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Who to Ask for Reliable Advice (Firearms Law)

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We all know NJ gun laws can be very vague and are open to all level of interpretation, especially in the realm of muzzle devices. My question is, who would you confidently ask/contact in order to get reliable answers to ambiguous questions such as the infamous "is this muzzle device legal"?

My first inclination would be to ask a lawyer, so let's start there. Anyone know / use a good one that you would be able to bounce questions off of and get solid info?

Gunsmiths, shop owners, local PD, State PD, all come across my mind as well, but after searching the web, even these individuals seem contradict each other. Are they reliable sources?

For instance, I went to my local shop to ask if a certain comp was legal and he flat out said no even with a letter from the BATF stating it was not a flash hider. He gave me the ol' "pinky test" and claimed the muzzle must not be able to fit your pink inside it so it is a flash hider. I read this test is total bullshit... 

So is there someone you absolutely trust to get a clear answers to questions like muzzle device legality? Or is it pointless trying to get reliable answer here in the great state of New Jersey because of the way the law is written?

 

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19 minutes ago, roxxer69 said:

We all know NJ gun laws can be very vague and are open to all level of interpretation, especially in the realm of muzzle devices. My question is, who would you confidently ask/contact in order to get reliable answers to ambiguous questions such as the infamous "is this muzzle device legal"?

My first inclination would be to ask a lawyer, so let's start there. Anyone know / use a good one that you would be able to bounce questions off of and get solid info?

Gunsmiths, shop owners, local PD, State PD, all come across my mind as well, but after searching the web, even these individuals seem contradict each other. Are they reliable sources?

For instance, I went to my local shop to ask if a certain comp was legal and he flat out said no even with a letter from the BATF stating it was not a flash hider. He gave me the ol' "pinky test" and claimed the muzzle must not be able to fit your pink inside it so it is a flash hider. I read this test is total bullshit... 

So is there someone you absolutely trust to get a clear answers to questions like muzzle device legality? Or is it pointless trying to get reliable answer here in the great state of New Jersey because of the way the law is written?

 

DON'T ask lawyers, cops or gunsmiths Any questions on legality for anything gun related! You would probably get better advice from a shoemaker!

The pinky test is BS. If it is sold as a compensator or brake and the description says nothing about flash mitigation. You are GTG!

PS. The best place  to ask questions is right here on this forum. There are more knowledgeable people here than just about anywhere you could find!:)

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Stay away from gun store commandos, they know bupkis.  Ask here first.  There are a few gun stores who will steer you in the right direction.  Either they post on here, or we will point you toward them.  Pinky sminky test BS again.  

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1 hour ago, roxxer69 said:

We all know NJ gun laws can be very vague and are open to all level of interpretation, especially in the realm of muzzle devices. My question is, who would you confidently ask/contact in order to get reliable answers to ambiguous questions such as the infamous "is this muzzle device legal"?

My first inclination would be to ask a lawyer, so let's start there. Anyone know / use a good one that you would be able to bounce questions off of and get solid info?

Gunsmiths, shop owners, local PD, State PD, all come across my mind as well, but after searching the web, even these individuals seem contradict each other. Are they reliable sources?

For instance, I went to my local shop to ask if a certain comp was legal and he flat out said no even with a letter from the BATF stating it was not a flash hider. He gave me the ol' "pinky test" and claimed the muzzle must not be able to fit your pink inside it so it is a flash hider. I read this test is total bullshit... 

So is there someone you absolutely trust to get a clear answers to questions like muzzle device legality? Or is it pointless trying to get reliable answer here in the great state of New Jersey because of the way the law is written?

 

Call or write to NJSP Det. Sgt. Brett Bloom in Firearms Division.  Sgt. Bloom attended NJSAFECON for the last two years & is VERY helpful answering questions.  He writes the rules, so he oughtta KNOW what they are, lol.  He's a NRA Lifer & on our side :) 

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2 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

Call or write to NJSP Det. Sgt. Brett Bloom in Firearms Division.  Sgt. Bloom attended NJSAFECON for the last two years & is VERY helpful answering questions.  He writes the rules, so he oughtta KNOW what they are, lol.  He's a NRA Lifer & on our side :) 

Good luck calling..

that mailbox is full!

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15 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

Call or write to NJSP Det. Sgt. Brett Bloom in Firearms Division.  Sgt. Bloom attended NJSAFECON for the last two years & is VERY helpful answering questions.  He writes the rules, so he oughtta KNOW what they are, lol.  He's a NRA Lifer & on our side :) 

wait? what rules does he right?

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2 minutes ago, 1LtCAP said:

wait? what rules does he right?

