This Old House... is COLD!!

[Krdshrk 3,877]

18 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Exactly. Thaw once. Then fix. It’s 2018 unless it’s truly cost prohibitive to the client. There should never be a repeating freeze issue.

Thawed it but with family in town and Xmas/New Years I couldn't fix 'till yesterday.  Thawed it 3x actually.

[DeerSlayer 241]

Thawed it but with family in town and Xmas/New Years I couldn't fix 'till yesterday.  Thawed it 3x actually.

Dude, let the faucet drip/trickle. It won't freeze if it's moving.

Also I know how to fix that even in an unheated space. Without moving pipes or adding heat.

Install this. Fixed! Plus you will save water, and never have to wait for hot to come up to the faucet.

https://www.afsupply.com/grundfos-595916.html?gclid=CjwKCAiA-KzSBRAnEiwAkmQ1521-WJQm3rbZUFR1Wg7b7AMZaGUoTcWuByuawyY9pjOAmm6A2L5DmRoCm-gQAvD_BwE

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[Zeke 5,504]

1 hour ago, 10X said:

Our kitchen sink drain line froze for the second time in the 10 years we’ve been in the 1890’s house.  It’s very hard to get heat to it in the exterior wall, below floor level but still above ground.   Last time it took a week of indirect heat and warming exterior temps to get it flowing.    This time we don’t have warming exterior temps in the near future. 

I’ll be back to running the dishwasher drain into a 5 gallon bucket tonight, because that’s easier than hauling dishes upstairs to the bathroom

My new and reno’ always floor floor. First everyone is running supplies in floor. You have any idea what a pita scribe it is for the sink base when drain is in the wall, supplies in da floor? 

I think you’re another easy ( relatively speaking) fix

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Just now, DeerSlayer said:

Dude, let the faucet drip/trickle. It won't freeze if it's moving.

Also I know how to fix that even in an unheated space. Without moving pipes or adding heat.

Install this. Fixed! Plus you will save water, and never have to wait for hot to come up to the faucet.

https://www.afsupply.com/grundfos-595916.html?gclid=CjwKCAiA-KzSBRAnEiwAkmQ1521-WJQm3rbZUFR1Wg7b7AMZaGUoTcWuByuawyY9pjOAmm6A2L5DmRoCm-gQAvD_BwE

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Problem with the drip/trickle is that my wife turns it off at night... or I don't turn it on enough - I have to do both cold and hot cuz it's pex. It's hard to judge how much to turn it on.

Also - I got a $30 solution instead of $235

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Frost-King-12-ft-Water-Pipe-Heat-Cable-HC12A/100032792

Popped that on yesterday and had no issues this AM.

[capt14k 2,052]

Supplies can not be run in floor by code unless necessary. Only really necessary if there is an outside wall. If beam in way come through floor and break into wall under vanity in toe kick area.

 

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[DeerSlayer 241]

My new and reno’ always floor floor. First everyone is running supplies in floor. You have any idea what a pita scribe it is for the sink base when drain is in the wall, supplies in da floor? 

I think you’re another easy ( relatively speaking) fix

You realize the drain is coming out of the wall so it's vented properly. You can't just shove a drain pipe through the floor into a cabinet, it's not vented that way. Drains should never freeze anyway. Unless they're in need of being replaced due to build up inside the pipe which can't be cleaned out after a certain point. Especially when we're talking about metal pipe.

 

Supplies through the floor are frowned upon, because they're unsanitary. Only when we can't go anywhere else is it allowed.

 

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[Zeke 5,504]

1 minute ago, Krdshrk said:

Problem with the drip/trickle is that my wife turns it off at night... or I don't turn it on enough - I have to do both cold and hot cuz it's pex. It's hard to judge how much to turn it on.

Also - I got a $30 solution instead of $235

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Frost-King-12-ft-Water-Pipe-Heat-Cable-HC12A/100032792

Popped that on yesterday and had no issues this AM.

Let us know how much that cost long term. When cheap isn’t exactly cheap

[Krdshrk 3,877]

1 minute ago, Zeke said:

Let us know how much that cost long term. When cheap isn’t exactly cheap

Well, I expect it to last a year or two - I'll only have it on when it's really cold.  Will check it again tonight and over the next couple days to make sure it's not overheating or melting anything.  It turns itself off when it hits 40 degrees.

 

[DeerSlayer 241]

Problem with the drip/trickle is that my wife turns it off at night... or I don't turn it on enough - I have to do both cold and hot cuz it's pex. It's hard to judge how much to turn it on.
Also - I got a $30 solution instead of $235
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Frost-King-12-ft-Water-Pipe-Heat-Cable-HC12A/100032792
Popped that on yesterday and had no issues this AM.

Great temporary solution. Not a permanent one. That heat trace tape burns down a lot of houses.

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[Zeke 5,504]

1 minute ago, DeerSlayer said:

You realize the drain is coming out of the wall so it's vented properly. You can't just shove a drain pipe through the floor into a cabinet, it's not vented that way. Drains should never freeze anyway. Unless they're in need of being replaced due to build up inside the pipe which can't be cleaned out after a certain point. Especially when we're talking about metal pipe.

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How do you drain an island? How do you supply an island! Hmmm

Better yet, how do you vent an island?

hmmn

[DeerSlayer 241]

How do you drain an island? How do you supply an island! Hmmm

Better yet, how do you vent an island?

hmmn

We island sink vent with a loop vent. An inspector will allow it for an island sink. Not a sink against a wall where we can vent normally. That's the only acceptable place in the code to use a loop vent.

