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Sota

water pressure issues...

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Won't fill a roman tub. There's a reason he needs 75gal of storage.

 

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Why not? If tankless is sized right it will fill any tub. Sometimes you need to piggy back them. Those toys in Home Depot like Bosch or Rennai won’t work but Noritz will.

 

 

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got 99% of the parts today.

Is it ok to hang it inverted, with the water port facing down?

since I'm not putting it on a T fitting and hanging it from there, do I need to still install the turbulator, which doesn't want to go in anyways?

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got 99% of the parts today.
Is it ok to hang it inverted, with the water port facing down?
since I'm not putting it on a T fitting and hanging it from there, do I need to still install the turbulator, which doesn't want to go in anyways?
Yeah you can beat it in. Or throw it out. The instructions tell you how to mount it. But I like the water port facing up. I hate seeing them face down or horizontal. When you have to change a ruptured one, it's much easier. I charge more when I have to take a shower while changing it.

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Why not? If tankless is sized right it will fill any tub. Sometimes you need to piggy back them. Those toys in Home Depot like Bosch or Rennai won’t work but Noritz will.
 
 
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They're are good ones. But most of my customers have hot water boilers. So I sell indirects. The biggest issue I find with tank less units is no one does the maintenance. I've probably ripped about a dozen out of houses and put a tank back in, because they were too lazy to have it serviced every year. And after 6 years of shit is built up in the heat exchanger it's too late to do anything with it. I'm not a fan of wall hung tank less units.

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1 hour ago, DeerSlayer said:

Yeah you can beat it in. Or throw it out. The instructions tell you how to mount it. But I like the water port facing up. I hate seeing them face down or horizontal. When you have to change a ruptured one, it's much easier. I charge more when I have to take a shower while changing it.

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argument I heard for putting the water port down was, if the bladder ruptures the air charge is still in there for a time, meaning it still works to an extent for a period of time.  But then I guess you don't know the bladder has failed as easily.  Guess I'll install it water port up and ditch the turbulator, since it'll be on the end of a stove pipe connection like your one install picture showed.

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They're are good ones. But most of my customers have hot water boilers. So I sell indirects. The biggest issue I find with tank less units is no one does the maintenance. I've probably ripped about a dozen out of houses and put a tank back in, because they were too lazy to have it serviced every year. And after 6 years of shit is built up in the heat exchanger it's too late to do anything with it. I'm not a fan of wall hung tank less units.

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Maintenance is simple if installed properly. Yes with hot water heater I always use boiler mate.

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I guess one of the things I didn't like about the instant units is... they're complicated.  At least ones that are big enough to work for a whole house, which are gas fired.  All those extra moving parts to me are just shit that's going to break easily, and cost a lot to fix when they do.  Whereas a classic tank is just a big ass bottle with a burner and a pilot light.  No moving parts, no electronics most of the time.

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I guess one of the things I didn't like about the instant units is... they're complicated.  At least ones that are big enough to work for a whole house, which are gas fired.  All those extra moving parts to me are just shit that's going to break easily, and cost a lot to fix when they do.  Whereas a classic tank is just a big ass bottle with a burner and a pilot light.  No moving parts, no electronics most of the time.
No standing water in tankless to rot out bottom of tank and destroy finished basement.

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I can honestly say, I've never seen that happen.

Maybe it's because I actually flush the tank at least once a year, and the current one has been flushed at least 5 times this year, as i use the outlet as a hot water feed to my pressure washer to clean the car and plow of salt and debris after every snow storm.

I do it in the same maintenance cycle as the furnace and humidifier filters, so it's not like it's a major inconvenience.

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I've definitely seen tanks that have let go and destroyed basements. That's why you change them when they hit a certain age, and don't wait for failure.  

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Especially if you live in Monroe Township in Middlesex County. After just 8 years you need to start checking it. After 10 you are playing with Fire. I’ve never seen municipal water eat the finish off faucets anywhere else in my area. Most towns have a private water company that get their water from the Reservoirs or Aquafier. Monroe has Municipal Water Company that gets their water from wells that aren’t down to the Aquafier.

