I Appreciate Assault Weapons. And I Support a Ban

[CAL. .30 M1 2,101]

8 hours ago, AVB-AMG said:

 

-       It is the person and not the tool that is the problem in these mass shootings.

 

First off, your prior post is and I call.bull crap...you don' believe what you typed your placating the forum...to attempt to save face and be relevant.

Why do i say this.....becuase if the statement that I pulled from you post is the take away that you have from all this, and you never realized that before  - you truly are a special kind of stupid.  

 

If it took an Internet forum to explain this to you - well, you can figure out from that whatever you want..... 

 

What you need is a long hard introspective look as to who/what you are as are human being, man in a free society and the responsibilities that go along with it, and gun owner....with all those responsibilities to keep the society free as well.

I can already tell, if it has not happened, you are dreading the conversation - trying to convince your wife of your new found revelations is giving you angst and you are not looking forward to it.  Best you make peace with it...it could ruin your marriage.

 

Lastly the 2A is not at all about sporting clays, hunting, collecting, recreational shooting, investing in collectibles etc....  those facets are all bonuses - it is solely about resisting tyranny and personal defense.

We are in my opinion quickly approaching a time whereby good men with guns might need to make a decision as to where they stand at the line and which side of it they wish to stand.   Those men and women that choose freedom & liberty and belive in this nation may soon find themselves pushed onto the two way range by those  that would seek to destroy a nation from within.  Those that crave nothing but power prestige and money on the backs of a law abiding citizenry.  That cult of personality that thrive on the media spotlight, the look at me relevance as they look at the serfs from their limos and Ivory towers.....

 

Where will you stand - I am sure your wife will tell you where you should....

 

[W2MC 1,699]

[High Exposure 5,661]

4 hours ago, USRifle30Cal said:

First off, your prior post is and I call.bull crap...you don' believe what you typed your placating the forum...to attempt to save face and be relevant.

Why do i say this.....becuase if the statement that I pulled from you post is the take away that you have from all this, and you never realized that before  - you truly are a special kind of stupid.  

 

If it took an Internet forum to explain this to you - well, you can figure out from that whatever you want..... 

 

What you need is a long hard introspective look as to who/what you are as are human being, man in a free society and the responsibilities that go along with it, and gun owner....with all those responsibilities to keep the society free as well.

I can already tell, if it has not happened, you are dreading the conversation - trying to convince your wife of your new found revelations is giving you angst and you are not looking forward to it.  Best you make peace with it...it could ruin your marriage.

 

Lastly the 2A is not at all about sporting clays, hunting, collecting, recreational shooting, investing in collectibles etc....  those facets are all bonuses - it is solely about resisting tyranny and personal defense.

We are in my opinion quickly approaching a time whereby good men with guns might need to make a decision as to where they stand at the line and which side of it they wish to stand.   Those men and women that choose freedom & liberty and belive in this nation may soon find themselves pushed onto the two way range by those  that would seek to destroy a nation from within.  Those that crave nothing but power prestige and money on the backs of a law abiding citizenry.  That cult of personality that thrive on the media spotlight, the look at me relevance as they look at the serfs from their limos and Ivory towers.....

 

Where will you stand - I am sure your wife will tell you where you should....

 

WTF dude?

Unnecessary.

If this is how we treat folks after having their eyes opened a bit? It is no wonder we are always fighting, and often losing our rights. 

Everyone in this world is a victim of their own frame of reference and no one holds all the keys to the kingdom. 

We each view the world, the people in it,  and the things that happen with a bias towards what we have experienced, what we have come to believe is the truth of this world. Not everyone has been a victim of a violent crime. Not everyone has seen evil. 

You can not expect everyone to come to the same conclusions as “you” on their own. Some folks need a little help.

This is the part we are supposed to be better at. Using facts and logic to defeat emotion and rhetoric. A lot of you in this thread are lacking that ability  - some of you all sound like Democrats with your idle threats, and attempts at silencing. Screaming over an attempt at dialogue - shit some of you sound like you’ve been triggered and need a safe space.