 

We can't just island sink vent everything because the guy setting the cabinet can't use a tape measure lol. I also never glue in the stub out into the cabinet. So the carpenters can pull the stub, then set the cabinet.

 

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[Zeke 5,504]

Just now, DeerSlayer said:

We island sink vent with a loop vent. An inspector will allow it for an island sink. Not a sink against a wall where we can vent normally. That's the only acceptable place in the code to use a loop vent.

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In cabs are legal. And you can tie in vent stack under floor. Any azzhat that’s running supplies on an exterior wall will not be on my job. Period 

[Krdshrk 3,877]

6 minutes ago, DeerSlayer said:

Great temporary solution. Not a permanent one. That heat trace tape burns down a lot of houses.

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Seriously?  It doesn't get that hot...  I'm gonna re-trace some of it tonight then too to make sure...

[DeerSlayer 241]

In cabs are legal. And you can tie in vent stack under floor. Any azzhat that’s running supplies on an exterior wall will not be on my job. Period 

Supplies can't ever go in an exterior wall. That's when we can come through the floor.

I don't come from the ghetto. I don't use mechanical vents even if they're now allowed since the last code change. They're garbage and I refuse to install one.

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[Zeke 5,504]

Upstairs? Inch per foot. Make it work, subs.

[DeerSlayer 241]

Seriously?  It doesn't get that hot...  I'm gonna re-trace some of it tonight then too to make sure...

It does when it malfunctions. Happens a lot.

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[Zeke 5,504]

1 minute ago, DeerSlayer said:

It does when it malfunctions. Happens a lot.

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It’s jus a resistor.

[DeerSlayer 241]

Upstairs? Inch per foot. Make it work, subs.

We can oversize a kitchen drain to 2" and flat vent an island sink if we don't exceed 8' from the vent on the sink arm. That's the only other way it can be done. It's 1/4" per foot on 2" or smaller.

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[Krdshrk 3,877]

1 minute ago, DeerSlayer said:

It does when it malfunctions. Happens a lot.

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Haven't seen much about it though they did recommend a GFCI outlet... which it is plugged in to.

[DeerSlayer 241]

Haven't seen much about it though they did recommend a GFCI outlet... which it is plugged in to.

Again. I wouldn't make it a permanent thing. For now it's helping. But address it properly asap.

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[Krdshrk 3,877]

Just now, DeerSlayer said:

Again. I wouldn't make it a permanent thing. For now it's helping. But address it properly asap.

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Info's going to the builder to address.

[Zeke 5,504]

1 minute ago, DeerSlayer said:

We can oversize a kitchen drain to 2" and flat vent an island sink if we don't exceed 8' from the vent on the sink arm. That's the only other way it can be done. It's 1/4" per foot on 2" or smaller.

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Typical old school kitchen sink.

drain stub, 90, t, in wall.

you can floor drain, 90, t. To vent.

4 minutes ago, DeerSlayer said:

We can oversize a kitchen drain to 2" and flat vent an island sink if we don't exceed 8' from the vent on the sink arm. That's the only other way it can be done. It's 1/4" per foot on 2" or smaller.

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Hole size bro, not pitch

[DeerSlayer 241]

Hole size bro, not pitch

The old school way creates an S-Trap. That's illegal to do now. That type of trap looses it's prime.

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[Zeke 5,504]

1 minute ago, DeerSlayer said:

The old school way creates an S-Trap. That's illegal to do now. That type of trap looses it's prime.

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I’m starting to rilly like you. I’m kinda sure we on same page ish, but it’s lost in translation. Happy New Year!

[capt14k 2,052]

The old school way creates an S-Trap. That's illegal to do now. That type of trap looses it's prime.

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What he is advocating has been against the code for as long as I can remember.

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[Krdshrk 3,877]

49 minutes ago, DeerSlayer said:

Install this. Fixed! Plus you will save water, and never have to wait for hot to come up to the faucet.

https://www.afsupply.com/grundfos-595916.html?gclid=CjwKCAiA-KzSBRAnEiwAkmQ1521-WJQm3rbZUFR1Wg7b7AMZaGUoTcWuByuawyY9pjOAmm6A2L5DmRoCm-gQAvD_BwE

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Will this work for the cold water line too?  Just looking up more info - the recirc won't work with PEX as there's no furthest line - it's all home run...  Won't work for the cold water either unless I get 4 of 'em.  One for each line.

[Zeke 5,504]

How do you trap a tub or a shower?

[capt14k 2,052]

Will this work for the cold water line too?  Just looking up more info - the recirc won't work with PEX as there's no furthest line - it's all home run...  Won't work for the cold water either unless I get 4 of 'em.  One for each line.

 

That is a retrofit recirc pump that uses the cold water line as a return. So it is circulating water in both lines. I've honestly never looked into one before. I'm curious how effective they are. I've always installed dedicated recirculator lines with pumps or added instant water heater at fixture. I am curious about it myself.

 

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[MB24 37]

You plumbers realize most of this trap talk is between just you. most here probably have no idea what your talking about. LOL

[Krdshrk 3,877]

14 minutes ago, capt14k said:

 

That is a retrofit recirc pump that uses the cold water line as a return. So it is circulating water in both lines. I've honestly never looked into one before. I'm curious how effective they are. I've always installed dedicated recirculator lines with pumps or added instant water heater at fixture. I am curious about it myself.

 

Oh ok so if it uses the cold line, I'd need 2 of those pumps?  There's 2 sinks there that are affected.