SargeC4

Combat Accuracy vs Target Shooting

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Target shooting can be used as training you for combat accuracy - but in reality they are world's apart.

Expect to see a 50-75% degradation in your skills under stress. This can be reduced by stress inoculation in training and experience with real violence.

Acceptable combat accuracy to me is to maintain the ability to:

With a handgun hit all rounds in a 4" diameter circle around my POA, on demand (which is different than on command), from 25 yards regardless of shooting position. Time constraints follow once I meet accuracy standards.

Same from a carbine at 100 yards.

My shooting will never win me a bullseye's competition - but that's not what I train for.

In the end there is no "Advanced Gunfighting". It's simply tighter accuracy under stricter time constraints - the basics done more efficiently.

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Target shooting can be used as training you for combat accuracy - but in reality they are world's apart.
Expect to see a 50-75% degradation in your skills under stress. This can be reduced by stress inoculation in training and experience with real violence.
Acceptable combat accuracy to me is to maintain the ability to:
With a handgun hit all rounds in a 4" diameter circle around my POA, on demand (which is different than on command), from 25 yards regardless of shooting position. Time constraints follow once I meet accuracy standards.
Same from a carbine at 100 yards.
My shooting will never win me a bullseye's competition - but that's not what I train for.
In the end there is no "Advanced Gunfighting". It's simply tighter accuracy under stricter time constraints - the basics done more efficiently.
dvA8Txx.jpg

Agreed 100%


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Your primary task is to deliver the rounds on target, quickly, accurately ,instinctively.

You want brain,eye, arm coordination . So start with arm and target stance.

Face the target with your weapon in hand at rest.Have someone blindfold you and command "shoot"

You want your eye on the target area and your arm to react and point in the same area.

You do not want to be sighting down the barrel, you want to place the round on target just using the pointing of your arm.Another way is to use a large sheet of cardboard to prevent you from seeing your arm and hand. Now shoot for the center mass target bowling pin

Try it, you will be surprised,

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32 minutes ago, Bt Doctur said:

Your primary task is to deliver the rounds on target, quickly, accurately ,instinctively.

You want brain,eye, arm coordination . So start with arm and target stance.

Face the target with your weapon in hand at rest.Have someone blindfold you and command "shoot"

You want your eye on the target area and your arm to react and point in the same area.

You do not want to be sighting down the barrel, you want to place the round on target just using the pointing of your arm.Another way is to use a large sheet of cardboard to prevent you from seeing your arm and hand. Now shoot for the center mass target bowling pin

Try it, you will be surprised,

Point shooting is an important combat shooting skill IMO.  You can be much more accurate if you can see your gun and using what Jim Cirillo called  "Gun Silhouette".

There comes a distance where you must use sights though.

I also am a believer in Wyatt Earp said, "Take your time...in a hurry".

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Target shooting means you squeeze the trigger when you have a clear sight picture.

Combat shooting means you press the trigger when you have an acceptable sight picture.

 

Of course, in some cases, sights are optional.

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6 minutes ago, RichP said:

Target shooting means you squeeze the trigger when you have a clear sight picture.

Combat shooting means you press the trigger when you have an acceptable sight picture.

 

Of course, in some cases, sights are optional.

Jeff Cooper didn't believe in point shooting.  He believed in a "flash sight picture" which is about what you're talking about.  I also agree with Cooper that if you're properly trained, when the time comes "the target will be large, the range short, and you'll have plenty of time".  

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1 hour ago, Bt Doctur said:

Your primary task is to deliver the rounds on target, quickly, accurately ,instinctively.

You want brain,eye, arm coordination . So start with arm and target stance.

Face the target with your weapon in hand at rest.Have someone blindfold you and command "shoot"

You want your eye on the target area and your arm to react and point in the same area.

You do not want to be sighting down the barrel, you want to place the round on target just using the pointing of your arm.Another way is to use a large sheet of cardboard to prevent you from seeing your arm and hand. Now shoot for the center mass target bowling pin

Try it, you will be surprised,

This is a parlor trick, not training for a gunfight - unless you are fighting a bowling pin that doesn't move while you also stand still.

Yes, there is absolutly an instinctive part to gunfighting, but it's isn't point shooting. It's instinctively evaluating your sight picture and determining if it is good enough to hit or not while being cognitively aware of your threat, your  backstop, the foreground, and everything else in between. The evaluation of your sights becomes instinct through training that breeds procedural memory. The situational awareness comes from being able to fight through stress.

Through training you should strive to reach the 4th level of achievement when running the gun - unconcious competence. Sight alignment, sight picture, reloads, manipulating the safety, malfunction clearing, admin functions and movement with muzzle awareness should be on autopilot freeing up what little ability you have to actually think under stress for the big decision - shoot or no-shoot, communicate, and environmental discrimination (discerning cover, concealment, and positions of advantage).

I have talked to many folks that have been in gunfights and I have been trained by some of the best gunfighters alive. They all say the same thing - if you don't use your sights you don't get hits. These are not guys that were involved in a single incident and survived. This is from men that make their living carrying guns and putting bad people on the ground. They all stress the same thing use your sights.

When shooting at another person, the only thing that tells you where your rounds are going is your sights. There is no berm, no neat black hole in a sheet of white paper. No ring of steel or bowling pin falling over. There is no spray of blood or chunks of meat flying. If you are lucky, your target will react - a flinch or wince, or maybe the targets shirt will puff out for an instant . If you are really lucky they will stagger or fall, but even those aren't definite indicators of even a peripheral hit, let alone a solid one. Maybe they tripped, maybe they are diving for cover.