Russian shill? Come on. A bunch of folks here have met him - hell, he came to a shotgun shoot.

I expect better from my brother and sister gun owners. I am very disappointed.

Be gracious. Take the win. You actually changed someone’s mind. 

And if you look, it wasn’t the ones who gnashed their teeth add wrent their clothes over AVB’s statements. It was those of us who held true to the core values of our side of the argument - the ones who used calm and directed knowledge, undisputed facts, and truth, that changed AVB’s mind. 

AVB, I am directly opposed to the statements made by the congresscritter from Florida. Many others in this thread have covered the big points but basically it boils down to this - 

You can not legislate evil, and people are evil. Guns are tools. We are facing a software issue, not a hardware one.

I believe that the big issue we are facing is the fact that those with mental instability of any kind are placed in a “protected class”. By doing such we are doing everyone a disservice. I think we need a complete overhaul of the mental health system before we will see a drastic change in the kind of behavior that  can creates someone that thinks shooting up a school is a good thing.

In the meantime, we need more SROs - I have many thoughts on what it means to be an SRO but that is a different topic.

 

[CAL. .30 M1 2,101]

3 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

WTF dude?

Unnecessary.

If this is how we treat folks after having their eyes opened a bit? It is no wonder we are are always fighting, and often losing our rights. 

Everyone in this world is a victim of their own frame of reference and no one holds all the keys to the kingdom. 

We each view the world, the people in it,  and the things that happen with a bias towards what we have experienced, what we have come to believe is the truth of this world. Not everyone has been a victim of a violent crime. Not everyone has seen evil. 

You can not expect everyone to come to the same conclusions as “you” on their own. Some folks need a little help.

This is the part we are supposed to be better at. Using facts and logic to defeat emotion and rhetoric. A lot of you in this thread are lacking that ability  - You sound like Democrats with your idle threats, and attempts at silencing. Screaming over an attempt at dialogue - shit some of you sound like you’ve been triggered and need a safe space.

Russian shill? Come on. A bunch of folks here have met him - hell, he came to a shotgun shoot.

I expect better from my brother and sister gun owners. I am very disappointed.

Be gracious. Take the win. You actually changed someone’s mind. 

And if you look, it wasn’t the ones who gnashed their teeth add wrent their clothes over AVB’s statements. It was those of us who held true to the core values of our side of the argument - the ones who used calm and directed knowledge, undisputed facts, and truth, that changed AVB’s mind. 

AVB, I am directly opposed to the statements made by the congresscritter from Florida. Many others in this thread have covered the big points but basically it boils down to this - 

You can not legislate evil, and people are evil. Guns are tools. We are facing a software issue, not a hardware one.

I believe that the big issue we are facing is the fact that those with mental instability of any kind are placed in a “protected class”. By doing such we are doing everyone a disservice. I think we need a complete overhaul of the mental health system before we will see a drastic change in the kind of behavior that  can creates someone that thinks shooting up a school is a good thing.

In the meantime, we need more SROs - I have many thoughts on what it means to be an SRO but that is a different topic.

 

Sadly at times - we can and are victims of our own passions and beliefs - sometimes we are no better than our 'enemies' real or perceived.

 

Was I a bit harsh - yes - was I very harsh - I am not so sure.  However, I do see your point and it is well taken.  While it may take time for me personally to accept what I might think is drivel, I can sit back and understand those that I agree with on most matters where I may have faltered, being lead by my zeal.

 

So that being said @AVB-AMG - Please accept my apologies for being condescending, belittling and otherwise a downright dick to you.  I hope that the patience that others provided to you in this and others posts help to truly open your eyes a bit wider than they are as it pertains to firearms ownership. 

 

That being said - - you must understand the environment you are in - and the passion there runs deep - this is a not an RC model hobby - or a MC forum talking about oil and tires - right?  At this time an place we are skiddish of anyone that may be perceived as an appeaser - especially in our own ranks.  I am going to be cautiously optimistic about You (not that you should really care what I think ) and hope that you become the poster boy for real 2A rights and not appeasement.