He let the new Mossy Shockwave & Remington toyz be classified as "firearms, long guns" since the pistol grip isn't removable to allow a regular stock.  His creative application of "The Rules" meant that they're legal in NJ...  He doesn't write law, he merely helps to interpret it.  And his voice mailbox must be full with shockwave questions alone, as some retailers won't stock or sell it fearing a change coming down the road.  Still a great guy.  Ask H.E. & he'll say the same!

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Glad I finally registered on this forum. Thanks for all the advice.

I want a Carlson Mini Comp but am too chicken shit to pin one on my gun as it seems to be open for debate. I am trying to find a way to know for certain it is compliant.

@Krdshrk and @Scorpio64 led me to believe it is perfectly legal and other members here have them. I am sure they are annoyed with me clouding the forums with this damn question lol.

Manufacturer website says the Carlson Mini acts and feels like an A2 flash hider which adds concern to me. But then again it says post ban compliant. 

Website here doesn't say it acts like an A2 just looks like an A2.

I also emailed DoubleStar and got a emailed copy of the BATFE letter claiming it's not a flash hider. Letter found here.

Gun store commando said the Comp is absolutely a flash hider and is illegal & letter doesn't mean shit in NJ as we follow our own set of rules? Use your pinky. (What a twat)

So at this point I would like %100 solid assurance it is NJ compliant...but I do not know if it's worth risking a felony charge.

Why I want this comp so bad? After countless hours of research it seems to be a muzzle device that slightly helps muzzle rise (its a .223 so who cares) but is not as loud and annoying as any other comps / brakes. And it's friggen $31.

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Pinky test is not an actual test.  Who's pinky is really the actual size?

Don't get hung up on the legality of it.  You've got the BATFE letter - that's more than enough for me.  There are other comps out there that are a lot more in the grey area.

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1 hour ago, Krdshrk said:

Pinky test is not an actual test.  Who's pinky is really the actual size?

Don't get hung up on the legality of it.  You've got the BATFE letter - that's more than enough for me.  There are other comps out there that are a lot more in the grey area.

Ever hear stories of individuals getting harassed by a range officer, police officer, or some other jerk claiming the muzzle device didn't seem compliant? My fear isn't proving I am innocent, it's just the fear of having to go through the legal procedures, court cases, lawyer fees, proving I am innocent.

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9 hours ago, roxxer69 said:

Ever hear stories of individuals getting harassed by a range officer, police officer, or some other jerk claiming the muzzle device didn't seem compliant? My fear isn't proving I am innocent, it's just the fear of having to go through the legal procedures, court cases, lawyer fees, proving I am innocent.

I never heard of any stories about anyone getting jammed up by a muzzle device. So you would be  the first! Relax, please!:)

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If it will make you feel better, keep a copy of the ATF letter in your range bag.  Problem solved.  There are literally thousands of NJ residents using the mini-comp and I have not heard of one case of someone getting jammed up over it.

You can also call Tom at Howell Gun Works, who is a retired police officer who received a confirmation from NJSP about the comp.

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1 hour ago, roxxer69 said:

Glad I finally registered on this forum. Thanks for all the advice.

I want a Carlson Mini Comp but am too chicken shit to pin one on my gun as it seems to be open for debate. I am trying to find a way to know for certain it is compliant.

@Krdshrk and @Scorpio64 led me to believe it is perfectly legal and other members here have them. I am sure they are annoyed with me clouding the forums with this damn question lol.

Manufacturer website says the Carlson Mini acts and feels like an A2 flash hider which adds concern to me. But then again it says post ban compliant. 

Website here doesn't say it acts like an A2 just looks like an A2.

I also emailed DoubleStar and got a emailed copy of the BATFE letter claiming it's not a flash hider. Letter found here.

Gun store commando said the Comp is absolutely a flash hider and is illegal & letter doesn't mean shit in NJ as we follow our own set of rules? Use your pinky. (What a twat)

So at this point I would like %100 solid assurance it is NJ compliant...but I do not know if it's worth risking a felony charge.

Why I want this comp so bad? After countless hours of research it seems to be a muzzle device that slightly helps muzzle rise (its a .223 so who cares) but is not as loud and annoying as any other comps / brakes. And it's friggen $31.

You have the same bathe letter I had......  why are you worrying the batfe tested the items and proved it's not a flash hider.....  

If that is not enough best you get a rifle that had no threads. ....of which this will all be a moot point shortly.

 

Lastly....quite a few gunshop owners know jack shite

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OMG, that BATFE letter won't mean squat. NJ is a pile on state.  That comp will not be what gets you three hots and a cot.  It will be a list a mile long of charges that you will have to address with the DA.  

