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Ray Ray

223 more accurate than 556?

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28 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

Is it a general rule that shooting 223 bullets in ARs are more accurate than 556 bullets?  Or is it the same and accuracy is even?

Why are you asking ? You just sold your mags.  Mrs Peel please lock this thread.:facepalm:

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.223 and 5.56 use the same bullets, both are actually .224"diameter, it's the cartridge spec that's different.  NATO spec ammo is not known for precision. But, as they say, it's good 'nuff for government work.

Good accuracy comes about as a result of a combination of several things, bullet weight, profile, barrel twist rate, velocity, barrel quality.  even the powder burn rate can affect  accuracy.

Finding good ammo is not difficult but finding the ammo that shoots best in your particular rifle is all trial and error.

 

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1 hour ago, Ray Ray said:

Is it a general rule that shooting 223 bullets in ARs are more accurate than 556 bullets?  Or is it the same and accuracy is even?

Start with weight for your twist rate. 

more-twist-rate.jpg

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Bullet weight and fps is your concern for accuracy.  And a bunch of other factors.  Lead jump primers all barells will perform differently with different loads.  But in the minor scheme.  223and 556 can be equivalent or close enough to it.  

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5.56 has more gas, so is a bit faster, and thus flatter

If you are looking for a .223 to shoot with better accuracy, you can try .223 Wylde

you's need a barrel / chamber for Wylde, because it has more gas than .223 commercial

and .556 nato - but a Wylde barrel will shoot all three........

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15 minutes ago, Screwball said:

 


What’s the third?

.223 Wylde is a chamber, not a cartridge. It allow for more flexibility and better accuracy of both .223 and 5.56mm out of the same chamber.

 

I think that is what Jack was describing, but a lot of people do mix that up and think that it is an actual cartridge.

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I think that is what Jack was describing, but a lot of people do mix that up and think that it is an actual cartridge.


Word...

I did a lot of research on the Wylde chamber prior to getting one on my FDE AR, and did see a lot of people thinking there is a third cartridge. When I saw that post, figured it was a typo... but figured I’d ask in case there is another cartridge I could use that I wasn’t aware of.

I used to shoot .223 when I found it cheap... but now, I stick with either XM193 or XM855. I do want to try out some 77 grains, but will hold off on deciding until I can shoot more easily (when I move).

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49 minutes ago, Screwball said:

 


What’s the third?

.223 Wylde is a chamber, not a cartridge. It allow for more flexibility and better accuracy of both .223 and 5.56mm out of the same chamber.

 

I believe there are some that re-load when using the Wylde chamber and use even more powder in the case because

the .223 Wylde chamber can hold the added pressure. The third would be the custom loads.

Sorry I didn't make it more clear the 1st time....

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.223 Rem chamber shoots ONLY .223 Rem safely   Even though the external dimensions of a 5.56 NATO cartridge and bullet head spacing is the same as .223 Rem, there are important differences.

.223 Rem became popular after the first AWB because 5.56 ammo was considered "military", hence the 5.56 chamber was considered a military feature.  The first post awb target rifles (aka scary black rifles based on the ar-15 lower) by Colt were chambered in .223 and were featureless (ie. no bayo lug, target crown and fixed stock).

The .223 Rem chamber is not strong enough to safely handle the higher 5.56 NATO (powder charge) pressures and is tighter than a 5.56 chamber which also contributes to the increased chamber pressures. This can be confusing because rifle makers like Ruger chamber the mini-14 in .223 Rem, but the rifle is also strong enough to handle NATO spec pressures.

For older rifles, shooting 5.56 in a 223 chamber is a huge no-no, but most rifles chambered in the past decade can handle the pressures and the main difference is the chamber dimensions.  Unless the manufacture specifically says 5.56 is okay in the chamber, don't do it.

5.56x45 NATO chamber shoots 5.56 US/NATO spec M193 and M855/SS109, and will also shoot .223.Rem.  The 5.56 NATO chamber is looser to facilitate reliable feeding in full auto MGs and also be more forgiving to carbon buildup in the chamber.

The looser 5.56 chamber does not lend itself to a high degree of accuracy

.223 Wylde chamber shoots .223 and 5.56 NATO spec safely.  Wylde chambers are looser than .223 but tighter than 5.56 NATO spec.  You can eek out a slightly greater degree of accuracy from NATO ammo with a Wylde chamber because the cartridge fits more snugly.

