NRA backs lawsuit claiming NJ handgun policy is ‘unconstitutional’

[maintenanceguy 510]

In Piscatowski, Filko, Drake, or whatever that case ended up being called, NJ told the court that it is a shall issue state because it approves more than 90% of applications.  Of course, that's because nobody ever applies.  I'm concerned that a similar argument might be made this time too.  Whatever judges hear this case will be looking for any wiggle room to igmore the constitution.  That may be the wiggle room.  

But, this is ANJPRC's case and their attorney's should know if a mass application is needed. If ANJPRC says it's time to apply en masse, I'm in.

[1LtCAP 4,262]

for 2 years

[JohnnyB 4,323]

39 minutes ago, maintenanceguy said:

In Piscatowski, Filko, Drake, or whatever that case ended up being called, NJ told the court that it is a shall issue state because it approves more than 90% of applications.  Of course, that's because nobody ever applies.  I'm concerned that a similar argument might be made this time too.  Whatever judges hear this case will be looking for any wiggle room to igmore the constitution.  That may be the wiggle room.  

But, this is ANJPRC's case and their attorney's should know if a mass application is needed. If ANJPRC says it's time to apply en masse, I'm in.

NJ used to make the shall issue claim many years ago. They have since come out of the closet as a may issue state. Today they even brag about the fact that they are practically a no issue state! With Murphy in, it will become a no issue state on the books and that is when the Feds will jump in and give us CCW once and for all. Murphy will go down in history as doing more for 2a rights than any Governor in our states history because he is a stupid shit that does not know when to stop!

[mossburger 406]

6 minutes ago, JohnnyB said:

NJ used to make the shall issue claim many years ago. They have since come out of the closet as a may issue state. Today they even brag about the fact that they are practically a no issue state! With Murphy in, it will become a no issue state on the books and that is when the Feds will jump in and give us CCW once and for all. Murphy will go down in history as doing more for 2a rights than any Governor in our states history because he is a stupid shit that does not know when to stop!

I respectfully disagree.

I have seen this argument before, essentially that finally they will go too far, and we win! Yeah! Stupid liberals!

I highly doubt that is how it will go. It didn't go that way in CA and NY, and that was almost 5-6 years ago now. 

You're playing by the assumption that everyone plays the same game. That we all sit there and look at laws, and the constitution, and the principles of our founders, or whichever angle you take.

Our opponent don't do that. They see the constitution as a living document. Many of them are outright socialists, communists, post-modernists, etc. Many of them think the founders were slave owning lunatics who were wrong about everything. 

To their supporters, all that matters is the agenda. And to their voters who don't own guns, who live in a crime ridden area, who come from a country where no one has guns, what do they care if you can't own this or do that? No difference to them.

And guess who makes up the majority of the voters here? 

[gleninjersey 2,139]

3 hours ago, JC_68Westy said:

I hear what you are saying, but there are no metrics to back up your statement.

All they would have to do is bring 25 people to take the stand and ask them under oath, "Mr Smith, I'm told you would like to apply to a conceal cary permit in NJ.  Why haven't you?"  

Mr. Smith would simply say, "Because I know I will be denied, why bother".  Do that 25 times over and over agains for a few hours and then tell the judge that you have 500 peopl who will swear under oath to the same.  How much time would they like to waste?......

[JohnnyB 4,323]

24 minutes ago, mossburger said:

I respectfully disagree.

I have seen this argument before, essentially that finally they will go too far, and we win! Yeah! Stupid liberals!

I highly doubt that is how it will go. It didn't go that way in CA and NY, and that was almost 5-6 years ago now. 

You're playing by the assumption that everyone plays the same game. That we all sit there and look at laws, and the constitution, and the principles of our founders, or whichever angle you take.

Our opponent don't do that. They see the constitution as a living document. Many of them are outright socialists, communists, post-modernists, etc. Many of them think the founders were slave owning lunatics who were wrong about everything. 

To their supporters, all that matters is the agenda. And to their voters who don't own guns, who live in a crime ridden area, who come from a country where no one has guns, what do they care if you can't own this or do that? No difference to them.

And guess who makes up the majority of the voters here? 

The face of the Federal Courts is changing! Soon, the courts will lean conservative and judgements will go our way for a change!

Mark my words!

