JackDaWack

Need a new Deck

59 posts in this topic

 

50 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

We have probably 50 or so big blue pavers that we're going to create a patio underneath. I looked into the trex membrane for a drainage system to waterproof the area, and similar water-proof membrane products. THAT, seems like a very tedious job. 

 

No kidding! I did the same thing LOL. Got mine from the stone/patio place on 23. Big blue stone pieces on pallets, then cut into manageable pieces and laid in QP/Stone dust vs cement. We used that polymeric stone dust for the seams, and it looks great! Beats the snot out of the hand poured asphalt that was there originally. 

I am enclosing mine as storage, complete with garage door on the short side facing the yard. In order to do that, I needed an additional permit from Sussex County Health Dept to make sure I wasn't covering septic tanks, cleanouts, field, etc (I wasn't).

The trex drainage system is a tedious job, but kinda cool.  It required sliding around on a sheet or two of plywood while looking down between the joists, I was 8' above grade, 30' cliff behind that. Then unrolling, tucking, cutting, stapling, caulking and taping then rinse/repeat for each bay. Probably a days work once everything was purchased and set up. It self pitches, and only needs to go out past the beam to be effective, then drains into a funnel in each bay that fits between the joists.

Here's a quick video link, these guys are in a shop, on the ground, makes it look SO easy LOL.

I am adding gutter/downspouts to redirect it out past the deck. It makes the deck work a little tougher, since you can't see the joists too well for clip placement, and one slip of the foot into a bay with the membrane installed means a repair or a redo. I was fortunate, and careful. After a few rows of deck boards go up, it gets way easier.

What's great about this system, versus the dry deck system is that the trex material unrolls OVER each joist, forms a half pipe as you go, and when all done the trex boards go OVER that. basically, after the taping and caulking and stapling is done correctly, no water gets past that, keeping the joists dry as a bone. The other systems allow water to drain past the deck boards, soak the joists, and drain out via a gutter system while making a nice ceiling. ;)

I did notice a bit of a flaw in this system but not a huge deal. Condensation forms under the membrane (patio side) when it's cold on top and warmer below. I don't think that can be helped. Not that you'll be hanging out on the patio in 30 degree weather too often, but it is something I noticed this winter. During a rain storm, I can stand under the deck and be completely dry. Yesterday, some of the condensation was dripping on to the floor. No flood, but a few damp spots here and there. I'll probably put in a ceiling of PVC bead board or something, and that, with the airflow from the rim joist inward, should keep any moisture at bay. For the walls that I framed in, most likely cement board or mold resistant sheet rock.

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Barms said:

If you want to be really hip and cool,  don’t attach the deck to the hose with a ledger anymore.   Freestanding decks are all the rage if you read most DIY construction chat rooms.   Yes you need more footers but the new wisdom is don’t fasten it to the house.  You leave a small gap for water/snow etc.

The guy that installed our Trex deck in 1992 attached the ledger board to the house's rim joist and he did not leave anywhere for the water to go. 

In 2002, the rim joist under the kitchen sagged and cracked off the house foundation when we had about 36 inches of snow on the deck, settling our kitchen on one side by about 5 inches.

That summer, I put two pressure treated 2x10s under the old rim joist and jacked the house up.

In 2017, we tore off the kitchen and rebuilt it.   What was left of the original ledger board was removed a claw hammer.  Poor drainage is going to cost me around 70k.  That said, the kitchen is turning out great!  Still not done yet, but we're working on it.

You can see the rotted rim joist next to the deck towards the end of this video.

 

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OUCH! Well, the silver lining is you get a new kitchen, right? ;) That is next on my (wife's) list. LOL

My other neighbor's deck was pitched toward the house, and somebody got the bright idea to caulk all the spaces between the deck boards many moons ago. That ledger, and subsequent header inside the walls was completely rotted, and was a HUGE job to replace (empty foreclosure for 5+ years)

The old ledger on our deck wasn't terrible, but there was runoff under the slider and it rotted pretty much everything under it. The way I did the flashing this time was 6" under the siding, bent 90 degrees to run along the top of the joists about 3" from the house. Then you slide that trex membrane under the flashing, tape, caulk, etc. That way, nothing gets beneath it, runoff goes into the membrane. You need to go up that high behind the siding so there is no chance of blowback under the flashing in a noreaster or something. Worked on my deck, no drips on the ledger board. 

