This Old House... is COLD!!

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

The mechanical systems in my 1860's Victorian are struggling in this awful weather. I'm typing this in a 66-degree sitting room. That's with the thermostat (which is in this room) set at 70 AND with one of those electric radiators also running in the room. Meanwhile, my upstairs rooms are sweltering hot. Mucho problemos!

I'm coming to NJGF's Bottomless Pit of Man Knowledge for suggestions! I know @Zeke and several others of you are either contractors or highly knowledgeable homeowners. I'm looking for quick, inexpensive "biggest bang for the buck" ideas. Forgive the wall of text, but I want to be thorough. FYI, I have what several folks have confirmed is an excellent oil-fired boiler that is appropriately sized for the house connected to hot water baseboard heaters. I'm pretty confident the boiler's not the issue. The house is almost 2000 sq feet, 2 levels, clapboard siding (had blown in insulation at one point), plaster interior walls, walk-up uninsulated attic, and creepy old basement with recently re-pointed stone foundation. My biggest problems are (I think) as follows:

• highly inefficient glass-paned French front doors. I can feel the icy air pouring in. (They're original & gorgeous; I won't replace them!) I've tried that thin foam weather stripping but it was hard to close the doors, it was peeling off - I ended up ripping it out in frustration. I do move my throw rug against the door once I come into the house to block drafts at the bottom.  My eventual solution will be adding nice air-tight storm doors (there are none now). But, until then, other suggestions? (Remember, don't hurt my feelings now... I love my gingerbread house!).  
• icy basement --- I had one contractor (who I initially thought was smart) talk me out of those insulating foam pipe noodles with the reasoning that it would increase issues with freezing pipes. But, I've been on the internet this week and I'm starting to think he was a complete moron and that I should "noodle the hell" out of all the hot water pipes in the basement. Agree? Disagree? Related to that.. how worthwhile (or frivolous) are those insulated hot water tank covers? 
• pipes prone to freezing - leading to upstairs bath and ground floor kitchen and going up through outside walls and an outside corner. How effective is heat tape if applied only at basement level? (normally, I drip the faucets - would that still be necessary?) I'm thinking I should heat tape what can be reached...cross my fingers and stop wasting the hot water dripping from the faucets...?
• 25 large windows (almost all single-paned) and not including basement windows and exterior glass doors. (NO! I will not replace the windows either). 4 have window A/C units that remain installed during the winter - the one on the main level - in the same room as thermostat - gets wrapped and insulated as snugly as I can from the inside. What else can I do?
• wood-burning stove in the wrong place. I rarely run it because it's not in the room with the thermostat, so all it does is float even more heat up my centrally located, open stairwell, while the boiler keeps chugging away... making the upstairs rooms even more unbearably hot. The stove's a total waste in my mind. I have really only used it as an emergency heat source when my (previous) boiler broke down or power was out. Ideas?
• Over-installed baseboard heat...  especially in the master bedroom, there's just too much of it. A different person suggested I could take tin snips and remove a very small section of the internal fins - wait a day or so while monitoring the temperature against the other upstairs rooms --- if still too hot, take another little section out --- until the temp matches the other rooms. He said that was a cheap, effective way to balance the system. Do you concur? 
• Other little drafts --- I've been checking switch plates, outlets --- yep, icy air coming through all of them. Are those little insulators that fit behind the plates worthwhile? or just gimmicky?

BTW, I've probably made it sound like a shack. It's not - it's actually a beautiful house - and everything is level, plumb, etc. It's just a little vulnerable in this weather like most homes of its era. OK, have at it! Give me your best ideas. I'm listening (while shivering)! 

[JohnnyB 4,325]

I had the same problem in my old home! I have baseboard hot water heat as well. I have replaced all windows in my house with double pane insulated glass though. My 2nd floor was always unbearably hot until I paid a guy $750 to install a 2nd thermostat on the 2nd floor and he split the system into 2 zones where the upstairs and downstairs were operated by valves for each zone controlled by separate thermostats.

I hope my experience gives you an idea of where to look for a possible answer to your problem. I can now control the heat downstairs without having the hot water going though the lines upstairs, making it too hot. When I go to bed, the heat comes on upstairs as needed without heating the 1st floor.  I have 2 "NEST" thermostats that control everything and learn my schedule. I never have to touch them!