[gleninjersey 2,139]

13 hours ago, John Willett said:

For those interested in an analysis of the concealed carry litigation environment by the attorney who filed ANJRPC's challenge:

 

Two years ago, in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U. S. ___, this Court held that the Second Amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense and struck down a District of Columbia law that banned the possession of handguns in the home.  (McDonald vs Chicago)

Give the video a listen.  This guy is going to tear NJ a new one!  

[1LtCAP 4,262]

1 hour ago, JohnnyB said:

NJ used to make the shall issue claim many years ago. They have since come out of the closet as a may issue state. Today they even brag about the fact that they are practically a no issue state! With Murphy in, it will become a no issue state on the books and that is when the Feds will jump in and give us CCW once and for all. Murphy will go down in history as doing more for 2a rights than any Governor in our states history because he is a stupid shit that does not know when to stop!

may issue is on paper only. most people i talk to from outta state have no clue that nj is no-issue in practice.

[1LtCAP 4,262]

46 minutes ago, gleninjersey said:

Two years ago, in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U. S. ___, this Court held that the Second Amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense and struck down a District of Columbia law that banned the possession of handguns in the home.  (McDonald vs Chicago)

Give the video a listen.  This guy is going to tear NJ a new one!  

i was talking to a customer today that works at the constitution center in philly. when she told me that, i told her "keep doing what you're doing, and teaching these kids about the constitution and bill of rights, 'cause none of em has a clue". her response? "don't get me started on that shit". i've been dealing with her for 5 years. this is the first time i've ever heard her curse, lolol.

 she says school trips to there are just because it gets the kids out of the classroom. she was pretty agitated about it...but she keeps teaching them.

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

34 minutes ago, gleninjersey said:

Two years ago, in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U. S. ___, this Court held that the Second Amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense and struck down a District of Columbia law that banned the possession of handguns in the home.  (McDonald vs Chicago)

Give the video a listen.  This guy is going to tear NJ a new one!  

YES! Frankly, I felt this guy was the highlight of the SAFE conference. After 5 minutes, I was thinking to myself, "this guy is SUPER bright..." Even more important, I could see he reveled in the detailed analysis and the strategy. That might be mind-numbing to some, but it's a critical skill for a great attorney.  

And get a load of his pedigree -  Wharton (one of the top business schools in the country) and a J.D. from Univ of VA School of Law (consistently ranked in the top 10 of U.S. law schools). See his bio here: http://www.hartmanwinnicki.com/attorneys/daniel-schmutter-esq/

What strikes me (aside from the education, and of course impressive wins)... is Speaking Engagements (at the bottom)... where you spend your personal time reveals your passions & this guy is clearly passionate about 2A rights.

Now, I've seen occasional complaints on these forums about whether the 2A groups shouldn't be bringing in "out-of-state" legal talent... well, that may apply to some of the lawyers that have worked on NJ cases, but I don't think it applies to this guy. After seeing his presentation, I was personally delighted to see his name on the lawsuit.  IMO, Schmutter's no schmuck! 

[Downtownv 1,774]

On Behalf of Every NJ Gunowner,We all have an obligation to go and apply, be denied and join this massive lawsuit. I am sure they would like to have every denied resident behind them.

With UT, ME and FL permits for the past 5 years just what could there be a reason for denial?

I am going to start with getting the application from my PD.

I have always wanted to do this and too many talked me out of it. WTF do you have to lose?

 

I will contact the APP reporter and they will come with me.

 

If not now?

 

WHEN?

 

 

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

1 hour ago, Downtownv said:

On Behalf of Every NJ Gunowner,We all have an obligation to go and apply, be denied and join this massive lawsuit. I am sure they would like to have every denied resident behind them.

With UT, ME and FL permits for the past 5 years just what could there be a reason for denial?

I am going to start with getting the application from my PD.

I have always wanted to do this and too many talked me out of it. WTF do you have to lose?

 

I will contact the APP reporter and they will come with me.

 

If not now?

 

WHEN?

 

 

@Downtownv

WHOA!!! You can't just "join" someone's lawsuit, can you? I don't think that's how it works. You have to be invited. We've FINALLY got a legitimate 2A org, with NRA backing, and a winning attorney...filing a serious lawsuit... is this really the time to willy-nilly start going it alone? And then giving out that "legal" advice to everyone else??!! Pull in the reins, pls!

• What if the AP reporter manipulates the story and uses it against you/the case?
• What if you realize they had a better reporter they could have recommended... if you had only asked?
• What if they APPROVE a handful of these new applications, use it as a way to weaken the larger case, and then later, find a way to yank the ones they previously approved? Then everyone's screwed!