 

@High Exposure - appreciate the feedback

 

[67gtonut 847]

Let's not eat our own here.....

Keep it civil......

 

[High Exposure 5,661]

14 minutes ago, USRifle30Cal said:

Sadly at times - we can and are victims of our own passions and beliefs - sometimes we are no better than our 'enemies' real or perceived.

 

Was I a bit harsh - yes - was I very harsh - I am not so sure.  However, I do see your point and it is well taken.  While it may take time for me personally to accept what I might think is drivel, I can sit back and understand those that I agree with on most matters where I may have faltered, being lead by my zeal.

 

So that being said @AVB-AMG - Please accept my apologies for being condescending, belittling and otherwise a downright dick to you.  I hope that the patience that others provided to you in this and others posts help to truly open your eyes a bit wider than they are as it pertains to firearms ownership. 

 

That being said - - you must understand the environment you are in - and the passion there runs deep - this is a not an RC model hobby - or a MC forum talking about oil and tires - right?  At this time an place we are skiddish of anyone that may be perceived as an appeaser - especially in our own ranks.  I am going to be cautiously optimistic about You (not that you should really care what I think ) and hope that you become the poster boy for real 2A rights and not appeasement.

 

@High Exposure - appreciate the feedback

 

Well said USR30c. 

[voyager9 3,434]

50 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

In the meantime, we need more SROs - I have many thoughts on what it means to be an SRO but that is a different topic.

SRO?

[High Exposure 5,661]

Just now, voyager9 said:

SRO?

School Resource Officer

[voyager9 3,434]

37 minutes ago, 67gtonut said:

Let's not eat our own here.....

Keep it civil......

 

Actually, in that respect this thread has made a remarkable recovery. 

Just now, High Exposure said:

School Resource Officer

Oh. Duh. For some reason I had Restraining Order stuck in my head. 

[tattooo 220]

AVB I'm glad you were reasonable enough to listen to opposing views as well as able to withstand the forum beating long enough to open your eyes ...lol
[emoji106][emoji106]

[AVB-AMG 530]

High Exposure:

Thank you for your very thoughtful and considerate post.  Not too many people have risked breaking away from the group-think here to actually defend someone (me) who claims to have actually learned and now agrees with some valid claims and arguments, thus changing their mind.  I appreciate your taking the time and making the effort to take the higher road, as well as a higher altitude perspective on why we all are here on NJGF and sharing it here.

YSRifle30Cal:

Thank you for taking the time to further elaborate your feelings on this sensitive topic, as well as about me.  We all, myself included, can become very defensive and may be too quick to react to statements made by others on our respective keyboards, trading snarky insults and/or making libel statements.  I appreciate your “reconsideration” of me and my motives and being willing to have some faith in my being honest and truthful in my epiphany on this topic.  Also, I apologize to you for my earlier critical rant that included you.  BTW, my wife and I disagree on a number of things but she is slowly becoming more tolerant about guns and the national debate.  I get her out to the RTSP range every several months to practice with our personal defense handgun.  As importantly, I am savy enough to realize that it is worth paying for a female instructor to help her review the fundamentals and in order to be truly effective, that instructor should not be her husband...

I understand and do not blame the skepticism of some here, such as Golf Battery, that I am being honest and sincere in my “conversion” on this particular issue.  (BTW, I have not denied that I can, at times, act like an ass....).  Aside from the thread I started 3 years ago on Donald Trump, I will say the reason I make my comments and start new threads on firearm-related topics here is because I find them interesting and want to start or partake in a discussion to better educate myself.  Yes, sometimes I may present my opinion as an absolute statement, which does not come across as a question or as a willingness to being open to change my mind, but I do not think I am alone in doing that.  I need to work on that more...