 

 

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 Especially if you live in Monroe Township in Middlesex County. After just 8 years you need to start checking it. After 10 you are playing with Fire. I’ve never seen municipal water eat the finish off faucets anywhere else in my area. Most towns have a private water company that get their water from the Reservoirs or Aquafier. Monroe has Municipal Water Company that gets their water from wells that aren’t down to the Aquafier.
 
 
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Everywhere in Morris/Sussex/Warren County where I work has crazy hard and usually low Ph water. Without treatment equipment, everything is screwed.

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On March 23, 2018 at 4:19 PM, DeerSlayer said:

Do you have a pressure reducing valve on the main at the meter?

 

(60psi is normal for municipal supply residential water service. Pressure will vary at different times of the day due to demand. 80psi is max allowed in any plumbing system in NJ, residential or commercial.)

 

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I find this interesting -- I'm an irrigation installer for 30 years now -- I regularly run into city water pressures over 80 psi with no PRV

every house I ever worked on in Sayreville is up around 100 psi -- rarely are there pressure reducing valves

 

 

 

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On 3/24/2018 at 8:23 PM, fishnut said:

I'm planning on doing just that when I get the house. @Lambo2936 what you got in your warehouse? 

Whoops, just saw this. Been out of the country.

Shoot me a PM; ill take a look when i get back tomorrow and let you know what exactly i have left. Should have a 9 or 9.5gpm High efficiency unit. 200kbtu IIRC. Have smaller as well, but the price difference is like nothing, kinda stupid to go with a mid efficiency unit unless you intend on moving out and would rather save the 1-200$ or whatever.

Have 2 sitting in my mothers living room with a bunch of other inventory that i had dumped at the house while i was gone, too. Dont remember which they were, but i think also 9 or 9.5 HE units.

 

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6 hours ago, sota said:

I guess one of the things I didn't like about the instant units is... they're complicated.  At least ones that are big enough to work for a whole house, which are gas fired.  All those extra moving parts to me are just shit that's going to break easily, and cost a lot to fix when they do.  Whereas a classic tank is just a big ass bottle with a burner and a pilot light.  No moving parts, no electronics most of the time.

My parents unit is in 'limp home mode' right now so when i get back i have to replace it.

That said, it took approximately 7 years of heavy, nearly constant use and absolutely no maintainance whatsoever. The convenience of not running out of water is worth every penny, especially with such a full house like we have. Used to run outta water all the time.. and that was a relatively crappy mid efficiency rheem unit.

Nevermind the likely savings per gallon of hot water compared to a tank.

Will be installing another tankless, without a doubt. 

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Once you get over 80psi, the water is moving through the piping system at a velocity above 7 fps. And that will prematurely wear the inside of the piping system, especially at an elbow. That's why it's code here.

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last (hopefully?) question:  which pressure reducer should I get?

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Watts-0009257-3-4-LF25AUB-Z3-Pressure-Reducing-Valve-Threaded-F-Union-Inlet-x-NPT-Threaded-F-Outlet

looks identical to mine, so should install stupid quick.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-535651HA-3-4-Press-Pressure-Reducing-Valve-w-Gauge-Low-Lead-Pre-adjustable

has a gauge on it, which is nice.

 

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Ok so I installed the new pressure reducer.  All seemed ok, I have static pressure of 50psi right now.  Problem is I have a pressure gauge installed on the water tank still, and it's still peaking up to 100psi+, and right now it's saying I had a peak pressure of over 170psi !!!  that just doesn't seem possible.  It's a new gauge, "Watts" brand, but I can't believe I have pressure peaks THAT high.  Waiting to install the expansion tank for when I do repairs on the hot water heater, IF I ever get the damn outlet nipple... seems no one has it.

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Sota,

You need the expansion tank. The PRV is a check valve. When water heats up it expands and it needs a place to go. Many homes without Pressure Reducing Valves can get away without the tank, because the pressure goes back up the cold side. If the water doesn't have a place to go, you will shorten the life of the water heater and many other fixtures in the home.

Some of my installs get an expansion tank even if there is no PRV, tankes more stress away from the tank itself. PM me if you still need the Di-electric nipple, think I have a bunch in my shop

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last (hopefully?) question:  which pressure reducer should I get?
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Watts-0009257-3-4-LF25AUB-Z3-Pressure-Reducing-Valve-Threaded-F-Union-Inlet-x-NPT-Threaded-F-Outlet
looks identical to mine, so should install stupid quick.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-535651HA-3-4-Press-Pressure-Reducing-Valve-w-Gauge-Low-Lead-Pre-adjustable
has a gauge on it, which is nice.
 
