This Old House... is COLD!!

[Handyman 5,682]

3 minutes ago, DeerSlayer said:

Forced air is no where near as efficient as Hydronic heating. Not even in the same ball park.

It'll warm up a room a lot faster, but over the long term radiators will always win.

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

2 minutes ago, DeerSlayer said:

Insulating pipes in an unheated space doesn't stop them from freezing.

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It doesn't??? Mind. Blown.

So even if I was able to get into that chase at some point and "noodle" those pipes and put some nice fluffy insulation around that... it STILL wouldn't keep the water from freezing because the chase itself is unheated? Oh, brother! So, basically, you're telling me I have a problem without a solution? (...as long as those pipes are running up an outside corner of the house, I must drip pipes in freezing weather... forever and ever?)

[DeerSlayer 241]

It'll warm up a room a lot faster, but over the long term radiators will always win.

Exactly, you're heating a mass that stays hot with less energy, as opposed to heating air using more energy. That instantly cools off as soon as you remove the heat source from it.

 

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It doesn't??? Mind. Blown.

So even if I was able to get into that chase at some point and "noodle" those pipes and put some nice fluffy insulation around that... it STILL wouldn't keep the water from freezing because the chase itself is unheated? Oh, brother! So, basically, you're telling me I have a problem without a solution? (...as long as those pipes are running up an outside corner of the house, I must drip pipes in freezing weather... forever and ever?)

Yep...

 

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It doesn't??? Mind. Blown.

So even if I was able to get into that chase at some point and "noodle" those pipes and put some nice fluffy insulation around that... it STILL wouldn't keep the water from freezing because the chase itself is unheated? Oh, brother! So, basically, you're telling me I have a problem without a solution? (...as long as those pipes are running up an outside corner of the house, I must drip pipes in freezing weather... forever and ever?)

There is a solution, move the pipes. Or keep the water in those pipes moving all the time. Then they can't freeze.

 

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[10X 3,296]

3 minutes ago, DeerSlayer said:

Yep...

Indeed.   Insulation delays freezing.  Better insulation delays it more.   But, without heat input into the space, whatever is inside is inevitably headed towards ambient temperature; the only question is how fast it will get there.

I'm babysitting a shop heater propped up on box propped up on a plastic bin propped up on a bar cart, blowing hot air through a custom tin-foil duct into the wall where my frozen drain remains frozen.   This arrangement is making headway, though it's not something I can run if I'm not home to watch it.

[Malsua 1,422]

 

I realize I'm a bit late to the party on this thread.

My old kitchen was on piers.  The first piping job, prior to us living there was copper in the 2x4 walls.  After that froze, I had a plumber run pipes under the floor(in open air) and we drained them whenever it got cold.  That worked right up until we were away and a cold snap burst them.    There is no good way to get the pipes into the kitchen through a heated space.

The next iteration was Pex.    If we forgot to drip the faucet and it got down 20 or colder, the pex would freeze.   A few minutes with a torpedo heater blown under the kitchen from a good distance to prevent fire, would thaw it out and we were back in business.

I finally got tired of that and put some really good heat tape along the pex, wrapped it all up in insulation and turned it on for cold nights.  That works great right up until your sister in law turns off the switch before she went to bed.

The ultimate solution was to completely rip off the kitchen, rebuild it and run the pex pipes in the floor.  Not only are the pipes insulated with with fiberglass, I put zip system insulated R6 sheathing  under the floor and taped all the joints.  I also hung plastic all around underneath to still the air.    I'm happy to report that we had -3F the other night, did not drip the faucets and it didn't freeze.

Some hints from living in an old house.

-If you can't replace the windows, window film them during the winter as suggested in this thread already.

-Get door snakes!     In our new kitchen, the storm door and the main door are so well sealed, you can't close the door fast as this huge puff of air comes out.  The old one...you'd get snow on the floor and the door snake made a huge difference.

-Spray foam everything you can.   Map out spots, get some big gap and small gap.  Start the can and go down the list...fill it all up.

-turn on ceiling fans, LOW speed.  You just want to churn the air up, not blow it hard.

-If you have casement windows, latching them tightens it up.

-put some wall coverings on outside walls.   There's a reason why castles had tapestries everywhere.

-During the coldest times, hang a sheet of plastic or a blanket over ancillary doors.  

 

 

[Krdshrk 3,877]

6 minutes ago, Malsua said:

I finally got tired of that and put some really good heat tape along the pex, wrapped it all up in insulation and turned it on for cold nights.  That works great right up until your sister in law turns off the switch before she went to bed.

