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Mrs. Peel

This Old House... is COLD!!

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Oh ok so if it uses the cold line, I'd need 2 of those pumps?  There's 2 sinks there that are affected.
Two valves (one per fixture) and one pump is what their literature shows. Are you trying to get quicker hot water at the sink or just having the water circulate in the water lines to not freeze? I thought your problem was a frozen drain line?

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Just now, capt14k said:

Two valves (one per fixture) and one pump is what their literature shows. Are you trying to get quicker hot water at the sink or just having the water circulate in the water lines to not freeze? I thought your problem was a frozen drain line?

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Water not freeze.  I had frozen feed lines, not drain lines.  hot/cold for 2 sinks in my master bathroom.

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Water not freeze.  I had frozen feed lines, not drain lines.  hot/cold for 2 sinks in my master bathroom.


My bad that was 10x with the drain lines.

It should help but it isn't really fixing the under lying issue. If you do install it let us know how much faster the hot water is at the fixture. With my dedicated recirc line and pump for my master shower, during the times I have the pump set for, water is near instantly hot.


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Will this work for the cold water line too?  Just looking up more info - the recirc won't work with PEX as there's no furthest line - it's all home run...  Won't work for the cold water either unless I get 4 of 'em.  One for each line.
Nevermind. It will only work with a branch and tee system. That's the downfall of the home run system. Recirculation isn't possible.

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That is a retrofit recirc pump that uses the cold water line as a return. So it is circulating water in both lines. I've honestly never looked into one before. I'm curious how effective they are. I've always installed dedicated recirculator lines with pumps or added instant water heater at fixture. I am curious about it myself.
 
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Works great when there's a freezing problem. Both lines have moving water at all times.

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How do you trap a tub or a shower?

Legally according to the National Standard Plumbing code 2015 adopted by the state of NJ. They allow us to vent tubs and showers this way. But not sinks, unless we have to, because there is no other way. Island sinks are usually the only exception. Beyond that it's up to the Authority having jurisdiction. Which is the township inspector. So that means when I turn in my riser diagram with the plans for a permit, he has to approve it before we can pipe it that way. It's completely in his hands. But a sink against a walk he will want the drain in the walk. If it's an outside wall the water lines must come through the floor. That's the way it is statewide, with very little exception. If the walls are 2x6 construction we can put the water lines in the outside wall as close to the inside as possible. But I'm not a fan of doing that either.

 

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Just another reason why I don't like Pex [emoji6]


Besides no Pex job could ever look as neat as copper. I run my vertical water and drain lines through drilled 2x4 blocks with solid straps (no plastic banding). I also use very few elbows of any degree, if any, on 1/2" and 3/4" copper.

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Just another reason why I don't like Pex [emoji6]


Besides no Pex job could ever look as neat as copper. I run my vertical water and drain lines through drilled 2x4 blocks with solid straps (no plastic banding). I also use very few elbows of any degree, if any, on 1/2" and 3/4" copper.

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I've seen some pretty amazing pex jobs. You would be surprised when a guy with OCD and plenty of time on his hands runs pex what it looks like.. I'm anal about my roughs looking perfect, regardless of what material I'm using.

Here's one I found that an engineer did on his own house. I refused to service it lol...

e07826c910b15151d6c5856937df05ee.jpg

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Legally according to the National Standard Plumbing code 2015 adopted by the state of NJ. They allow us to vent tubs and showers this way. But not sinks, unless we have to, because there is no other way. Island sinks are usually the only exception. Beyond that it's up to the Authority having jurisdiction. Which is the township inspector. So that means when I turn in my riser diagram with the plans for a permit, he has to approve it before we can pipe it that way. It's completely in his hands. But a sink against a walk he will want the drain in the walk. If it's an outside wall the water lines must come through the floor. That's the way it is statewide, with very little exception. If the walls are 2x6 construction we can put the water lines in the outside wall as close to the inside as possible. But I'm not a fan of doing that either.  