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This forum is about as reliable as 

18 hours ago, JohnnyB said:

DON'T ask lawyers, cops or gunsmiths Any questions on legality for anything gun related! You would probably get better advice from a shoemaker!

The pinky test is BS. If it is sold as a compensator or brake and the description says nothing about flash mitigation. You are GTG!

PS. The best place  to ask questions is right here on this forum. There are more knowledgeable people here than just about anywhere you could find!:)

This forum can be included in the same group as shoemakers, its usually 50/50 at best.

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2 hours ago, T Bill said:

OMG, that BATFE letter won't mean squat. NJ is a pile on state.  That comp will not be what gets you three hots and a cot.  It will be a list a mile long of charges that you will have to address with the DA.  

Not sure I understand exactly what you are implying. Don't get the comp?  BATFE letter is worthless? And why / what other charges? Are you saying they would charge me with possession of a assault weapon and pile on charges because of the comp?

A little more clarification would be much appreciated.

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10 minutes ago, roxxer69 said:

Not sure I understand exactly what you are implying. Don't get the comp?  BATFE letter is worthless? And why / what other charges? Are you saying they would charge me with possession of a assault weapon and pile on charges because of the comp?

A little more clarification would be much appreciated.

The BATFE letter isn't worthless, but it isn't going to necessarily save you. 

1) Any cop dealing with you won't know jack in detail. They'll do what they want and let people with more knowledge and authority sort shit out so long as their ass is covered by probable cause. The converse to this is that they probably won't do anything about it unless you give them a reason to, because they don't know the technical details of the law, if they know the law at all. They either think all evil black rilfes are illegal, or they know some aren't. But that's probably it at best. 

2) The NJSP firearms unit is tasked with providing guidelines to departments and prosecutors on the technicalities of the law. They have promulgated the pinkey test. Good or bad. 

3) Prosecutors go to court to win cases and make their numbers look good. They won't take a shitty case to court to lose unless they have a grudge or strong marching orders. In theory, when making that determination, they would look at the case they have and make at least a quick consult on technical issues. At that point the actual, specific to this case, opinions of the NJFU will matter a whole lot to them. At that point, the BATFE letter as submitted by your lawyer will also probably matter to them. Once again absent a grudge or strong marching orders, if they both say no it's not, your bill stops being run up there and you move on with your life minus some cash.

4) If it doesn't stop there, you are now going to argue reality vs the law in front of a judge. The law does NOT define a flash suppressor. This means more than likely you will have to down the road of arguing the common understand of the language used in the law. Which will lead to trying to prove that the device does not lessen flash in any meaningful way. The BATFE during the AWB had some unpublished metric for this. Now it does not. This leaves your lawyer and the prosecutor arguing over how much flash it makes vs a bare muzzle, and arguing what meets the common understanding of suppressed. This will likely mean expert testimony. The prosecutor's will be the NJFU guys if they concur it IS one, and possibly additional expert testimony sourced elsewhere. If favorable, one of those expert sources will likely be the manufacturer themselves, and any marketing materials will likely be accepted as the opinion of same in their absence and ignorance of the trial. The prosecutor will not be paying for anything that might help you. IF they have, the entity will just stay home and their results will be secret unless your lawyer discovers their existence and contents. If you are in this position, it means they have been told NO and prosecuted anyway. Don't expect them to abide by the law and willingly disclose stuff they have not made part of their case. SO now you have to pay for experts. Which cost a shit ton. AND you need the judge to not then decide that the common understanding of things is unfavorable to you and your expert. 

THAT is what TBill means by the letter being worthless.  IT isn't protection from anyone but the BATFE. Vs. state law it is just evidence from an expert source in a situation where you are explicitly asking a judge, who based on precedent thinks you should go fuck yourself, for their opinion on where the threshold of the law is. 

Myself, if I didn't care about it being effective as a comp, I'd avoid that risk and just perm-attach a thread protector. IT's safe and gets the job done. It's also cheap. 

If I cared about it being effective, I'd buy something that did a good job. And produced as much of a fireball as possible. It would also be absent any verbiage from the manufacturer about flash suppression. 

 

 

 

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Thanks, Raz for the enhancement.  What I mean is NJ will never just charge you with one crime.  They will tack on something to the original charge. It's hedging their bet.  When you see it all before you on the table they will offer you a deal. A plead guilty deal to something or go to trial.  Either way you lost, big.  Your lawyer will do all the talking and the cash clock is ticking.  How much you got?  Get my drift.  Do what you want, but keep your mouth shut, and your paper in your pocket.  Make them prove their case.  Remember they can lie to you, but you cannot lie to them.  Sucks, doesn't it?

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