 

Which heat tape did you use?  I have Frost King on mine right now...

[capt14k 2,052]

I do have to chime in and warn everyone that it isn't 100% accurate that moving water in pipes can't freeze. While leaving a faucet dripping and having a line recirc will prevent freezing most of the time it will not 100% of the time. Over the next couple days I would not count on a dripping faucet or recirculating line not to freeze. Look at the pics of the fountains down south that flash froze. We may have -20 wind chill with 45mph winds. That will freeze even pipes with moving water if the wind blows across the pipe.

[Malsua 1,422]

8 minutes ago, Krdshrk said:

Which heat tape did you use?  I have Frost King on mine right now...

Hmm, I don't recall, don't think it was Frost King.  I do know it has a thermostat, constant wattage and was frickin expensive.  Actually, it was "heat cable" that runs along the pipe, not the ole wrap around, burn your house down type.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Just now, Malsua said:

Hmm, I don't recall, don't think it was Frost King.  I do know it has a thermostat, constant wattage and was frickin expensive.  Actually, it was "heat cable" that runs along the pipe, not the ole wrap around, burn your house down type.

That's exactly what I have - thermostat that senses the pipe's temperature and auto shuts off.  Runs along the pipe, not around. 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Frost-King-18-ft-Automatic-Electric-Heat-Cable-Kit-HC18A/100196820

 

[Malsua 1,422]

Just now, Krdshrk said:

That's exactly what I have - thermostat that senses the pipe's temperature and auto shuts off.  Runs along the pipe, not around. 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Frost-King-18-ft-Automatic-Electric-Heat-Cable-Kit-HC18A/100196820

 

Looks about like that.   It was installed and used for probably 8 years, no issue.   I wrapped insulation around the pipes and cable as well, and where possible, wrapped the hot and cold together so that the hot helps keep the cold from freezing just by running the hot every once in a while.   My pipes were literally hanging in space 8 inches off the ground under the house and the cable kept it from freezing in all temps.    It wasn't ideal, but I figured if it froze, I could thaw it and if it burst, sticking another piece of pex in was trivial.

[Handyman 5,682]

1 hour ago, capt14k said:

I do have to chime in and warn everyone that it isn't 100% accurate that moving water in pipes can't freeze. 

That's what I was wondering. I have seen pictures of frozen waterfalls, after all...

[brucin 923]

For everyone who is leaving a faucet dripping make sure your waste water pipe is well below ground. I found out the hard way soon after I bought my house that the waste water pipe was a few inches above ground before heading down to the septic system.

The slow trickle of water kept the faucet from freezing but was not enough of a flow to keep the water from freezing in the waste pipe. It froze solid and I didn't find out till my wife flushed the toilet and the washing machine drain erupted like old faithful.

I was lucky as the waste water pipe is cast iron so I heated it with a torch and solved that problem. As for my faucet freezing I have a blow dryer wired up that I turn on for a few minutes every morning to defrost the cold water. Luckily it only freezes when the temps drop to single digits which has been happening a lot lately.

[capt14k 2,052]

That's what I was wondering. I have seen pictures of frozen waterfalls, after all...

Even Niagra has frozen over. To freeze moving water it does take cold and wind. All it takes is one molecule to freeze and another one to build on that. Soon that 1/2" line is 1/4" open. Now flow is reduced and it doesn't take much to freeze that last bit. Still having water moving through the pipes is better than it standing still.

 

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[Krdshrk 3,877]

45 minutes ago, capt14k said:

Even Niagra has frozen solid. To freeze moving water it does take cold and wind. All it takes is one molecule to freeze and another one to build on that. Soon that 1/2" line is 1/4" open. Now flow is reduced and it doesn't take much to freeze that last bit. Still having water moving through the pipes is better than it standing still.

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Niagara Falls never freezes solid - they have icebreakers and water continues to flow under the top layer - what freezes is the mist/etc that gets kicked up.  Keeping water flowing to the inlets for the hydroelectric power there is key.  It never stops.

2 hours ago, Malsua said:

Looks about like that.   It was installed and used for probably 8 years, no issue.   I wrapped insulation around the pipes and cable as well, and where possible, wrapped the hot and cold together so that the hot helps keep the cold from freezing just by running the hot every once in a while.   My pipes were literally hanging in space 8 inches off the ground under the house and the cable kept it from freezing in all temps.    It wasn't ideal, but I figured if it froze, I could thaw it and if it burst, sticking another piece of pex in was trivial.