Most rifles chambered in .223 Rem these days are bolt action.  Precision shooters will "fire form" the brass so when they reload it, the case fits the chamber like a tailored glove.  Once fired brass is only good for the specific rifle it was fired in.  You can't buy a bulk bag of once fired brass and expect it will be more accurate.  In fact, .223 brass fired in a 5.56 chamber will have to be full length resized or it will probably get stuck and not go into battery.  Jam-o-matic.

 

Blah blah blah....  

The bottom line.....  NATO spec ammo is basic cheap range fodder and the favorite cartridge of "preppers"   .223 Rem ammo is generally more accurate because of bullet construction.  A 69/75/77 gr HPBT or OTM loaded on a .223 case will be more accurate than NATO spec because the bullet is made of better materials and to tighter tolerances.  .223 (.224) bullets come in a variety of constructions. ball, soft point, hollow point open tip match, flat base, spitzer, boat tail hollow base, Heavier bullets also have a higher BC (ballistic coefficient) which also helps accuracy.

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20 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

Is it a general rule that shooting 223 bullets in ARs are more accurate than 556 bullets?  Or is it the same and accuracy is even?

 

Man, why do most people decide the question is about something other than the question. 

As others have said 5.56 and .223 bullets are the same bullets. The cartridges and chambers differ slightly. That being said, there's stuff being sold as .223 loaded on 5.56 brass, and if you look at the actual spec for chamber reamers, .223 rem, .223 wylde, and 5.56 reamers can and do overlap in dimensions. They are that close to each other. 

That aside, there is no outright winner in accuracy between .223 and 5.56. many powders give the most consistent performance at less than maximum cartridge pressure/less than maximum fill. So they may be more accurate at .223 pressures and velocities than at 5.56 pressures and velocities. However, universally, a faster bullet with a higher ballistic coefficient is better because it remains supersonic for a longer distance. The transition to subsonic speeds down range is universally detrimental to accuracy beyond that point.

My $0.02 is that most lighter bullets seem to have peak accuracy in .223 pressure ranges, and most heavier bullets seem to do their best at loadings that would put them over .223 max, but under 5.56 max. 

For gun purchases, in general, just buy .223 wylde chambers. My personal taste is stick to twist rates and barrel lengths that give you two full rotations within the length of the barrel. You can get accurate .223 barrels, but they tend to be tight enough you ahe to worry about 5.56 ammo. You can also dig up 5.56 sam-r chambered barrels that are accurate. There's also plenty of accurate barrels labeled 5.56. However, least hassle is pick .223 wylde and read some reviews on the barrel. The signal to noise ratio with that option is just better. 

 

My $0.02. 

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Thank you @raz-0

The barrel is a BCM, 20 inch, free floated with a 1 in 7 twist chambered in 556

The ammo it shot the best was Hornady 55 grain TAP URBAN in 223, but I want to go heavier in either 70 or 75 OR 77 grain loads.  Hornady has the 70 and 75 grainers in 223 and 556 chamberings.  It shoots 1 MOA with the 223 55 grain load mentioned above and is sighted in with said load but I want a load with more distance and punch.

 

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2 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

Thank you @raz-0

The barrel is a BCM, 20 inch, free floated with a 1 in 7 twist chambered in 556

The ammo it shot the best was Hornady 55 grain TAP URBAN in 223, but I want to go heavier in either 70 or 75 OR 77 grain loads.  Hornady has the 70 and 75 grainers in 223 and 556 chamberings.  It shoots 1 MOA with the 223 55 grain load mentioned above and is sighted in with said load but I want a load with more distance and punch.

 

I picked up some of the  IMI  77gr OT match ammo in 556   I just haven't shot it yet

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7 hours ago, silverado427 said:

I picked up some of the  IMI  77gr OT match ammo in 556   I just haven't shot it yet

Funny, that is the load I wanted her to like.  Unfortunately the weather conditions didn't give it a fair shake.  It is in my cart as well as the Hornady stuff.

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The chamber, the reamer, the person doing the machining is all relevant. You can find barrels that are reported to be .223 barrels but if you actually measured the chamber you would find they are 5.56 chambers. Who dunn it? If the machinist cutting the chamber is a little sloppy, you could end up with a "nato" chamber in a .223 barrel. And in a low quality barrel, Im sure you could find the reverse, a short chambered 5.56. So the real safeguard for accuracy is choosing a high quality barrel that someone cared about making. Then choose your chamber accordingly. Then perhaps reload to as closely match the chamber specs as possible.

