater stand-off distances.

Technically CIWS is a generic term for Close In weapon system that includes the Phallanx gun system as well as RAMs, SeaRam and ESSM missiles.  Originally they were trying to phase out PWS for missile-based systems. After the Cole they decided a gun could be very useful for Surface engagements.  Current destroyers have both PWS and ESSM and rumor has it they’ll add RAMs where fwd PWS used to be.  Large Decks have PWS and SeaRam already..

Defense in depth. More layers, more options. 

[voyager9 3,434]

2 hours ago, Smokin .50 said:

I guess it takes us black powder guys a little bit to "catch-up", lol.  Forgive my ignorance as I quick hit Wikipedia for a "recaluculation".  Fire & forget with multiple bogies is exceedingly useful.  The Rules of Engagement will have to be clarified with the newer technology being employed at greater distances to our "capital ships".

It’s always about trade offs. Fire and forget with limited ordinance (<50) versus linear engagement but more rounds (>thousands). 

[Zeke 5,504]

Voyager is a swimmer

[voyager9 3,434]

28 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Voyager is a swimmer

Of 59,000 swimmers, I was the fastest

[Zeke 5,504]

40 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

Of 59,000 swimmers, I was the fastest

That’s a good story 

[Displaced Texan 11,737]

We just launched USS South Dakota, newest of the Virginia class attack boats:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/26/politics/navy-uss-south-dakota-submarine-china-russia/index.html

[High Exposure 5,664]

1 hour ago, Displaced Texan said:

We just launched USS South Dakota, newest of the Virginia class attack boats:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/26/politics/navy-uss-south-dakota-submarine-china-russia/index.html

This makes my heart soar like an eagle!

America!!!

[Displaced Texan 11,737]

Nothing gets my blood pumping like hearing ‘DIVE, DIVE!!’ , followed by the klaxon. Even when I hear it on a movie, still raises the hairs on the back of my neck, and I get excited!

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

2 hours ago, Displaced Texan said:

We just launched USS South Dakota, newest of the Virginia class attack boats:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/26/politics/navy-uss-south-dakota-submarine-china-russia/index.html

I was glad to read this... thanks for sharing. Frankly, the original article was a bit concerning. This is a tad more optimistic that the U.S. is still maintaining technological dominance in this area.

7 minutes ago, Displaced Texan said:

Nothing gets my blood pumping like hearing ‘DIVE, DIVE!!’ , followed by the klaxon. Even when I hear it on a movie, still raises the hairs on the back of my neck, and I get excited!

Adrenaline junkie! 

[Krdshrk 3,877]

1 hour ago, Displaced Texan said:

Nothing gets my blood pumping like hearing ‘DIVE, DIVE!!’ , followed by the klaxon. Even when I hear it on a movie, still raises the hairs on the back of my neck, and I get excited!

I was on the USS Massachusetts (battleship cove) back when I was in Boy Scouts (about 20 yrs ago).  The USS Lionfish is a sub at the museum too and has the dive horn still hooked up.  It was behind a plexiglass panel but had a cutout so people could pull it...  So we did...... for a LONG time..... 

[GRIZ 3,369]

54 minutes ago, Krdshrk said:

I was on the USS Massachusetts (battleship cove) back when I was in Boy Scouts (about 20 yrs ago).  The USS Lionfish is a sub at the museum too and has the dive horn still hooked up.  It was behind a plexiglass panel but had a cutout so people could pull it...  So we did...... for a LONG time..... 

They have a sleepover program in Baltimore.  You can sleep over on the Constellation (last sail only US Navy warship),  the Taney (USCG Cutter that was at Pearl Harbor), or the Torsk (WW2 submarine).

[Krdshrk 3,877]

1 minute ago, GRIZ said:

They have a sleepover program in Baltimore.  You can sleep over on the Constellation (last sail only US Navy warship),  the Taney (USCG Cutter that was at Pearl Harbor), or the Torsk (WW2 submarine).

Same thing at Battleship Cove in Massachusetts - Sleep over in the USS Massachusetts.  Unfortunately I think it's just on the Massachusetts, not on any other ship.

[voyager9 3,434]

6 hours ago, Displaced Texan said:

Nothing gets my blood pumping like hearing ‘DIVE, DIVE!!’ , followed by the klaxon. Even when I hear it on a movie, still raises the hairs on the back of my neck, and I get excited!

I don’t care what goes on in your bedroom with the lights out..

4 hours ago, Krdshrk said:

Same thing at Battleship Cove in Massachusetts - Sleep over in the USS Massachusetts.  Unfortunately I think it's just on the Massachusetts, not on any other ship.

USS New Jersey has something similar too

[voyager9 3,434]

6 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

I was glad to read this... thanks for sharing. Frankly, the original article was a bit concerning. This is a tad more optimistic that the U.S. is still maintaining technological dominance in this area.

Adrenaline junkie! 

The US is definitely maintaining its technological edge. In fact other than BMD it is probobly the second highest priority for the USN.  But it’s a huge area and we are behind in several areas... litorals and SSk’s for example. 

The SSBN conversion to SSGN is a great example. 120+ TLAM’s in a launch platform you don’t see coming.  And when LRASM is operational and VLS qualified.. oh boy. 

I need to break out my old copy of Harpoon. 

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

5 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

The US is definitely maintaining its technological edge. In fact other than BMD it is probobly the second highest priority for the USN.  But it’s a huge area and we are behind in several areas... litorals and SSk’s for example. 

The SSBN conversion to SSGN is a great example. 120+ TLAM’s in a launch platform you don’t see coming.  And when LRASM is operational and VLS qualified.. oh boy. 

I need to break out my old copy of Harpoon. 

Sheesh! You people and your acronyms... I'm forever googling on NJGF. But the "gist" of that sounds comforting. 

[voyager9 3,434]

Sheesh! You people and your acronyms... I'm forever googling on NJGF. But the "gist" of that sounds comforting. [emoji3]

BMD- Ballistic Missile Defense
SSBN- nuclear powered Ballistic Missile sub
SSGN- nuclear powered guided missile sub

TLAM- Tomahawk Land Attack Missile
LRASM- Long Range AntiShip Missile
VLS-vertical launch system


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