Cool.  Now I'm less worried about it shorting out.... maybe @DeerSlayer was referring to the cheaper wrap type heaters?

[1LtCAP 4,263]

did i miss it? @Mrs. Peel has any of the suggestions helped?

[Malsua 1,422]

7 minutes ago, Krdshrk said:

Niagara Falls never freezes solid - they have icebreakers and water continues to flow under the top layer - what freezes is the mist/etc that gets kicked up.  Keeping water flowing to the inlets for the hydroelectric power there is key.  It never stops.

Cool.  Now I'm less worried about it shorting out.... maybe @DeerSlayer was referring to the cheaper wrap type heaters?

Heat Wrap goes AROUND and Heat Cable goes along.  Heat Cable was specifically built to address the fact that heat tape was burning houses down.   This was primarily because it was wrapped on top of itself and didn't have a thermostat.  It would get hot and short.   These days however, we have both GFCI and Arc-fault breakers that would trip before a fire.  Also, even the cheap wrap type is designed to trip out internally if it shorts.  In other words, the tape these days is way safer that it was 30 years ago.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

8 minutes ago, Malsua said:

Heat Wrap goes AROUND and Heat Cable goes along.  Heat Cable was specifically built to address the fact that heat tape was burning houses down.   This was primarily because it was wrapped on top of itself and didn't have a thermostat.  It would get hot and short.   These days however, we have both GFCI and Arc-fault breakers that would trip before a fire.  Also, even the cheap wrap type is designed to trip out internally if it shorts.  In other words, the tape these days is way safer that it was 30 years ago.

Ok that does make me feel a lot better about it now

[capt14k 2,052]

Cool.  Now I'm less worried about it shorting out.... maybe [mention=7008]DeerSlayer[/mention] was referring to the cheaper wrap type heaters?

Ok it doesn't freeze solid (which I did know from my trip there) but it does freeze. Including the water that feeds the falls. Point being water in pipes can freeze even if moving.

 

 

 

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

21 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

did i miss it? @Mrs. Peel has any of the suggestions helped?

Oh, thank you for asking! Yes, though I'm not done yet, the situation is remarkably improved. I guess the good thing about frigid temps is that it's easy to locate air leaks! I've been like a detective going through the house... just running my hands around doors, windows, outlets, etc. Interestingly, the slider in my sitting room is an Anderson and tight as a drum, but the decorative wood trim on either side of the door had settled a bit and opened up the tiniest of cracks in the paint between the decorative trim and the door frame... the amount of ice-cold air pouring through those cracks was just unreal! I also have a new piece of molding (I think it's called a door sill? that molding on the floor that goes up against the door?) but I haven't sanded, stained and installed it yet. I'm such a dumbass.... a tidal wave of cold air was seeping in there too! So, as a cheap, temporary fix, I put lengths of clear packing tape over those areas --- instantly stopped the air leaks.  

No exaggeration, between the packing tape fix, pulling furniture away from the only baseboard heater in this room, vacuuming its fins really well, sealing (so far) about one-quarter of the upstairs windows, and putting aluminum foil on the about 1/3 of the master bedroom baseboard fins... I'm proud to say the thermostat in my (previously cold) sitting room is set at 70... and right this second the room temperature is actually at 70! So warm, so happy! Woo-hoo! As an added benefit, the master bedroom is not quite so sweltering at night. Yeah, going with 2 zones makes sense --- but for the moment, I'm going to buy more aluminum foil and see if I can oh-so-cheaply "balance" the system myself just by blocking off some of the fins in every room upstairs. It's worth a try!

I'm also getting more proficient with my woodstove. I start it up every afternoon around 3 and run it throughout the evening, adding the last few pieces of firewood at 11 pm and letting it die out naturally in the wee hours of the morning. So, it's running about 12 hours per day. I'm sure even just that is taking some strain off of my boiler and saving me oil and $ too.  (So far, unsuccessful at pushing that warm air into the sitting room... might need one more fan).

Sealing windows is taking much longer than I thought - I have to get up on a ladder, etc. - it's a bit time-consuming... and I still have pipes to "noodle" in the basement! So, I can see I have many more days & hours of work ahead of me. But, if this continues to be a cold winter, I'm sure all of these little insulating tricks will pay for themselves soon enough!

Thanks to everyone for their great advice. And "good luck" to those of you experiencing your own house woes in these frigid temps. 

[Zeke 5,504]

Njgf+Peel Power = muscle

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

1 minute ago, Zeke said:

Njgf+Peel Power = muscle

Peel Power? LMAO... well, I don't know about that, Zeke... 