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

22 minutes ago, JohnnyB said:

I had the same problem in my old home! I have baseboard hot water heat as well. I have replaced all windows in my house with double pane insulated glass though. My 2nd floor was always unbearably hot until I paid a guy $750 to install a 2nd thermostat on the 2nd floor and he split the system into 2 zones where the upstairs and downstairs were operated by valves for each zone controlled by separate thermostats.

I hope my experience gives you an idea of where to look for a possible answer to your problem.

What's the layout of your house though? Do you have a door that shuts off the upstairs? Or, like mine, are the 2 floors open to each other? (one side of my stairway has an open railing, so there's always air flowing upstairs). I mean, 750 isn't a lot of money if it's a solution.

I'm also wondering if relocating my downstairs thermostat might be a good idea. The thermostat is in my sitting room (the coldest room in the house; it has a sliding door, a window with a wrapped window A/C unit, and it's close to the drafty French doors). So, I'm thinking all that is making the thermostat kick the boiler on too frequently... contributing to overheating the upstairs. 

[45Doll 5,877]

Your house is losing heat as quickly as your systems are introducing it. In some areas maybe faster. In all probability your house has no insulation in the walls. Or the spaces above the uppermost ceilings? The drafts through your outlets are a big tip off. I'm afraid that other than simply overwhelming your house with heat (as it appears to be the case in your bedroom) the answer is to shut off all the outside air flows and insulate the place. From your description there's probably an imbalance in the heat delivery too. I have been through this in my previous house.

See if you can rent or borrow an infrared camera to look at all the exterior surfaces this winter to identify where the worst of the leaks are. Then start with them.

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

3 minutes ago, 45Doll said:

Your house is losing heat as quickly as your systems are introducing it. In some areas maybe faster. In all probability your house has no insulation in the walls. Or the spaces above the uppermost ceilings? The drafts through your outlets are a big tip off. I'm afraid that other than simply overwhelming your house with heat (as it appears to be the case in your bedroom) the answer is to shut off all the outside air flows and insulate the place. From your description there's probably an imbalance in the heat delivery too. I have been through this in my previous house.

See if you can rent or borrow an infrared camera to look at all the exterior surfaces this winter to identify where the worst of the leaks are. Then start with them.

It had blown in foam insulation - but my understanding is that type of insulation can settle over time, leaving pockets of open areas where there is NO insulation. Infrared camera... yikes, I wouldn't have thought of that. Interesting idea. Will at least help me see where the worst problems are. Thx! I'll do some research. I really have to get to the bottom of this. I'm throwing money away leaving it "as is".

[fapipa 3]

As a quick and temporary fix to the heat distribution problem, you could use portable fans to generate some air flow between the cold and hot areas of the house.

[cmarcell 6]

Confirm your boiler is working. If your set to 70 and it's never making temp
You are eating oil and beating your boiler up by having it run constantly or something is wrong with it.. What temp water is your boiler making? There is a gauge that will tell temp and psi. If you have a good system your house would have to be Swiss cheese for it not make temp ever.

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[1LtCAP 4,262]

keep it simple. the single biggest thing you can do is to go to home depot, and buy the window insulating kits. they're clear plastic. put them over the inside of your windows. those alone made a 25 gallon/month difference in my oil consumption before i had the woodstove.

 run the woodstove. put a fan next to it, to blow the air around. if you've got ceiling fans, run them. they'll force the heat spread throughout the home too.

[45Doll 5,877]

45 minutes ago, Mrs. Peel said:

It had blown in foam insulation - but my understanding is that type of insulation can settle over time, leaving pockets of open areas where there is NO insulation. Infrared camera... yikes, I wouldn't have thought of that. Interesting idea. Will at least help me see where the worst problems are. Thx! I'll do some research. I really have to get to the bottom of this. I'm throwing money away leaving it "as is".

If the 'foam' was the semi-liquid variety that expands and hardens then it would not have moved or settled. If it was the granular type then yes, it can settle. Either way, what is the 'proof' it was installed properly and thoroughly? Without an infrared study or some other measurement mechanism you can't be sure of what you can't see. (Of course in a new house solid foam can be inspected visually before the sheet rock goes up to insure it was done right.)

I read a study a while back that showed how a one square foot opening in static conditions in a large residence (say 3,000 square feet) would admit enough cold air to consume a HUGE amount (%) of heating capacity to offset (I don't remember the BTU equivalent). And that was without wind blowing.

Add up all the leaking outlets etc. in a house, and it's easy to see how a house has at least one square foot of leakage.