I normally use the Watts myself. But I love Caleffi products, that second one with the gauge is nice. Their stuff is top notch. Usually depends on what my supply house has in stock, and of course my customers budget. In NJ a Guage port is required at the main. The Guage itself is optional, but definitely nice to have.

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I want to thank you for such thorough plumbing help on this forum, for free.  I always read your posts to remind me why I sub out boiler / furnace / water heater installs to licensed plumbers like you. 
Quick story, my "client" wanted to fix a similar issue, spiking water pressure in a large 1990's colonial.  I went over, outside hose bibb read up to 95 psi, no expansion tank, very old 60 or 65 gal Rheem tank.  Broken house PRV that didn't do a thing.  I told him to call a plumber before we planned a full reno in the basement and gutted / rattled the pipes.  PEX C, looked to me as one of the first kinds, with brass fittings full of oxidation and dezincification everywhere I looked.  No manifold.  I didn't touch a thing.  He didn't listen.  He put on a new house PRV which fixed his "broken" check valve, and maybe spiked the pressure more.  Weeks later a Pex fitting burst and flooded the whole basement. 
Six months later after insurance claims and lots of nonsense, the basement walls and ceiling were gutted, house repiped, new W/H, new expansion tank, new PRV, and all new PEX piping / valves / fittings in the whole basement.  But it's still in the first and second floor walls....
 
This is why I won't use cheap pex or fittings. U only use Viega or Uponor/Wirsbo pex A and fittings. I have the tools for either brand. On domestic I use plastic fittings only, and for heat I usually use bronze instead of brass. They seem to hold up much better, than the junk that the big box stores sell. I'm not willing to chance the liability of using the cheap stuff. But I sure fix a lot of it every day it seems.

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Ok so I installed the new pressure reducer.  All seemed ok, I have static pressure of 50psi right now.  Problem is I have a pressure gauge installed on the water tank still, and it's still peaking up to 100psi+, and right now it's saying I had a peak pressure of over 170psi !!!  that just doesn't seem possible.  It's a new gauge, "Watts" brand, but I can't believe I have pressure peaks THAT high.  Waiting to install the expansion tank for when I do repairs on the hot water heater, IF I ever get the damn outlet nipple... seems no one has it.

You will have pressure spikes and differentials throughout the day that's normal with city water. When the rest of the neighborhood is taking a shower in the morning, or evening. Running laundry on the weekends, it will be lower. Mid day, and at night it usually spikes because everyone is at work or sleeping. At this point you've done pretty much all you can to combat the issue at hand. You're always going to have a rise in the tank from expansion, but the tank should help greatly with that. In extreme pressure situations, I've actually had to install multiple PRV's on the main. I have a neighborhood in Denville NJ, with street pressures over 250psi. Every house I've worked on there has 3 PRV's cranked down as low as possible with a relief valve I piped to outside set to 150psi. In case one fails. I would rather the flood is outside than bursting a washing machine hose in the house.

 

Did you set the pressure in the tank to match the house pressure?

 

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You need a PRV with bypass. If PRV doesn't have bypass you definitely need an expansion tank. Ideally both.

 

 

I won't use PEX and never will.

 

 

Lastly Watts is Made in China Garbage.

 

 

Like Weil-McClain Watts is living off it's past name. Today both are Made in China Junk.

 

 

 

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All done!

Image gallery here (for now)...

http://manybrightdots.com/twg/index.php?twg_album=open%2F0421+water+heater+and+expansion+tank+repair

Finished images:

DSC_0135.JPG

DSC_0136.JPG

DSC_0137.JPG

DSC_0138.JPG

The "rot" pictures are astounding.  Glad I did this finally, and I DEFINTELY needed a new anode!!!

DSC_0128.JPG

Original install date on the tank was 2013/01/26.

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Anode rods don't last very long, but if people replaced them tanks would last longer. When the water starts to smell like rotten eggs it is past time to replace the anode rod. When replacing anode rod it's a good idea to check the dipstick.

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