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NJ arrests another one, this time from FL

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Heard Maryland is famous for this. Heard of one case they pulled over a NJ resident and his family who were on their way for a family vacation officers made them all get out of the car and searched every inch of their car and bags because he had a NJ FID  card and kept asking him where his guns were just because he was from out of state.
Why would you tell the officer you had a FID for no reason?


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Maryland has been/is "data mining" constantly.  This involves millions of dollars of high tech computer equipment and connection to every database other states allow them to search.  The case mentioned in the prior post was not a NJ resident, is was a Florida resident traveling through Maryland on his way to visit relatives in NJ.  He has a Florida resident CCW and Maryland knew this from running his plate through their data base.  Believing he was carrying, they where out to get him.  It didn't work, he knew better and left it home.
Ignore my last post.

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7 hours ago, Spawne32 said:

As much as I hate the "captain america" self righteous super cop attitude of alot of them out there, its always a good idea to use common sense when in an encounter with the police. You have rights, yes, but anything you can do that can de-escalate the situation and make them more calm, lessens the risk of you getting shot/tazed etc. You can yell about your rights all you want but if you got a trigger happy cop it wont make a difference once he starts shooting. While me or my brother have never been pulled over with weapons in the car either transporting from the store or going to the range, even if I did get pulled over, I would still inform the officer that I had them in the car and let him make the judgement call of what hes most comfortable with. The minute you start catching an attitude is when you have a problem. There are plenty of reasonable steps that don't diminish the fact that you have rights, that one can take to keep everyone calm. Being well spoken, respectful and calm, while still being smart about the encounter is the best way to go.

i'm sure you know my opinions of police from other of my posts....but.......this is stupid. NEVER volunteer information that the officer doesn't need. if they ask you, don't lie. but don't volunteer. that information. ever. this is from a guy that was too stupid to know when not to talk when he was young and dumb.

7 hours ago, NJLEFTY said:

Heard Maryland is famous for this. Heard of one case they pulled over a NJ resident and his family who were on their way for a family vacation officers made them all get out of the car and searched every inch of their car and bags because he had a NJ FID  card and kept asking him where his guns were just because he was from out of state.

i heard similar concerning someone from a free state that had a ccw......which apparently showed up when an alpr read their plate.....

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7 hours ago, Spawne32 said:

As much as I hate the "captain america" self righteous super cop attitude of alot of them out there, its always a good idea to use common sense when in an encounter with the police. You have rights, yes, but anything you can do that can de-escalate the situation and make them more calm, lessens the risk of you getting shot/tazed etc. You can yell about your rights all you want but if you got a trigger happy cop it wont make a difference once he starts shooting. While me or my brother have never been pulled over with weapons in the car either transporting from the store or going to the range, even if I did get pulled over, I would still inform the officer that I had them in the car and let him make the judgement call of what hes most comfortable with. The minute you start catching an attitude is when you have a problem. There are plenty of reasonable steps that don't diminish the fact that you have rights, that one can take to keep everyone calm. Being well spoken, respectful and calm, while still being smart about the encounter is the best way to go.

Almost every cop will tell you the following axiom:  If they are planning on arresting you, nothing you say will talk them out of it.  However, if they are not planning on arresting you, you can easily talk them into it.

Keep your mouth shut.  Don't lie but don't volunteer any information.   Nothing is gained by letting them make a judgment call.  Their judgement is often, arrest and let the judge figure it out. 

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Almost every cop will tell you the following axiom:  If they are planning on arresting you, nothing you say will talk them out of it.  However, if they are not planning on arresting you, you can easily talk them into it.
Keep your mouth shut.  Don't lie but don't volunteer any information.   Nothing is gained by letting them make a judgment call.  Their judgement is often, arrest and let the judge figure it out. 
Never ever volunteer any information to the police. I'm starting to think those pre printed statements from cop block or one of the other organizations maybe the best route. Especially in Maryland. They do not care about PBA cards, they don't even give professional courtesy for NJSP family member metal gold cards. Best to avoid Maryland. It has always been one large speed trap now they are vying for the title of most Anti-2A State in America and Baltimore I think holds the title for most corrupt police department in America.