BTW, I'm certainly not ignoring your heating plants. Make sure they're tuned and efficient of course, as previously suggested.

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

I think it's definitely a "swiss cheese" situation - I've had the boiler checked. I've been told it's working perfectly. There's just too much heat leakage.

I'm going to spend the next couple of days insulating everything I can get my hands on --- hot water pipes in basement, outlets, switch plates, etc. I've watched YouTube videos - I'm armed with knowledge, LOL.

It seems so counterintuitive to use fans in freezing weather as some of you suggested... I wouldn't have thought of it. But yeah, maybe I can draw some heat out of the master bedroom into the hallway at least. I'll try that too! Mrs. Peel is COLD!

12 minutes ago, 1LtCAP said:

keep it simple. the single biggest thing you can do is to go to home depot, and buy the window insulating kits. they're clear plastic. put them over the inside of your windows. those alone made a 25 gallon/month difference in my oil consumption before i had the woodstove. 

Are the kits REALLY clear - or do they obscure your vision a bit? At minimum, I suppose I can try them in the least-used windows - the ones I never look out (guest bedroom, etc).

[Scorpio64 5,153]

66 degrees in the sitting room on a day when the outside air temp is 15 degrees would have been considered sweltering in 1840.   Viva la Victorian lifestyle.

I lived in a colonial era carriage house for a few years.  I can say nobody was at risk of CO poisoning from the fireplace.  There were five enormous 12 pane windows in the main room and each window had one pane on hinges (vents) that opened up like a door.  Every year we had to put up that clear plastic you shrink with a hair dryer.  It helped a lot.  You can see how well it works on a breezy day as the plastic flumps when it stops the cold air from infiltrating your house.

You may want to consider hiring a thermal photographer to "see" where the cold air is coming in.

EDIT:  Also, a humidifier helps.  Moist air carries/holds heat much better.

 

[cmarcell 6]

I'm not doubting you didn't have it checked. Things break. I also live in a house that is old (1871) and still mostly original, I have drafts to. Diagnosing a problem over the internet is hard but from your description it sound like something is not right with your heating. I could be wrong ,like I said I'm not there looking. If I were you I would check temp of your water. If your around 180 that's about normal. Go check your baseboard or radiators and feel them. are they hot or just like warm? Also what btu is boiler?
I'm a plumber by trade. I find it hard to believe you have a modern system that will not make temp cause of a drafty house. If your system is fine well like I said earlier ,it's Swiss cheese then.

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[1LtCAP 4,262]

21 minutes ago, Mrs. Peel said:

I think it's definitely a "swiss cheese" situation - I've had the boiler checked. I've been told it's working perfectly. There's just too much heat leakage.

I'm going to spend the next couple of days insulating everything I can get my hands on --- hot water pipes in basement, outlets, switch plates, etc. I've watched YouTube videos - I'm armed with knowledge, LOL.

It seems so counterintuitive to use fans in freezing weather as some of you suggested... I wouldn't have thought of it. But yeah, maybe I can draw some heat out of the master bedroom into the hallway at least. I'll try that too! Mrs. Peel is COLD!

Are the kits REALLY clear - or do they obscure your vision a bit? At minimum, I suppose I can try them in the least-used windows - the ones I never look out (guest bedroom, etc).

if put on right, you'd never see them from a distance. they do not obscure your vision out at all. they're very thin clear plastic. they're a pain in the butt to install because they're so thin. but they make a huge difference.

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

9 minutes ago, cmarcell said:

If I were you I would check temp of your water. If your around 180 that's about normal. Go check your baseboard or radiators and feel them. are they hot or just like warm? Also what btu is boiler?
I'm a plumber by trade. I find it hard to believe you have a modern system that will not make temp cause of a drafty house. If your system is fine well like I said earlier ,it's Swiss cheese then.

Weil McLean Gold Oil boiler - only a few years old! Temp reads 175, pipe coming away from the boiler is scaldingly hot, and baseboard heaters are pumping out hot air - I mean, not hot to the touch, but definitely more than "warm". I also checked the tag and saw my annual inspection/servicing was Jan 21 last year. I just re-upped my service contract, so I'm going to call my oil company now and see if they'll come early next week to clean it and also eyeball it just to make sure it's ok. But, I think the house is just swiss cheese, as you say! And I really do think the hot water in the pipes is probably cooling a bit as it travels across my very cold basement.