But it does feel great to be in a warm house! I do feel a bit "Pioneer Woman" the last few days... stoking the fire, tapping into my inner Bob Vila... LOL.

[Zeke 5,504]

1 minute ago, Mrs. Peel said:

Peel Power? LMAO... well, I don't know about that, Zeke... 

But it does feel great to be in a warm house! I do feel a bit "Pioneer Woman" the last few days... stoking the fire, tapping into my inner Bob Vila... LOL.

You fixed it! You did it! Awesome 

jus sayen 

[capt14k 2,052]

You may want to pull that wood off and insulate behind it. Also put weather strip on door before installing sill. Wood isn't the best insulator for air.

 

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[fishnut 2,358]

Reflectix type insulation will work better than aluminm foil if you want to go that far. 

[AVB-AMG 530]

Home Heating System – Steam Radiators

For those of us in older homes, primarily pre-1940’s vintage, we have had to deal with various remodeling projects involving replacing/renovating windows, replacing roofs, adding wall/ceiling/roof insulation and upgrading plumbing, etc. This current snow storm with high winds, followed by the forecasted air temperatures dropping to around 0 deg. F. at the end of this week, is really exposing many weak links, flaws and other issues involved in keeping our homes comfortably warm. 

For our circa-1930 Tudor-style home we have done most of these projects over the years  For our heating system, I have serviced annually the fuel oil burning Weil-McLain boiler that provides steam heat via a one-pipe system, that uses black iron pipes with compression fittings connecting to iron radiators throughout the house.  One important aspect to ensure that this type of heating system works as designed is to check each of the steam air valves/vents on every radiator to ensure they are working properly.

Due to this current and forecasted severe cold weather period, this past week I decided to check all of the steam air valve/vents on our radiators, which are Maid-O-Mist Jacobus Steam Vents.  Sure enough, many of them were clogged.  These often-ignored devices are an important aspect of ensuring that the heating system is working properly and efficiently.  After about 4-5 winter heating seasons, some of these air vents become clogged and corroded with dirty/rusty sediment and no longer work as intended, causing the radiator to not heat effectively or spew steam constantly, reducing the system’s efficiency.  Some of our vents were even much older than that…

These air vents are supposed to hiss initially when the steam enters the pipes and radiators, pushing out the cooler ambient air.  Once the steam has replaced the cooler air inside the radiator, an internal float in the vent will close trapping the steam inside.  As the steam transfers its heat to the cast iron to “radiate” into the room, it cools and transforms back into water and the condensation flows back out the same pipe to the returns leading back to the boiler in a closed loop.

For those of you who may have this type of heating system in your home, you should check to make sure they are working properly.  A correctly sized and installed steam system will have radiators with vents of differing sizes so that the steam distribution is balanced throughout the system. Generally, you want larger vents (faster venting) on the distant radiators, as well as larger vents on the very large radiators (regardless of location). You want the all radiators to heat up at the same time, except you want the radiator in the room with the thermostat for the furnace to have a smaller vent opening so it will be a little bit slower so you don't satisfy the set temperature on that thermostat before the other rooms throughout the house are warm. 

An important lesson here is that the longer it takes the air to leave the radiator, the longer it takes for steam to fill it and the longer you burner will use fuel. There is a limit to how fast you can vent, especially on the larger radiators. Beyond a certain rate, too much steam will condense at a rate faster than can drain out of the radiator and it'll spit out the valve.

Also, when we renovated our bathrooms, I replaced the iron radiators with a slimmer, more contemporary style of welded steel radiator that is manufactured by STEAMRADIATORS in Ward Hill, MA.  (FYI, they are at www.steamradiators.com)  They are a subsidiary of RUNTAL, which is a big European low-profile hot water radiator manufacturer.  Those of you who have traveled in Europe have probably seen their radiators.  They work fine and look really good, taking up much less space and are wall-mounted, as opposed to being floor-mounted.

Good luck to everyone on dealing with this nasty cold spell…..

AVB-AMG

[voyager9 3,434]

4 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

Peel Power? LMAO... 

[capt14k 2,052]

@AVB make sure you put the steam vents in the right order.


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[Handyman 5,682]

This is all too technical, Peel. You just need a big stud to keep you warm.

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

2 minutes ago, Handyman said:

This is all too technical, Peel. You just need a big stud to keep you warm.

That was a good one! LMAO.

[Handyman 5,682]

Only problem is AVB and Zeke are already taken...