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On 1/8/2018 at 9:49 AM, PK90 said:
On 1/8/2018 at 9:38 AM, 1LtCAP said:
tint can absolutely be a safety factor. i dunno bout you guys, but i have a helluva time seeing outta tinted window s once the sun's gone down

Still. Not against the law.

Is there a way her lawyers can use this as a defense to get her case thrown out? Illegal stop maybe? Would be great if this was the case. Doubt it though

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1 hour ago, NJLEFTY said:

Is there a way her lawyers can use this as a defense to get her case thrown out? Illegal stop maybe? Would be great if this was the case. Doubt it though

i quoted the statute on the last page. it was not an illegal stop per the statute.

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i quoted the statute on the last page. it was not an illegal stop per the statute.

That is old case law. Did you look for any recent case law because according to the case law you quoted from 1979 and 1989 the reason for the stop is to ascertain registration and residency. With computers today they should be able to do so without actually stopping the vehicle thus the case law would not apply and it could be a good case for new case law to be created. So yes it could be argued that the stop was unwarranted and the case then thrown out.

 

 

The second part is seeing a CCW should not be probable cause for a search. If the woman did not give permission to search or gave permission under duress there is a possibility of getting the search thrown out. The duress argument would be a long shot.

 

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I spoke with Donna via email about a week ago after donating to her lawyer. She took my advise and switched lawyers to Even Napen and she has also spoken with Shaneen Allen regarding the outcome of her case. This is a good woman with no prior trouble as well as a veteran of the armed forces being treated like a common criminal and it's disgusting. While she did unknowingly break the law the punishment does not fit her crime and what the state is doing is criminal.

She is trying to raise enough to pay the lawyer fees for the start of the process and is far from that goal. I advised her to contact the NRA because she is a member but it's u likely they will do much for her except to use her story in their publications to solicit more eye for themselves. The GOA.and the NJ2A foundation was her next stop and hopefully they can somehow help.

I'm not much for E begging a d crowd funding but this case is special to me as well as all gun owners in and around the states that would imprison law abiding citizens for practicing our supposed federally protected 2nd Amendment rights.

Check out the pictures in the link of her supposed tint and rearview mirror obstruction that a traffic office happened to notice at 8:30 PM while she was moving.

Donate and share with your online social media community.

https://www.gofundme.com/donna-gracey-nj-weapon-defence

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

i'm sure you know my opinions of police from other of my posts....but.......this is stupid. NEVER volunteer information that the officer doesn't need. if they ask you, don't lie. but don't volunteer. that information. ever. this is from a guy that was too stupid to know when not to talk when he was young and dumb.

i heard similar concerning someone from a free state that had a ccw......which apparently showed up when an alpr read their plate.....

Volunteering information is not the same as admitting guilt in my eyes. If you are carrying weapons on your person or in the vehicle, legally, you should have no reason why volunteering that information would harm you. That's just my opinion on it.

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1 hour ago, 1LtCAP said:

you apparently lack the depth of the anti-gun sentiment in nj.

Lol I understand the depth of it full well, trust me. Perhaps I am hopelessly optimistic that a cop could behave like a human being if you behave like one in kind but that's just me. If you are a legal gun owner I don't see why you should fear telling an officer that there is a weapon in the car if you know you are following the law to the letter. Cops are already under the presumption that every time they pull a person over, they run the risk of being shot at, why not alleviate that tension from the get go and show that you are more then cooperative? Rather then something going south with the stop and THEN they find out there is a weapon in the car. Common sense actions like having both your front windows down, keeping your hands where they can see them, and not making any sudden fast movements towards anything in the car can save you from getting a bullet put in you. You won't be in a position to argue what rights you HAD after you get a clip unloaded into you from a trigger happy rookie, but you could argue them in a court of law after the fact if you use common sense.