I think it is worth repeating part of what I said in my last long post: I know a fair amount, but the more I learn, the more I realize just how much I do not know and need to learn.  While I do have strong feelings, beliefs and values regarding many things, when it comes to firearms, I am still evolving my position on this sensitive topic, since I only re-started my connection with firearms in the past several years.

I read and listen to both opposing sides of this ongoing debate and digest their respective arguments and do believe that there is some mutually acceptable middle ground that the majority of us can eventually reach.  I am comfortable with that and am not a zealot and am wary of both extremes.  My position may not be acceptable to either the radical right or left wings politically, but it is my position.  Unlike some here, I am willing to change my mind based on rational, logical and sensible arguments, based on reason, historical facts and honest truth.  I have done that on other topics we have discussed here on NJGF, such as how to deal with North Korea.  I expect that my beliefs on other topics may also continue to evolve since our nation and world are constantly changing and we need to be willing to adapt to that change and not be statically stuck in a retrospective view of how to deal with progress.

Now, on to the next topic...

AVB-AMG

[AVB-AMG 530]

39 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

SRO?

 

38 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

School Resource Officer

My first assumption was:

SRO = Safety Range Officer

(before I realized that person is correctlyreferred to as a RSO)

Question:  What exactly is a School Resource Officer?  Is it some sort of internal armed protection person inside a school who is not a LEO?

AVB-AMG

[High Exposure 5,661]

Keeping in mind policing is regional - I am only speaking from a N.J. perspective.

An SRO is a full police officer that is assigned to duties specific to the public schools in the municipality where the officer works.

Their specific duties vary department to department.

While that sounds pretty basic, it is often times a challenging complicated job, with varying levels of responsibility between the Board of Ed, the PD, and the School Facilty and students. It is a job I would not want to be assigned.

In some agencies, the SRO is nothing but a security guard, in others it is like policing a completely separate town from the one that hired you, and in still others, you are treated like nothing more than a “guidance counselor”.

[AVB-AMG 530]

Thank you for that explaination.  I think that SRO role will now be undergoing some real indepth scrutiny as to exactly what that position should entail and possibly be standardized, with appropriate special training.  It will be important moving forward that the public, parents, students, teachers and LEO’s are all clearly aware of what the role of the SRO is and what their specific responsibilities are, especially if they are armed.  For all sense and purposes, since they are stationed and patrolling inside the school(s), they are and should be the “first responder” to any armed intruder who somehow makes it inside a school.  Also, IMHO, there should be sufficient numbers of SRO’s in each school, based on the population size of the school.

AVB-AMG

[voyager9 3,434]

10 minutes ago, tattooo said:

AVB I'm glad you were reasonable enough to listen to opposing views as well as able to withstand the forum beating long enough to open your eyes ...lol

Gotta appreciate his resilience.  Most people’s eyes would be swollen shut after such a beating. Instead his were opened. 

[High Exposure 5,661]

9 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

Gotta appreciate his resilience.  Most people’s eyes would be swollen shut after such a beating. Instead his were opened. 

^^^ Fucking THIS!!!!

This is why we must encourage and not dog-pile those with opposing views. No one ever won an argument by calling their opponent an idiot, shill, or anything derogatory.  Lay out the facts. Put out good info. Don’t take it personal. Be pleasant but firm. Be rational not emotional. This is how you change minds. The first thing you have to do in any discussion like this is to convince the other side that it’s OK to change their mind, and they weren’t stupid for believing what they believed in the first place. You can’t let them get defensive. Once they are defending themselves, and not their opinions, it’s over.

Luckily, AVB has thick skin and an open mind. This is very uncommon in my experience.

We still may not all agree 100% but that’s ok, as long as there is mutual respect and we act like adults.

[voyager9 3,434]

3 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Luckily, AVB has thick skin and an open mind. This is very uncommon in my experience.

Does skin thickness determine post-length?  If so I’m kinda wishing he were more of a pansy. 

[Zeke 5,504]

5 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

Gotta appreciate his resilience.  Most people’s eyes would be swollen shut after such a beating. Instead his were opened. 