During a downpour, it is kind of cool to look up and see the water flowing down to the funnels and going bye bye.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Sir Drake said:

OUCH! Well, the silver lining is you get a new kitchen, right? ;) That is next on my (wife's) list. LOL

My other neighbor's deck was pitched toward the house, and somebody got the bright idea to caulk all the spaces between the deck boards many moons ago. That ledger, and subsequent header inside the walls was completely rotted, and was a HUGE job to replace (empty foreclosure for 5+ years)

The old ledger on our deck wasn't terrible, but there was runoff under the slider and it rotted pretty much everything under it. The way I did the flashing this time was 6" under the siding, bent 90 degrees to run along the top of the joists about 3" from the house. Then you slide that trex membrane under the flashing, tape, caulk, etc. That way, nothing gets beneath it, runoff goes into the membrane. You need to go up that high behind the siding so there is no chance of blowback under the flashing in a noreaster or something. Worked on my deck, no drips on the ledger board. 

During a downpour, it is kind of cool to look up and see the water flowing down to the funnels and going bye bye.

 

 

Freeze and thaw. And capillary action. And snow damning

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2 hours ago, Sir Drake said:

OUCH! Well, the silver lining is you get a new kitchen, right? ;) That is next on my (wife's) list. LOL

 

 

Yeah, it's actually turning out great. Not only all the extra space, as we went from a 10'x12' to a 16'x22' with a 14 foot cathedral ceiling but it's well insulated now and the pipes are protected from freezing which was always a problem before.

My whole point to the thread was to serve as a cautionary tale about proper flashing and water management.   Do it right or it will cost you in the long run.

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Malsua said:

Yeah, it's actually turning out great. Not only all the extra space, as we went from a 10'x12' to a 16'x22' with a 14 foot cathedral ceiling but it's well insulated now and the pipes are protected from freezing which was always a problem before.

My whole point to the thread was to serve as a cautionary tale about proper flashing and water management.   Do it right or it will cost you in the long run.

 

 

Of this entire project the flashing has me worried the most, getting it right that is. I just need to watch some videos. Can't imagine the nightmare rotting the rim joist would be...

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I picked up my permit application, and apparently I have to make the plans myself. Unfortunately, those deck building programs seem to utilize the lowest standard for code, which is fine, but I'm not doing 8 footings, and they won't allow me to add over hangs, reduce # of footings or change joist size to increase joist span per footing. 

Luckily they gave me a deck packet with the diagrams I need to draw. Which is less work then I thought. I'm going to scan and upload them and add in my specs. I can use the program results for the top half of the deck tho. 

Its kinda funny that they don't want profession plans for homeowner completed jobs. Not that I'm gonna complain. 

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1 hour ago, JackDaWack said:

I picked up my permit application, and apparently I have to make the plans myself. Unfortunately, those deck building programs seem to utilize the lowest standard for code, which is fine, but I'm not doing 8 footings, and they won't allow me to add over hangs, reduce # of footings or change joist size to increase joist span per footing.

Just curious, how many footings do you have Now? Was it the program that suggested 8 and you need more/less?

What do you mean about no overhangs, past the beam or on the short sides?

Joist size and span? like going up to a 2×10 vs 2×8 and make them longer?

As an aside, someone mentioned the spacing o.c. for composites. Just speaking for trex, 16" o.c. is acceptable for right angle layouts. I believe the o.c. was 12" if the pattern is diagonal or Herringbone. Not sure about other brands. I don't notice any sagging or bouncing at 16 o.c. horizontal pattern.

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17 minutes ago, Sir Drake said:

Just curious, how many footings do you have Now? Was it the program that suggested 8 and you need more/less?

What do you mean about no overhangs, past the beam or on the short sides?

Joist size and span? like going up to a 2×10 vs 2×8 and make them longer?

As an aside, someone mentioned the spacing o.c. for composites. Just speaking for trex, 16" o.c. is acceptable for right angle layouts. I believe the o.c. was 12" if the pattern is diagonal or Herringbone. Not sure about other brands. I don't notice any sagging or bouncing at 16 o.c. horizontal pattern.