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On houses I built myself what I did was built a double wall in order to still come up in the wall. I also over built the houses with 2x6 Exterior walls and 2x6 interior walls at diverter wall. I wish every builder did the same. Then again I only spot built.

 

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I've seen some pretty amazing pex jobs. You would be surprised when a guy with OCD and plenty of time on his hands runs pex what it looks like.. I'm anal about my roughs looking perfect, regardless of what material I'm using.

 

Here's one I found that an engineer did on his own house. I refused to service it lol...

 

e07826c910b15151d6c5856937df05ee.jpg

 

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I'm sending that one to my father. He will get a kick out of it.

 

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But how does it work for fast hot water?

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Whenever you're not using the faucet it's using the cold as a return to the water heater. So when you open the faucet the valve closes under the sink, and your hot water is right there, just like using a conventional recirc line.

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I'm sending that one to my father. He will get a kick out of it. 
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Yeah I feel engineers should be barred from purchasing tools lol.

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I can make pex look pretty neat. Gotta snap lines. And take your time. 526d3557e7cedfe86fd2b34b540e74cd.jpg

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Radiant you can. Though I prefer Onix. I'm talking more about potable water lines. Especially vertical. The amount of time that would take to look as neat as copper would negate any savings with Pex.


This was another reason I hated using CPVC. Besides all the additional elbows and joints, and the fact that I saw the pipe itself fail twice, it took double the amount of blocks, straps, and time to make it look good.


It got to the point I offered to pipe the houses in copper for the same price. Ryan Homes declined because they got a rebate from BF Goodwich for every house they used CPVC in. They also used T-Ply for sheathing. If their useless, know nothing, straight out of college, one for every jobsite supers didn't have the houses unlocked we would cut a hole with a razor knife and reach in and unlock the door.


I will give them credit for one thing. They put blue dots everywhere and made sure every paint and spackle touch up were done. This way when a Ryan Homes buyer came for their walk through they didn't look into what was underneath and realize how much of a POS they just bought.

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Radiant you can. Though I prefer Onix. I'm talking more about potable water lines. Especially vertical. The amount of time that would take to look as neat as copper would negate any savings with Pex.

 

 

This was another reason I hated using CPVC. Besides all the additional elbows and joints, and the fact that I saw the pipe itself fail twice, it took double the amount of blocks, straps, and time to make it look good.

 

 

It got to the point I offered to pipe the houses in copper for the same price. Ryan Homes declined because they got a rebate from BF Goodwich for every house they used CPVC in. They also used T-Ply for sheathing. If their useless, know nothing, straight out of college, one for every jobsite supers didn't have the houses unlocked we would cut a hole with a razor knife and reach in and unlock the door.

 

 

I will give them credit for one thing. They put blue dots everywhere and made sure every paint and spackle touch up were done. This way when a Ryan Homes buyer came for their walk through they didn't look into what was underneath and realize how much of a POS they just bought.

 

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I have to dig up some domestic pex roughs I've done. They're straight, neat and clean. But I also prefer copper. I'm old school too.

 

The only thing I'll do with CPVC is rip it out to replace it with something else lol.

 

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I have to dig up some domestic pex roughs I've done. They're straight, neat and clean. But I also prefer copper. I'm old school too.  
The only thing I'll do with CPVC is rip it out to replace it with something else lol.
 
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I agree 100% about CPVC. Toll started using it too along with T-Ply as well. Not sure if both still do but Toll was using both on $700k-$1M homes.


Funny story. Ryan optioned lots in Marlboro from Meiterman; before his conviction. Inspectors saw T-Ply and CPVC and refused to allow it. However code did allow it. Inspectors told them how long it would take to schedule inspections and Ryan agreed to use plywood sheathing if they could use CPVC. Inspectors relented. The model house with finished basement was one of the CPVC pipes that I saw fail. 4' Crack right down the middle of the pipe. Finished basement ruined. Ryan ended up only selling 3 houses in 9 months. Meiterman threw them off the site and finished the job himself.

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I agree 100% about CPVC. Toll started using it too along with T-Ply as well. Not sure if both still do but Toll was using both on $700k-$1M homes.