9 minutes ago, 1LtCAP said:

if put on right, you'd never see them from a distance. they do not obscure your vision out at all. they're very thin clear plastic. they're a pain in the butt to install because they're so thin. but they make a huge difference.

OK, I'm all over it! Will be playing Bob Vila this weekend. Thx for the tip.

[JohnnyB 4,325]

See if you can see the film! I use this every winter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41DBIn8wqz4

[cmarcell 6]

You said the upstairs is crazy hot? If the baseboard pipes are hotter up there than down stairs to touch then there might be an issue. I'm guessing single zone and thermostat on ground level? Check if there is a bad draft blowing towards the thermostat. When you buy insulation stuff you can start there. If you have a original fireplace make sure the flu is closed. Also if you by insulation for heating pipes make sure you buy right ones. Copper and steel different o.d.'s.

 

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[maintenanceguy 510]

Plastic film on your windows.   You're losing a lot of heat that way.

A temp fix for your hot upstairs and cold downstairs:  Stop letting your baseboards release so much heat upstairs and help them release more heat downstairs.  Insulate some of the upstairs baseboards. Throw a blanket over it, push a couch against it, stop air from flowing freely around them and you'll get less heat upstairs.

Now, you've got some extra heat that you can use downstairs.  Increase air flow around your downstairs baseboards.  Pull furniture a few inches away from the walls to let air flow.  Set up a couple of small floor fans blowing on the baseboards downstairs.  We also live in an old farm house.  When it gets in the teens, we slide the couch away from the living room wall and set up a small floor fan blowing behind the couch.  Huge difference.

Also do the touch test.  Make sure your downstairs baseboards are getting hot.   You may have a valve that's adjusted to push more heat upstairs.

[Zeke 5,504]

How many thermostat’s?

clear plastic and heavy window treatments closed.

 

[Zeke 5,504]

Also, those window mounts in place are not doing you any favors! That’s a lot of thermal mass conducting cold.

[silverado427 10,708]

Move To a new house in free America. 

[SmittyMHS 603]

 

10 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

@Zeke

highly inefficient glass-paned French front doors. I can feel the icy air pouring in. (They're original & gorgeous; I won't replace them!) I've tried that thin foam weather stripping but it was hard to close the doors, it was peeling off - I ended up ripping it out in frustration. I do move my throw rug against the door once I come into the house to block drafts at the bottom.  My eventual solution will be adding nice air-tight storm doors (there are none now). But, until then, other suggestions? (Remember, don't hurt my feelings now... I love my gingerbread house!).  Storm doors +++

• icy basement --- I had one contractor (who I initially thought was smart) talk me out of those insulating foam pipe noodles with the reasoning that it would increase issues with freezing pipes. But, I've been on the internet this week and I'm starting to think he was a complete moron and that I should "noodle the hell" out of all the hot water pipes in the basement. Agree? Disagree? Related to that.. how worthwhile (or frivolous) are those insulated hot water tank covers? Just how "icy" is it? Have you lost any pipes (freeze ups) down there? Noodle everything! hot & cold Remember hot water pipes will freeze faster then cold.
• pipes prone to freezing - leading to upstairs bath and ground floor kitchen and going up through outside walls and an outside corner. How effective is heat tape if applied only at basement level? (normally, I drip the faucets - would that still be necessary?) I'm thinking I should heat tape what can be reached...cross my fingers and stop wasting the hot water dripping from the faucets...? going up an outside wall heat tape will only keep the section taped from freezing. Keep dripping
• 25 large windows (almost all single-paned) and not including basement windows and exterior glass doors. (NO! I will not replace the windows either). 4 have window A/C units that remain installed during the winter - the one on the main level - in the same room as thermostat - gets wrapped and insulated as snugly as I can from the inside. What else can I do? You really should take the AC's out. But I understand why folks don't. Wrap all the windows with the film. Uninsulated windows cause cold down drafts
• wood-burning stove in the wrong place. I rarely run it because it's not in the room with the thermostat, so all it does is float even more heat up my centrally located, open stairwell, while the boiler keeps chugging away... making the upstairs rooms even more unbearably hot. The stove's a total waste in my mind. I have really only used it as an emergency heat source when my (previous) boiler broke down or power was out. Ideas? Is there anyway to block off the stairwell? Even hanging a light curtain at the top of the stairwell will help stop the hot air from over heating upstairs.
• Over-installed baseboard heat...  especially in the master bedroom, there's just too much of it. A different person suggested I could take tin snips and remove a very small section of the internal fins - wait a day or so while monitoring the temperature against the other upstairs rooms --- if still too hot, take another little section out --- until the temp matches the other rooms. He said that was a cheap, effective way to balance the system. Do you concur?  don't cut off the fins. You can't go backwards. BB needs air flow to work. Cut off that flow and it stops working. Cover them up with almost anything to stop the air from moving over the fins. Even wrapping them in aluminum foil will stop the heat transfer alot.
• Other little drafts --- I've been checking switch plates, outlets --- yep, icy air coming through all of them. Are those little insulators that fit behind the plates worthwhile? or just gimmicky? Can't hurt.
• get yourself one of these and have fun chasing down cold spots. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ultra-Performance-Non-Contact-Infrared-Thermometer-39102/300227498
• Call your oil company in October/ November (or earlier) for general cleaning and service. Lotsa homes with no heat take precedence over just service / cleaning.
• See if you cane get your system split upstairs/ downstairs. Might cost a bunch to do.
• Heavy thermal curtains (even for the french doors) will make a big difference. 
• See if your thermo is in the right room. Too often its put in the room that easiest, not the best. And not an outside wall. Also that its sealed from cold air dropping down the inside of the wall and blowing on the thermo from the inside. Something you can check with your new infrared toy.  