I mean, you're a free citizen, clearly you can do whatever the hell you want! That's your right. I'm merely asking... why not just reach out and contact them first? I appreciate your passion, I really do. (I mean that! ) But, I'd rather see you acting strategically, rationally and as part of a coordinated approach - for everyone's sake! Just my 2 cents.

[Downtownv 1,774]

Perhaps, Mrs Peel.

Getting an app, might be a good first step, however.

If statewide, that was done enmass, might show the pent up demand... Thoughts?

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

Just now, Downtownv said:

Perhaps, Mrs Peel.

Getting an app, might be a good first step, however.

If statewide, that was done enmass, might show the pent up demand... Thoughts?

Again... I just think you need to pose that question to THEM (ANJRPC). They're the ones with the brainy lawyer, after all... (hey, don't ask me... I'm just a freelance writer in the "peanut gallery" with the rest of you)!! 

Your post just had me kinda chuckling to myself... because, yeah, there IS a lot of pent-up demand, obviously! But, does that mean everyone should suddenly go off half-cocked at such a pivotal time? Sheesh. Let cooler heads prevail, that's all I'm saying. Pick up the phone, send them an email... before you rush in. That's all I'm saying!  

[siderman 1,137]

Mr Schmutter's phone# is in my wallet somewhere as he is my go to lawyer should I ever need that kind of help. I've known about his 2A advocacy for yrs and his office is 5 mins from me.  My fear now is he"ll be too busy to take my call lol.

[Hairless_Ape 76]

On 2/9/2018 at 5:55 AM, Downtownv said:

Where's Mr TOO important, Celebrity Lawyer Evan Nappen?

 

MIA?

 

Can't make yourself rich and famous here?

 

 

 

I'm sure he's off in a corner somewhere throwing a temper tantrum because the status quo he loves so dearly is being threatened.

[siderman 1,137]

Just a note on Nappen, he chairs the legal affairs committee at ANJRPC.   I imagine he has a hand in what's going on.

[capt14k 2,052]

 
I'm sure he's off in a corner somewhere throwing a temper tantrum because the status quo he loves so dearly is being threatened.

So glad that turd isn't on the legal team.


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[capt14k 2,052]

[mention=4503]Downtownv[/mention]

WHOA!!! You can't just "join" someone's lawsuit, can you? I don't think that's how it works. You have to be invited. We've FINALLY got a legitimate 2A org, with NRA backing, and a winning attorney...filing a serious lawsuit... is this really the time to willy-nilly start going it alone? And then giving out that "legal" advice to everyone else??!! Pull in the reins, pls!

• What if the AP reporter manipulates the story and uses it against you/the case?
• What if you realize they had a better reporter they could have recommended... if you had only asked?
• What if they APPROVE a handful of these new applications, use it as a way to weaken the larger case, and then later, find a way to yank the ones they previously approved? Then everyone's screwed!

I mean, you're a free citizen, clearly you can do whatever the hell you want! That's your right. I'm merely asking... why not just reach out and contact them first? I appreciate your passion, I really do. (I mean that! [emoji4]) But, I'd rather see you acting strategically, rationally and as part of a coordinated approach - for everyone's sake! Just my 2 cents.

 

There is no reason to have to ask them if you can apply. They have already asked for people who have been denied to contact them. It is a right I believe I am being denied but I won't know for sure until I apply and get rejected. I'd rather hedge my bets and have a denial and hope I am asked to join the lawsuit so they have more people unjustly denied. I too have carry permits in UT, FL, and NH. I also previously had a carry permit in SC.

 

 

Although the lawsuit has already been filed, ANJRPC requests that anyone recently denied a carry permit in New Jersey contact us ASAP at [email protected].

 

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[voyager9 3,434]

2 minutes ago, capt14k said:

 

There is no reason to have to ask them if you can apply. They have already asked for people who have been denied to contact them. It is a right I believe I am being denied but I won't know for sure until I apply and get rejected. I'd rather hedge my bets and have a denial and hope I am asked to join the lawsuit so they have more people unjustly denied. I too have carry permits in UT, FL, and NH. I also previously had a carry permit in SC.


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I don’t think anyone is saying you can’t, or shouldn’t, apply. But if you’re going to make a show of it for the benefit of this lawsuit then you should coordinate with those folks to make sure it aligns with their overall strategy. 