Funny story. Ryan optioned lots in Marlboro from Meiterman; before his conviction. Inspectors saw T-Ply and CPVC and refused to allow it. However code did allow it. Inspectors told them how long it would take to schedule inspections and Ryan agreed to use plywood sheathing if they could use CPVC. Inspectors relented. The model house with finished basement was one of the CPVC pipes that I saw fail. 4' Crack right down the middle of the pipe. Finished basement ruined. Ryan ended up only selling 3 houses in 9 months. Meiterman threw them off the site and finished the job himself.

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When I used to do Toll Brothers back in the day. We did copper only. I was still an apprentice back then. Almost 20 years ago. We still used the bender and Type LBT or MBT. The good old days.

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When I used to do Toll Brothers back in the day. We did copper only. I was still an apprentice back then. Almost 20 years ago. We still used the bender and Type LBT or MBT. The good old days.

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CPVC was always a "down the shore" thing in NJ. We never see it up here.

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CPVC was always a "down the shore" thing in NJ. We never see it up here.

 

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I think Toll stopped using copper because of the roughing sub in Jackson who was stealing the pipe he installed during the day at night.

 

 

I've only seen Toll and Ryan use CPVC. What is a shore thing is ABS. Only in the last couple years due to price difference have I started using PVC. Winter time I will still use ABS if there is no heat on the job. High end houses in Deal we still use Cast and Copper Drains.

 

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I think Toll stopped using copper because of the roughing sub in Jackson who was stealing the pipe he installed during the day at night. 
 
I've only seen Toll and Ryan use CPVC. What is a shore thing is ABS. Only in the last couple years due to price difference have I started using PVC. Winter time I will still use ABS if there is no heat on the job. High end houses in Deal we still use Cast and Copper Drains.
 
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I've done both ABS and PVC depending on the company I was working for. Personally I only use PVC, just easier to get here. Cast and copper on commercial almost always. High end spec houses PVC branches with cast stacks.

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The only person I'll buy a new home from is Mike Holmes. Of course it would be in Canada, and I'd freeze my ass off whenever I took a step outside, but at least it would be built right and the inside would be warm. :D

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The only person I'll buy a new home from is Mike Holmes. Of course it would be in Canada, and I'd freeze my ass off whenever I took a step outside, but at least it would be built right and the inside would be warm. [emoji3]

 

I wouldn't. I watched an episode when that genius stated you shouldn't caulk a toilet. His reason was so you can see if it starts leaking. Too bad we have codes that say it must be caulked and for good reason.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, capt14k said:

 

I wouldn't. I watched an episode when that genius stated you shouldn't caulk a toilet. His reason was so you can see if it starts leaking. Too bad we have codes that say it must be caulked and for good reason.

 

 

 

:o

My house has windows with storm windows on the inside. I don't know how much worse it could get. :lol: 

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15 hours ago, Krdshrk said:

Problem with the drip/trickle is that my wife turns it off at night... or I don't turn it on enough - I have to do both cold and hot cuz it's pex. It's hard to judge how much to turn it on.

Also - I got a $30 solution instead of $235

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Frost-King-12-ft-Water-Pipe-Heat-Cable-HC12A/100032792

Popped that on yesterday and had no issues this AM.

3 faucets in my house are vulnerable to freezing (all on the same problematic outside wall). To fix it permanently is a BIG job (going from the inside means tearing out kitchen cabinets and tiling which cover the vertical chase that the pipes are running through - or - I guess, tearing off the exterior clapboard and addressing it from the outside-in would be another option. Either way, a big job! So, I drip my faucets during conditions like this. Sure, I spend a bit more on my water bill... but it's FAR less expensive that a pipe bursting in an exterior wall (not to mention, a leaking pipe could put water over my old electrical wiring - perish the thought!)

As for you, as others said, you need to do a permanent fix - if the bathroom is over your garage, well damn, rip out the drywall ceiling in your garage, insulate the hell out of the pipe, put drywall back up, paint - DONE! There's no reason you should deal with "old house worries" when that's not what you signed up for. Trust me, it's exhausting!