 

 

[Zeke 5,504]

The problem with blown in balloon frames and plaster and lath is the insulation gets hung up on the weeps and the diagonal bracing. Seen that very often.

also sash weight pockets are jus huge air voids.

[BobA 1,235]

8 minutes ago, Zeke said:

The problem with blown in balloon frames and plaster and lath is the insulation gets hung up on the weeps and the diagonal bracing. Seen that very often.

also sash weight pockets are jus huge air voids.

Blown in also settles. I’ve opened walls with blown in and found the top foot empty. 

[1LtCAP 4,262]

something i forgot to mention......as weird as it sounds....that thin plastic helps keep my house cooler in the summer too. by about 10 degrees.

[Zeke 5,504]

I’d have that wood stove rocking with a big fan right by it. Redneck forced hot air

[Brisco 130]

A lot of good suggestions

Just to add, an extra zone is not usually a big deal to add, but tough to say from here,

As far as a thermal image camera goes, I just picked up a Seek Compact for myself for Xmas. They make ones for Iphone or android. I have been checking it out on a few jobs the last few days. Impressed so far, it was able to see radiant loops in a floor. It is a fraction of the cost of a true thermal image camera. You could use it outside to see where you are losing the most heat.

Tighten up everything you can, and I hope you are toasty soon. (Even though you can't name pork products correctly)

[Zeke 5,504]

4 minutes ago, Brisco said:

 (Even though you can't name pork products correctly)

+1

[BobA 1,235]

As an owner and occupant of a house from circa 1887, I'm here to say that over the 30+ years I've put a ton of materials and money as well as blood sweat and tears into keeping this place warmer.  I've been pretty successful in getting it to a point of 70% normal by 20th century standards.  But all I can say is bundle up, snuggle up or what ever because you'll never get it to the point of not having some part of your anatomy cold. 

[Zeke 5,504]

Full renovation on a project many moons ago. Added a level increase foot print open staircase, cathedral ceilings, etc etc. 200% volume increased. Same boiler, 15-25% less oil used..... spray foam.

true story 

14,000 sqft 24’ open foyer, rad heat flooring,spray foam. $400/month to heat....

cheap and quick is never good... and in the long run it’s never cheap

jus sayen 

[brucin 923]

Peel I know it's a lot of work but I would run the woodstove constantly and reduce my thermostat to 62 degrees. Wood is considerably cheaper than oil but you have to lug it in and keep feeding the stove. You also have to learn your stoves consumption rate and feed it enough to keep it running overnight and maybe when you get up in the middle of the night load a few more pieces. A programmable thermostat will also help.

It's a bit of a learning curve but I'm sure you will figure it out. If you get your wood split and delivered green early in the spring then you just have to lug it in to the house.

I've kept my house in Caroga comfortable when the outdoor temp was around 20 below. 

By comfortable I mean 65 or so in the primary living/bar area. Bedrooms 60 at bedtime. They will be in the low 50's to upper 40's in the morning.

You learn to get dressed really fast.

Best of luck.