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31 minutes ago, Shane45 said:

The chamber, the reamer, the person doing the machining is all relevant. You can find barrels that are reported to be .223 barrels but if you actually measured the chamber you would find they are 5.56 chambers. Who dunn it? If the machinist cutting the chamber is a little sloppy, you could end up with a "nato" chamber in a .223 barrel. And in a low quality barrel, Im sure you could find the reverse, a short chambered 5.56. So the real safeguard for accuracy is choosing a high quality barrel that someone cared about making. Then choose your chamber accordingly. Then perhaps reload to as closely match the chamber specs as possible.

It could also just be because of this. 

http://ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf

Or tool wear. 

Or bad labor. 

Part of me thinks that single cut barrels have the reputation they do not because something else can be as good, but because the labor put into it is so much that you have to giver a shit about what you are doing and doing it right. At the labor costs involved, you won't cheap out on tooling and you won't be able to sell bad labor and keep the lights on. 

Reloading, other than the right amount of the right powder for the bullet in your gun, doesn't really enter into it for ARs. A lot of the tricks for consistency that apply to bolt guns don't help, or make things worse with a semi auto. For other things where it is working at the bleeding edge of consistency, it's just lost on a semi auto, loaded to mag length, where the bullet is just too damn slow at the distances that kind of error makes a notable difference. 

Buying factory ammo is a crap shoot for any given gun. Most bullets can be accurate in a decent AR, and increasingly AR barrels are decent compared to 15 or so years ago. But you have to hand load to get it. 

My personal exceptions to that are Remington 55gr FMJ bullets and Nosler 60gr partition. The remingtons are the worst bullet I have ever encountered and it baffles me how they can not group as much as they do in as many barrels as they do at any velocity I have tried without actually key holing or falling apart. Granted, they are the bulk 250 packs from the massive Bush II shortage period, so they may be worse than what you can buy now, but.. damn not worth the risk. 

The partitions are just painfully mediocre for the premium price. Now that there is a relatively wide selection of bonded core bullets, they should go away IMO. Or get better. Something. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

By the way, I am not and will not be reloading for accuracy.  My choices fall down to Hornady, IMI and Black Hills.

I know you don't reload. 

You can check out freedom munitions. They offer a lot of the good bullets in both .223 and 5.56 loadings. No idea if they do a good job, but it at least gives you options. 

You might try the hronady z-max 55gr loads if you can find them. They are loaded a tad hotter than I was loading the same heads, but out of a 14 or 16 they are probably darn close. I got good accuracy with the heads. 

Also there's a number of bulk-ish 50gr OTM rounds available. There are a variety of heads like that that are easy to get good accuracy out of and they should hold together even out of a 1:7 barrel. 

fiocchi also has a number of bulk loadings with good bullets hornady 50 gr v-max and sierra 69 or 77gr OTM. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, raz-0 said:

I know you don't reload. 

You can check out freedom munitions. They offer a lot of the good bullets in both .223 and 5.56 loadings. No idea if they do a good job, but it at least gives you options. 

You might try the hronady z-max 55gr loads if you can find them. They are loaded a tad hotter than I was loading the same heads, but out of a 14 or 16 they are probably darn close. I got good accuracy with the heads. 

 

 

 

The z-max is the same as a-max, buy which ever is cheaper. 

 

You can also try the super performance match or match 75grains. 

 

I have yet to figure out if the plastic tips are more accurate since they provide greater nose shape consistency over hollow points.

I DO know that the 75 grain superperformance and match Hornady rounds dont have the plastic so they will fit magazines. Whether they would benefit from the plastic tip is anyones guess.

 

I'm not sure if it's been stated yet, but the most accurate combination is going to a be a true .223 spec chamber, possibly a match grade barrel, using .223 match bullets.

I believe IMI is using sierra 77gr razor match grade bullets, but they may be lacking other case dimensions if they are 5.56 labeled. Almost all match grade rounds for AR's will be .223 spec.

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2 hours ago, raz-0 said:

You can check out freedom munitions. They offer a lot of the good bullets in both .223 and 5.56 loadings. No idea if they do a good job, but it at least gives you options.

Freedom Munitions sells factory reloads on top of swaged NATO 5.56 brass but labels it as .223. It may seem trivial but it's not.  The inside case dimensions affect pressure.  The actual fps is typically under what's on the box and I've also read reviews that duds are not uncommon.  Also, freedom munitions requires a FID for ammo that does not require a FID.

 

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