Our trex deck is at right angles and 12" on center.   I can feel enough flex in it if I'm paying attention that I wouldn't be comfortable with 16" on center.   In the end, you're talking 5 more joists over a 20 foot span, material cost might be an extra $125 bucks.  For a 10k plus project, that strikes me as a no brainer and a trivial upgrade.   The trex these days probably is better than what I have since ours is over 25 years old but it's still held up just fine.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Malsua said:

Our trex deck is at right angles and 12" on center.   I can feel enough flex in it if I'm paying attention that I wouldn't be comfortable with 16" on center.   In the end, you're talking 5 more joists over a 20 foot span, material cost might be an extra $125 bucks.  For a 10k plus project, that strikes me as a no brainer and a trivial upgrade.   The trex these days probably is better than what I have since ours is over 25 years old but it's still held up just fine.

 

 

Agreed, closer can't hurt, and cost isn't that much different in the scheme of things to go 12" vs 16". 

The current trex is a different design that the 1st gen trex. IIRC it's PVC wrapped composite today. Not sure if it is any stronger structurally though.   

Malsua, you say it held up just fine, that's good to hear. When I was researching, I saw plenty of bad press and trex lawsuits for mold and wear, fade, etc. Scary stuff, and lots of squeaky wheels looking for grease I suppose. I did notice most of that was the original trex, however some people still bitched about the new stuff too.

So far, I like the way this line (transcend) is looking and holding up, although to be honest it has only been less than a year LOL.

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I have had to power wash it every few years as it gets dirty, but other than that, there's nothing really to complain about.  It really doesn't have a uniform color, just sorta a mishmash of greys, greens and mauve  I have not seen any mold, and fade?  What does that even mean?   It looks faded to begin with.   Wear?   No, nothing has worn.    As far as it goes, I would definitely do it again as it is about as maintenance free as you can get and I've never gotten splinters from it.   I know someone up thread complained about heat and I have been known to spray it down on super hot days, but it's such a non issue for me.  

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Current design is 14x20' 

3 footings, 16"diameter, 12' from Ledger. 8' Span between posts  (It's actually better than 4, 12")

https://build.decksgo.com/build/calculators/deck-load-calculator.php

2-2x12 for the beam, but 3-2x10 would be stronger.

Joists are 2x10's 12" OC

The deck will have 2 feet over hangs all the way around.

 

I tried the Trex website and I couldnt do anything with overhangs, or change joist and beam sizes. It's not a problem. I'm just drafting it all by hand on graph paper, I've been copying the diagrams out of the 2015 IRC that I'm using and the Trex website put together all of railings for me. 

I'm gonna being doing it in sections, once the weather gets warm I'm going to start the footings, then I have all July to put it together. 

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Well what an absolute pain in the ass applying for permits is. I just went round two with zoning, they stuck me on grading the back yard. Finally accepted the survey, now i'm waiting to hear back from the building dept. hopefully my plans are good enough and i can start the build early spring. 

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45 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

Well what an absolute pain in the ass applying for permits is. I just went round two with zoning, they stuck me on grading the back yard. Finally accepted the survey, now i'm waiting to hear back from the building dept. hopefully my plans are good enough and i can start the build early spring. 

Hopefully they"ll do right by you, some of those officials have a real God complex. one time we had to cut the tops off of some nice fence post newels because they were 3" over the ht restriction, not the fence just the posts. SOBs

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I realize I'm late to this topic but only saw it now.  Almost fell off my chair when I read your original post about the cost estimates.  They are ridiculous! 

I had my old 2nd story 10x10 deck (I live in a 3 story townhouse) replaced about 5 yrs back with a 12x18 deck using just pressure treated wood. 

Total cost for tear down, permits and new construction was like $4500.  I live down in South Jersey and I realize things are more expensive up in the North but DANG!!! 

Good luck with the project, would be interested in seeing pics when you're done if you don't mind sharing...

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The entire project is priced out at 9500 right now, I decided to do the water proof Trex rainescape. That added a pretty penny. 

With a few rentals and some tools I need to buy it's probably gonna be $10500 all said and done. I priced in tax too.