The only way to know if you are getting hits is to note the position of your sights relative to your target when you break the shot. Evaluate your intervention and reapply force as appropriate and necessary.

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1 hour ago, Tony13 said:

What yardage would the target be set up at to practice combat shooting?

That's the key, there is no set range. To start, I would say that anything between touching distance out to around 25 yards would be good. Anything further, while it doesn't hurt to practice, would also mean that you should be thinking about other options rather than just shooting (handgun).

Now, if you are drilling the X on every shot at all of those distances, it doesn't mean that your a great shot; it means that your are shooting too slow.

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7 minutes ago, blksheep said:

Whats too slow?

Getting your hit second. ;) 

I think he’s referring to the relationship between speed vs accuracy.

5 shots in a 1” circle from 10 yards in 10 seconds is good, but in a gunfight 8 shots in a 6” circle in 5 seconds is better.

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I would think that most gun fights are 10 yards or less from some of the video I have seen.

Most do not even get the gun up to the sight plane,Point and Shoot most of the time.

The ones that have a spare second or two do get the weapon to the sight plane and shoot using the sights.

If I had 3 seconds or more to get a good aim, sure use the sights but most times it`s only a heartbeat away

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Anybody see the video of the Cop from Europe engaging a Perp while carrying his son in his weak hand?  Think you're GTG because you hit non-moving paper using BOTH hands?  Try using strong hand ONLY & see what you do under stress :) .  People make fun of USPSA & IDPA gun games.  If you've never heard a timer go off during YOUR run at action shooting, then you're just blowin' smoke up yer keister!

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If I had 3 seconds or more to get a good aim, sure use the sights but most times it`s only a heartbeat away

Well, the idea is that you don't have the luxury of knowing how much time you have. As a barely average shooter myself, from a ready position, I would say that at least 3 hits should be made in that 3 seconds.

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Starting form zero, you want to train accuracy first IMO. It's a lot easier to add speed to an accurate shooter than to teach someone how to be accurate while they are going full tilt. And you can suck pretty fast, so folks who worry about fast first tend to get out there before reigning it in and trying to become more accurate. 

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You should strike the word fast from your vocabulary when training. You want to be efficient.

Speed is a result of efficiency, not moving fast. Moving fast does nothing more than introduce inconsistencies.

Nothing should be fast. You want to decrease the time it takes to accomplish a task. To do so you need to be more efficient in processing your environment, more efficient in threat acquisition and discrimination, and more efficient in your movements, and your weapon manipulations. Remove unnecessary motion, get smooth.

Regardless of the saying, slow is just slow.

But, efficient is smooth and smooth is fast.

 

Raz-0, I agree, accuracy comes first - fundamentals have to be laid down.

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Coincidentally, I just today read these two discussions on the subject.  Hope you guys find them interesting and helpful.  

http://dryfiretrainingcards.com/blog/combat-accurate-training-doesnt-work-except/

http://dryfiretrainingcards.com/blog/slow-in-practice-fast-in-combat/

Basically, they say that we need to work on both speed and accuracy, but not necessarily at the same time.  And that we should start slowly, while striving for perfect form, and gradually increase speed.  

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On 12/11/2017 at 3:31 PM, High Exposure said:

You should strike the word fast from your vocabulary when training. You want to be efficient.

I've seen some top shooters be efficient awfully fast. 

Smooth and correct beats fast and shitty though. 

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On 12/10/2017 at 3:24 PM, High Exposure said:

Target shooting can be used as training you for combat accuracy - but in reality they are world's apart.

Expect to see a 50-75% degradation in your skills under stress. This can be reduced by stress inoculation in training and experience with real violence.

Acceptable combat accuracy to me is to maintain the ability to:

With a handgun hit all rounds in a 4" diameter circle around my POA, on demand (which is different than on command), from 25 yards regardless of shooting position. Time constraints follow once I meet accuracy standards.

Same from a carbine at 100 yards.

My shooting will never win me a bullseye's competition - but that's not what I train for.

In the end there is no "Advanced Gunfighting". It's simply tighter accuracy under stricter time constraints - the basics done more efficiently.

dvA8Txx.jpg

Then the whole gd army is out.  under stress and in a hot zone, you are NOT hitting these benchmarks unless you carry a certain lapel

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1 hour ago, raz-0 said:

I've seen some top shooters be efficient awfully fast. 

Smooth and correct beats fast and shitty though. 

Not under firefight duress.  Jerry mizuleck would look like 6th week recruit in boot camp under the stress of x39 and x54 rounds coming at him.

A hot area is an uncontrolled environment. Top shooters on YouTube don't shoot in that environment

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6 hours ago, High Exposure said:

That’s why it’s like 20,000 rounds per kill during the GWOT.

That's because if a platoon us going through an area in a free fire zone and you take some sniper fire from some buildings the entire platoon returns fire to surpress.  If it's the Army your FIST calls in artillery. A few rounds to adjust and then a battery 2.  Say 12 155 rounds.  There's a couple Apaches in the area so the FIST has them give you covering fire as you advance.  As you advance the platoon is still shooting.

When you get there you find:

1.  Body of the sniper.

2.  A blood trail.

3. Nothing because somehow it wasn't that sniper's day to die.

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