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

5 minutes ago, capt14k said:

 

There is no reason to have to ask them if you can apply. They have already asked for people who have been denied to contact them. It is a right I believe I am being denied but I won't know for sure until I apply and get rejected. I'd rather hedge my bets and have a denial and hope I am asked to join the lawsuit so they have more people unjustly denied. I too have carry permits in UT, FL, and NH. I also previously had a carry permit in SC.


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My concern is more related to: hey, and I'll bring a reporter! I can see that going badly 50 different ways. I also don't think people should assume they'll be added to the case. Lawyers add plaintiffs to a case based on 100 different factors - I don't want to see anyone feeling (unreasonably) angry or disappointed if they're not added. I think that's reasonable!

[capt14k 2,052]

I don’t think anyone is saying you can’t, or shouldn’t, apply. But if you’re going to make a show of it for the benefit of this lawsuit then you should coordinate with those folks to make sure it aligns with their overall strategy. 

 

That I can agree with. I don't plan on making a show of it. However I did send an email anyways.

 

 

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My concern is more related to: hey, and I'll bring a reporter! I can see that going badly 50 different ways. I also don't think people should assume they'll be added to the case. Lawyers add plaintiffs to a case based on 100 different factors - I don't want to see anyone feeling (unreasonably) angry or disappointed if they're not added. I think that's reasonable!

 

I agree. I won't be bringing a reporter. I am hedging my bets and hoping I do get added just in case NJ issues CCW to everyone who is part of the case to end standing and the lawsuit. It does make sense to have as many as possible to be part of the suit in order to counter NJ strategy used in past cases.

 

 

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[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

6 minutes ago, capt14k said:

I agree. I won't be bringing a reporter. I am hedging my bets and hoping I do get added just in case NJ issues CCW to everyone who is part of the case to end standing and the lawsuit.

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I'm no lawyer, but I suspect this is why they used the wording about representing "10's of thousands of gun owners who would apply..." I suspect they're making it harder for NJ to just make the case go away... or at least they have a related "phase 2" planned. I could be wrong.

In any event... I wish you luck!

[capt14k 2,052]

I'm no lawyer, but I suspect this is why they used the wording about representing "10's of thousands of gun owners who would apply..." I suspect they're making it harder for NJ to just make the case go away... or at least they have a related "phase 2" planned. I could be wrong.
In any event... I wish you luck!

Saying they are representing and actual standing are two different things. If you have never applied you right to carry has never been denied. Restricted out of fear maybe.


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[voyager9 3,434]

15 minutes ago, capt14k said:

. I won't be bringing a reporter. 

Just wear a GoPro on your head when you apply and show up for your hearing

[Downtownv 1,774]

Once again, I am pleased to have started a thread that inspires thought and encourages open discussion.

Remember the Colonists didn't agree 100% on everything and often had bitter debates and even resentments.

Thank all of you, for your input.

I value your thoughts and opinions. Together we can right this wrong!

 

[1LtCAP 4,262]

1 hour ago, voyager9 said:

Just wear a GoPro on your head when you apply and show up for your hearing

nah...go covert. there's plenty available in the way of hidden cameras to record covertly. you'll get a better view of the bs they try too.

[voyager9 3,434]

1 minute ago, 1LtCAP said:

nah...go covert. there's plenty available in the way of hidden cameras to record covertly. you'll get a better view of the bs they try too.

I was thinking that being unsubtle would be interesting. What do they say when they know they’re on camera?

to your point, the reality is that the bailiff or whatever would simply bar you from the room until you remove it

[1LtCAP 4,262]

they can't make you remove that which they do not know you have......

[CAL. .30 M1 2,101]

2 hours ago, capt14k said:

I agree. I won't be bringing a reporter. I am hedging my bets and hoping I do get added just in case NJ issues CCW to everyone who is part of the case to end standing and the lawsuit. It does make sense to have as many as possible to be part of the suit in order to counter NJ strategy used in past cases.

 

That of which I embolden above is the potential pitfall of all this and is a very possible outcome - I however am not applying for something where I know I will be denied and that denial can travel with you.  that's just me and some may say it is not an issue, but *IS* there an issue with it?  Especially if you now move out of state etc. or refile with other states etc.  Dunno....wouldbe nice to know the pitfalls of the denial in NJ and what ramifications there may be with said denial.