Just the azek railings alone we're around 4k

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19 hours ago, siderman said:

Hopefully they"ll do right by you, some of those officials have a real God complex. one time we had to cut the tops off of some nice fence post newels because they were 3" over the ht restriction, not the fence just the posts. SOBs

I would have done a precise job of cutting and then re-attached with dowels and glue after final inspection.

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9 minutes ago, Malsua said:

I would have done a precise job of cutting and then re-attached with dowels and glue after final inspection.

That option did cross my mind but just squared off the tops and installed some finished flat caps. Was in a front yard, didnt need Mr Ahole driving by later....that didnt bother me so much, still looked nice, but he just couldnt let such a small thing slide. Being a contractor in my former life I couldnt afford gaming the inspectors. And it was my own house, so much for home field advantage...

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I've got a real issue with zoning where it's just aesthetics or arbitrary limits involved.   I am ok with zoning for type, like industrial, commercial, residential and zoning for excesses and safety, like preventing someone from building edge to edge on a lot.  I have a "notch" at the back of my house due to setback.   It still annoys me.    The cost to us for materials to use that space would have been trivial.  It would have been enough to add 50SQ/FT of storage on the first floor, 65SQ/FT on the second floor and made the basement 5 feet longer.  Yes, I use it for the steps but I would have just moved the steps.  That back half was our addition in 2012.landscape2.jpg

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Malsua said:

I've got a real issue with zoning where it's just aesthetics or arbitrary limits involved.   I am ok with zoning for type, like industrial, commercial, residential and zoning for excesses and safety, like preventing someone from building edge to edge on a lot.  I have a "notch" at the back of my house due to setback.   It still annoys me.    The cost to us for materials to use that space would have been trivial.  It would have been enough to add 50SQ/FT of storage on the first floor, 65SQ/FT on the second floor and made the basement 5 feet longer.  Yes, I use it for the steps but I would have just moved the steps.  That back half was our addition in 2012.landscape2.jpg

 

 

agreed, too much  nannyism. Another thing that bugs me, one shutter on windows lol

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That shutter has been on the house for longer than most people have been alive. :).    We're doing something different since we added the kitchen this year.   I'll custom build shutters that are more craftsman style.   Still though, it's only getting one.

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9 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

The entire project is priced out at 9500 right now, I decided to do the water proof Trex rainescape. That added a pretty penny. 

With a few rentals and some tools I need to buy it's probably gonna be $10500 all said and done. I priced in tax too.

Just the azek railings alone we're around 4k

I think you'll like the Trex Rainescape drain system. Based on my experience with it, don't be stingy with the caulk or the tape along the seal points. Also, they make it look so much easier and prettier on the youtube vids than it actually is. It most likely will have dents and twists and a few high spots as you go. But, as long as it looks like a half pipe getting deeper as you move out to the funnels, then it should work as intended, I tested each bay as I went with a quart of water poured onto the trough at the house. It's easier to make modifications at that point. 

BTW, that butyl tape is the stickiest shit on the planet, so watch where you lay it down as you are working. If the edge of the tape roll comes into contact with the trough material when you place it down, it will stick really good and require a good pull to get it off. I used a 18" piece of 2x6 PT over the joists as a lil' tape bench. 

Good luck!

 

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Looks like the stars aligned, having never really done this before I was shocked to see my permits approved in under 24 hours. I've used butyl tape and sealant before. Probably the most miserable tape to be invented but dang is it good. 

I'm planning on renting a dingo, kinda excited for that.

 

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I have far too many tools. If i happen to have something you can use, holla. If you insist on buying, i have some tools in the warehouse for sale, too... but seriously, feel free to borrow crap.. ya break it you buy it, and replace disposables (ie blades) is all. Not a fan of working above my head, otherwise id offer to help.

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9 hours ago, Lambo2936 said:

I have far too many tools. If i happen to have something you can use, holla. If you insist on buying, i have some tools in the warehouse for sale, too... but seriously, feel free to borrow crap.. ya break it you buy it, and replace disposables (ie blades) is all. Not a fan of working above my head, otherwise id offer to help.

Much appreciated, I might only need a few things, but I'm using that as an excuse to buy tools.

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