I had a very good hour conversation with Him yesterday. He’s an interesting guy.

I agree and disagree with him on many issues. 

Hes deft with his shotgun, I’ll attest to that.

 

Unfortunately keyboard steroids seem to have a grotesque ,malignant side effect when it comes to actual discussion. 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Be it my nature, but i have to second guess this epiphany. 

 

Is it to say that AVB never heard these arguments before? Was his original opinion formed through close examination of the issues on both sides? 

I can appreciate someone taking new facts and applying them, but why were they omitted to begin with? Honestly, I do find AVB to be intellectual, which make this entire conversation questionable at best. He writes walls of text, which means he would be someone who fancies reading.... but he seems to focus all of his reading with left leaning ideologies, many of which end up posted here. 

 

Secondly, AVB do you sill believe that banning an AR-15 wouldn't be an infringement on the 2A, as you stated originally?

 

I'm not saying this is what's going on, but AVB depends on people believing he is credible in his opinion. Otherwise we would just write him off moving forward. It's a technique in manipulation, something we often see our politicians do when they start to lose support. 

[Zeke 5,504]

2 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

Does skin thickness determine post-length?  If so I’m kinda wishing he were more of a pansy. 

Ok, that’s funny 

[TokenEntry 293]

FYI - The CPAC event had concluded yesterday, 02/24/2018. Why is this relevant? Well, throughout the event many guest speakers including POTUS, NRA, and Dick Heller have talked about the 2nd Amendment in the current political climate. The link below is almost a 7 hour video stream of the last day of CPAC. I've watched the first 5 hours already, but if you want to watch specifically Dick Heller refer to the link below. However, I recommend to view the other guest speakers as well.

Link - Dick Heller <Video starts at 3:41:16 to 3:58:23>

Regards,

TokenEntry

[tattooo 220]

Gotta appreciate his resilience.  Most people’s eyes would be swollen shut after such a beating. Instead his were opened. 

Couldn't agree more

[AVB-AMG 530]

16 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

 AVB do you sill believe that banning an AR-15 wouldn't be an infringement on the 2A, as you stated originally?

At this point, I think that banning any semi-automatic firearm would be an infringement on MY interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.  As importantly, I believe that ANY ban on semi-automatic firearms, not just AR-15’s, would ultimately be ineffectual in preventing or deterring a determined, crazed individual from obtaining and unfortunately using that firearm in a mass shooting.  I think that is the important message that is needed to be shared with and digested by the American public.

AVB-AMG

[Zeke 5,504]

23 minutes ago, TokenEntry said:

FYI - The CPAC event had concluded yesterday, 02/24/2018. Why is this relevant? Well, throughout the event many guest speakers including POTUS, NRA, and Dick Heller have talked about the 2nd Amendment in the current political climate. The link below is almost a 7 hour video stream of the last day of CPAC. I've watched the first 5 hours already, but if you want to watch specifically Dick Heller refer to the link below. However, I recommend to view the other guest speakers as well.

Link - Dick Heller <Video starts at 3:41:16 to 3:58:23>

Regards,

TokenEntry

Thanks for sharing that

[AVB-AMG 530]

44 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

I'm not saying this is what's going on, but AVB depends on people believing he is credible in his opinion. Otherwise we would just write him off moving forward. It's a technique in manipulation, something we often see our politicians do when they start to lose support. 

JackDaWack:

If I was or am so effective in manipulating people’s opinion of me or my stated beliefs, then maybe I should run for public office.  It certainly worked for you know who....

Then again...nah....  I would not want to have to be answerable and beholden to the special interest groups that I would need to fund my election and re-election campaigns.

Instead, I can just enjoy living off of my extensive $ proceeds in retirement, that I have received from G. Soros from all of my posts here....

(Let’s all try not to lose our sense of humor....)

AVB-AMG

[JC_68Westy 1,024]

23 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

yaknow? i thought the .40 cal seemed odd......

as for 20 rounders, a former cap cadet is a marine.....and according to him, they had 20 rounders......