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45 minutes ago, Spawne32 said:

Lol I understand the depth of it full well, trust me. Perhaps I am hopelessly optimistic that a cop could behave like a human being if you behave like one in kind but that's just me.

Not in much of NJ...  and not when it comes to a citizen's RKBA in their (LEOs') presence.  In places where carry has been legal for some time, I might agree with you.  A good many LEOs here in FL *are* those human beings when it comes to others having firearms in their presence. Not in NJ... where most LEOs (especially those closer to the inner cities) believe that only they should be armed and no one else should be.  And who use intimidation tactics to get their way in re: encounters with citizens, even if the citizen is well within their rights.... especially then, actually.

The fear one has in re: volunteering that information is (at best), is being disarmed and having the weapon seized (even if temporarily for the duration of the stop), and then having it returned disassembled (field stripped, etc.).  At worst, having the weapon confiscated for some trumped up reason (or even you being arrested).  Until that no longer happens, we will defend our rights and not volunteer info if we don't have to. Again, as other have said, if asked, we should tell the truth, but never "volunteer."

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6 minutes ago, HBecwithFn7 said:

Not in much of NJ...  and not when it comes to a citizen's RKBA in their (LEOs') presence.  In places where carry has been legal for some time, I might agree with you.  A good many LEOs here in FL *are* those human beings when it comes to others having firearms in their presence. Not in NJ... where most LEOs (especially those closer to the inner cities) believe that only they should be armed and no one else should be.  And who use intimidation tactics to get their way in re: encounters with citizens, even if the citizen is well within their rights.... especially then, actually.

The fear one has in re: volunteering that information is (at best), is being disarmed and having the weapon seized (even if temporarily for the duration of the stop), and then having it returned disassembled (field stripped, etc.).  At worst, having the weapon confiscated for some trumped up reason (or even you being arrested).  Until that no longer happens, we will defend our rights and not volunteer info if we don't have to. Again, as other have said, if asked, we should tell the truth, but never "volunteer."

Well I agree with you, but its just my policy I follow when it comes to traffic stops, but I can understand your position on it.

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11 hours ago, Malsua said:

Almost every cop will tell you the following axiom:  If they are planning on arresting you, nothing you say will talk them out of it.  However, if they are not planning on arresting you, you can easily talk them into it.

Keep your mouth shut.  Don't lie but don't volunteer any information.   Nothing is gained by letting them make a judgment call.  Their judgement is often, arrest and let the judge figure it out. 

Be respectful, keep your hands where the LEO can see them, no fast moves, inform LEO if you are going into your pockets or glove box for documents, make sure every response ends with "Sir" and as short as possible.

But most important:  STFU

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1 minute ago, leahcim said:

" make sure every response ends with "Sir"

That's a bridge too far!       They work for me i.e. John Q. Taxpayer, if they wish to call me sir, that's their option.  I'm not in the habit of saying sir to my employees.

I will say that you should avoid the use of "Boss".   It is a common term that inmates call Correctional Officers and can indicate to the LEO that you are a prior visitor to a correctional facility and might possibly are worthy of additional scrutiny.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Spawne32 said:

Lol I understand the depth of it full well, trust me. Perhaps I am hopelessly optimistic that a cop could behave like a human being if you behave like one in kind but that's just me. If you are a legal gun owner I don't see why you should fear telling an officer that there is a weapon in the car if you know you are following the law to the letter. Cops are already under the presumption that every time they pull a person over, they run the risk of being shot at, why not alleviate that tension from the get go and show that you are more then cooperative? Rather then something going south with the stop and THEN they find out there is a weapon in the car. Common sense actions like having both your front windows down, keeping your hands where they can see them, and not making any sudden fast movements towards anything in the car can save you from getting a bullet put in you. You won't be in a position to argue what rights you HAD after you get a clip unloaded into you from a trigger happy rookie, but you could argue them in a court of law after the fact if you use common sense.