In the meantime, I would still drip the water in the vulnerable room. I set mine to a fine stream (about 1/16 of an inch from one faucet, then I slowly add the other faucet until the stream gets a little bigger - then i know both pipes are engaged. That does the trick for me). Then, I put a SLEW of post-it notes so that I don't (due to sheer habit) turn anything off like your wife did. I have a post-it note at eye-level on my bathroom mirror, a note taped to each sink handle, a post-it note on each cabinet door (you should also leave those cabinet doors open so warm air circulates to the sink pipes). I probably have 10 hot-pink post-it notes in my bathroom - another 5 in my kitchen - and they stay there until the dangerous weather passes... and go back up again during the next deep freeze. I do everything that I can to eliminate "human error".

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over the last few days this extreme is really making me fight. while i'm mostly able to keep it around 70'ish average, if i let the stove go out, it drops quick. while the oil boiler takes over, it's radiant, which in my mind is nowhere near as efficient than some form of forced air. with the stove and fans, it always feels good, even if i can feel a draft here n there. when the oil heat takes over, even though the stat may say it's 70, it sure as hell doesn't feel it.

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1 hour ago, this_is_nascar said:

Any of you have outside oil tanks and fear it gelling or freezing over the next several days?


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@DeerSlayer put up a post on FB Yesterday about it...

*****Public Service announcement for everyone with oil heat and an oil tank that isn't located indoors where it's warm!*****

Reguarding number 2 heating oil, gelling happens when the paraffin usually present in fuel starts to solidify when the temperature drops. At 32 degrees, the wax in liquid form will crystallize and leave the fuel tank clouded. At 10-15 degrees, it will finally start to gel and clog the tank and fuel filters.

MAKE SURE YOU TREAT YOUR OIL TANK WITH ADDITIVES THAT PREVENT GELLING, BEFORE IT GELLS!!!!!!

26165502_1969655293359252_58163084648821

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3 faucets in my house are vulnerable to freezing (all on the same problematic outside wall). To fix it permanently is a BIG job (going from the inside means tearing out kitchen cabinets and tiling which cover the vertical chase that the pipes are running through - or - I guess, tearing off the exterior clapboard and addressing it from the outside-in would be another option. Either way, a big job! So, I drip my faucets during conditions like this. Sure, I spend a bit more on my water bill... but it's FAR less expensive that a pipe bursting in an exterior wall (not to mention, a leaking pipe could put water over my old electrical wiring - perish the thought!)
As for you, as others said, you need to do a permanent fix - if the bathroom is over your garage, well damn, rip out the drywall ceiling in your garage, insulate the hell out of the pipe, put drywall back up, paint - DONE! There's no reason you should deal with "old house worries" when that's not what you signed up for. Trust me, it's exhausting!
In the meantime, I would still drip the water in the vulnerable room. I set mine to a fine stream (about 1/16 of an inch from one faucet, then I slowly add the other faucet until the stream gets a little bigger - then i know both pipes are engaged. That does the trick for me). Then, I put a SLEW of post-it notes so that I don't (due to sheer habit) turn anything off like your wife did. I have a post-it note at eye-level on my bathroom mirror, a note taped to each sink handle, a post-it note on each cabinet door (you should also leave those cabinet doors open so warm air circulates to the sink pipes). I probably have 10 hot-pink post-it notes in my bathroom - another 5 in my kitchen - and they stay there until the dangerous weather passes... and go back up again during the next deep freeze. I do everything that I can to eliminate "human error".
Insulating pipes in an unheated space doesn't stop them from freezing.

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over the last few days this extreme is really making me fight. while i'm mostly able to keep it around 70'ish average, if i let the stove go out, it drops quick. while the oil boiler takes over, it's radiant, which in my mind is nowhere near as efficient than some form of forced air. with the stove and fans, it always feels good, even if i can feel a draft here n there. when the oil heat takes over, even though the stat may say it's 70, it sure as hell doesn't feel it.
Forced air is no where near as efficient as Hydronic heating. Not even in the same ball park.

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