The 30rd mag has been standard issue for more than 35 years.  The only 20rd mags I ever encountered were for the M14.  We normally loaded 28 in the M16 mags.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

7 minutes ago, AVB-AMG said:

JackDaWack:

If I was or am so effective in manipulating people’s opinion of me or my stated beliefs, then maybe I should run for public office.  It certainly worked for you know who....

Then again...nah....  I would not want to have to be answerable and beholden to the special interest groups that I would need to fund my election and re-election campaigns.

Instead, I can just enjoy living off of my extensive $ proceeds in retirement, that I have received from G. Soros from all of my posts here....

(Let’s all try not to lose our sense of humor....)

AVB-AMG

It wasn't meant as a personal attack. In fact as i said earlier I do consider you intellectual, unfortunately i hold people with brains and their opinions to a higher standard. 

Unfortunately, the effect of manipulation is two fold, not necessarily getting people to believe in your views, but to get people to listen in the first place. The fact is, the more you appear to go against everyone values here, the less people will be willing to listen to you. Think of all those who have already blocked you here. In turn, the more people that hash out against a reasonable person, the more they look discreditable themselves.

 

[capt14k 2,052]

Keeping in mind policing is regional - I am only speaking from a N.J. perspective.
An SRO is a full police officer that is assigned to duties specific to the public schools in the municipality where the officer works.
Their specific duties vary department to department.
While that sounds pretty basic, it is often times a challenging complicated job, with varying levels of responsibility between the Board of Ed, the PD, and the School Facilty and students. It is a job I would not want to be assigned.
In some agencies, the SRO is nothing but a security guard, in others it is like policing a completely separate town from the one that hired you, and in still others, you are treated like nothing more than a “guidance counselor”.

We do not need to expand the police state. What we need is to allow the teachers to be armed. If the Flroida Shooting has shown anything it is that the SRO didn't do a damn thing. Neither did the next 3 Sheriff Deputies who showed up. Maybe because SCOTUS has ruled police have no duty to protect, and they were all afraid? Maybe because they were given stand down orders? Bottom line is I don't care to turn the United States into Isreal. It disgusts me when I see police in tactical gear carrying submachine guns on the streets of NYC or anywhere else. When we give up our freedoms in this country and allow the police to act look like an occupying military we have lost and they have won.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[High Exposure 5,661]

Hmmmm....

I wonder if those SROs had rifle plates and rifles - weapons equal to the shooter and protection from his rounds - would they have run in?

Should first responders face almost certain death because they aren’t allowed to have the same weapons and equipment we allow our citizens to own?

If the people of our nation should be allowed to have AR type rifles, and I truly believe the do, then the organization tasked with policing the people should have the tools to do so.

[JohnnyB 4,322]

3 minutes ago, capt14k said:

 

We do not need to expand the police state. What we need is to allow the teachers to be armed. If the Flroida Shooting has shown anything it is that the SRO didn't do a damn thing. Neither did the next 3 Sheriff Deputies who showed up. Maybe because SCOTUS has ruled police have no duty to protect, and they were all afraid? Maybe because they were given stand down orders? Bottom line is I don't care to turn the United States into Isreal. It disgusts me when I see police in tactical gear carrying submachine guns on the streets of NYC or anywhere else. When we give up our freedoms in this country and allow the police to act look like an occupying military we have lost and they have won.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Asking a teacher who has little to no experience with firearms even a CCW to volunteer to carry in a building full of people in very close quarters is a recipe for disaster IMHO. I shoot quite a bit but add panic and Adrenalin and I would be very afraid of hitting a child where inches matter. 

Teachers who are retired LEO or military with extensive weapons use and training would be an exception. As would highly weapons trained and experienced teachers. All should have to pass an extensive test at a police academy and decisions made on a case by case basis.  I have absolutely nothing against uniformed or plain clothed cops being SROs. Even those must be chosen with care as many cops would not be well suited for that job.