I have NEVER had LEO ask to search my car on a traffic stop EVER.  I can remember one time where the LEO was really P.O.ed because I was driving pretty fast (I was young and stupid).  Another time I made a sarcastic remark (it was 3AM and I had just pulled an all-nighter at work) and the guy made me follow him to the station.  Never ever asked for consent to search.

That being said, if I am transporting a firearm IAW NJ law, there is no need to mention them.  Read Blue Tent Sky and you will see that, unfortunately, some LEOs are not well versed in NJ gun law; and there are at least a few who may try to trick or coerce you into a consent-search.  Problem is, you don't know if the one pulling you over is the one who is going to behave like a human being, or the 1% who is trying to screw you.

Be respectful, follow Chris Rock's tips on "How not to get your ass kicked by the police," but don't volunteer anything that they are not asking and is not compelled by law.

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3 minutes ago, Malsua said:

That's a bridge too far!       They work for me i.e. John Q. Taxpayer, if they wish to call me sir, that's their option.  I'm not in the habit of saying sir to my employees.

I will say that you should avoid the use of "Boss".   It is a common term that inmates call Correctional Officers and can indicate to the LEO that you are a prior visitor to a correctional facility and might possibly are worthy of additional scrutiny.

 

 

If it would give me a better chance of not getting a ticket, I will call the LEO anything they want.  I know they work for us, and law enforcement is just we the people delegating the enforcement of our common rights to--which we have every legal right to protect and enforce ourselves.  But if I can say a few easy words of respect and (usually) I drive away with a stern warning, I have no problem with that.  And they are putting their lives on the line to protect our legal rights after all.

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38 minutes ago, leahcim said:

I have NEVER had LEO ask to search my car on a traffic stop EVER.  I can remember one time where the LEO was really P.O.ed because I was driving pretty fast (I was young and stupid).  Another time I made a sarcastic remark (it was 3AM and I had just pulled an all-nighter at work) and the guy made me follow him to the station.  Never ever asked for consent to search.

That being said, if I am transporting a firearm IAW NJ law, there is no need to mention them.  Read Blue Tent Sky and you will see that, unfortunately, some LEOs are not well versed in NJ gun law; and there are at least a few who may try to trick or coerce you into a consent-search.  Problem is, you don't know if the one pulling you over is the one who is going to behave like a human being, or the 1% who is trying to screw you.

Be respectful, follow Chris Rock's tips on "How not to get your ass kicked by the police," but don't volunteer anything that they are not asking and is not compelled by law.

I haven't looked into it but aren't they allowed to do warrant-less searches under various laws if they have reasonable suspicion to do so?

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45 minutes ago, Spawne32 said:

I haven't looked into it but aren't they allowed to do warrant-less searches under various laws if they have reasonable suspicion to do so?

You havent been around the block enough i see.  No offense.  But you have alot to learn. Germany.  Ww2. Thats how it got millions killed

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17 hours ago, Spawne32 said:

Volunteering information is not the same as admitting guilt in my eyes. If you are carrying weapons on your person or in the vehicle, legally, you should have no reason why volunteering that information would harm you. That's just my opinion on it.

But why even mention it?  Do you go out of your way to mention every object in the car that you can bludgeon or stab someone with?  Why not? What's the difference?  Bringing it up without being asked is just taking the chance that you're dealing with one of the small number of officers who would love nothing more than to drag you to jail.

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When I took my Florida CWFL class it was taught by a Deputy Sheriff.  The question came up to inform or not. He felt as a deputy he didn't want to know.  He felt if he's stopping a car for a traffic violation that's what the stops about.  If a police officer wants you out of the car now the stop is a whole different level. That's a good time to inform the officer. If your weapon is in your glove box with your paperwork inform before reaching for that paperwork or you will find yourself out of the car very fast via the window or worse.  Best thing Is be prepared. Hands on the wheel and Name, Rank and serial number.  That's it.

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