Mreed731 5 Posted April 6, 2018 Looking to purchase an AR for range use and HD. Looking at Sig M400 Swat and Stag Model 3 flattop with MOE furniture. The Sig is $200 more but has sights, the Stag does not come with sights. I like the weight and feel of each, have not shot either. There is also a Ruger 556 available. I need help deciding which is the better buy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GramGun79 226 Posted April 6, 2018 Looking to purchase an AR for range use and HD. Looking at Sig M400 Swat and Stag Model 3 flattop with MOE furniture. The Sig is $200 more but has sights, the Stag does not come with sights. I like the weight and feel of each, have not shot either. There is also a Ruger 556 available. I need help deciding which is the better buy.I would recommend building it. It’s easy, fun & believe me you will want to change everything on a stock rifle the more you get into the platform. Easiest route is build your lower and buy a completed upper from a company like BCM. it will require minimal tools and a YouTube tutorial. Literally takes 20 minutes. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mreed731 5 Posted April 6, 2018 I would recommend building it. It’s easy, fun & believe me you will want to change everything on a stock rifle the more you get into the platform. Easiest route is build your lower and buy a completed upper from a company like BCM. it will require minimal tools and a YouTube tutorial. Literally takes 20 minutes. Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThank you for the reply. I have looked at building but the choices are overwhelming. And then how can I be certain it is NJ compliant when I'm done?Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Screwball 483 Posted April 6, 2018 I’m really not a fan of SIG ARs, especially paying more money for them.If it were me, I’d be looking at the barrel and bolt features over the specifics. Get a barrel in a twist rate you want (I prefer 1:8”), and get a quality BCG. If the Ruger gives you that, get that. If the Stag gives you that, get that. For the quality/warranty you get from major manufacturers... get the cheapest one and change out what you don’t like. The MOE stuff is nice, but you’ll likely change out the grip and stock... even if you are buying it for those parts.No sights? Are you going to put a red dot on? If so, invest in that... and when you get more funds, invest in BUIS, if wanted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Screwball 483 Posted April 6, 2018 And then how can I be certain it is NJ compliant when I'm done? You get a pistol grip... no bayonet lug, no collapsible stock (fixed stock), and no flash hider (pinned muzzle break), and no grenade launcher. You can look into the 2C laws regarding assault weapons, and read the list. You can have one of those features... likely going to be a pistol grip. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GramGun79 226 Posted April 6, 2018 Just now, Mreed731 said: Thank you for the reply. I have looked at building but the choices are overwhelming. And then how can I be certain it is NJ compliant when I'm done? Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk We are here to help...Tell us what your looking for and we guide you in the right direction. The members on this forum are good people. You can also go to your local gun shop, tell them your interested in building your own most likely they will have everything you need to build a lower and should be more than willing to give you some pointers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GramGun79 226 Posted April 6, 2018 https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-14-5-Mid-Length-ENHANCED-Light-Weight-p/bcm-urg-mid-14bfh-elw-mcmr-13.htm Not sure what your budget is but this is a nice upper..Choose one of the comps in the muzzle brake drop down (NO FLASH HIDERS) build your lower and slap it on. You will have a solid gun. More than enough to suit your needs of a range toy/HD weapon. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,634 Posted April 6, 2018 It get the Ruger over the Sig and the Stag. I’d take a S&W carbine over the other two. Building is easy - Buy the lower locally and build it with a Magpul Fixed Carbine Stock. Then buy this Upper: http://www.primaryarms.com/troy-industries-16-5-56-upper-w-13-m-lok-rail-and-flip-sights-supg-5mf-16bt-00 All you have to do then is swap the muzzle device out for the brake of your choice and have your local shop pin the new device on for you. 100% legal. If you want to spend a bit more, for a little better quality - get a BCM upper: http://www.primaryarms.com/bravo-company-14.5in-5.56-lw-upper-bcm-urg-mid-14bfh-mcmr-13 Then you need to buy BCG, Charging handle, and optic too. But the upper is good to go out of the box. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old Glock guy 1,125 Posted April 6, 2018 I'm not a builder, mostly out of laziness. I bought a Stag Arms Model 2 off the shelf 5 or 6 years ago, and it's been flawless. I mostly shoot targets with it, but I've run it through full day classes several times, and can't recall ever having an issue with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diamondd817 823 Posted April 6, 2018 Can't comment on the Sig, but I do have a Stag 3. I had it a couple years now with zero issues, it's accurate, and it's easy to customize. There is a factory NJ compliant model 3 available, which is the one I have. I would recommend it for sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted April 6, 2018 @Mreed731 I’m with @GramGun79 and @High Exposure. My wife is currently building hers. It does 2 things, you get a better product for the $, and an intimate understanding of the platform. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mreed731 5 Posted April 6, 2018 1 hour ago, GramGun79 said: We are here to help...Tell us what your looking for and we guide you in the right direction. The members on this forum are good people. You can also go to your local gun shop, tell them your interested in building your own most likely they will have everything you need to build a lower and should be more than willing to give you some pointers. My budget is around $1000, give or take a couple hundred. Carbine length, as light as possible. Would probably but a red dot on it initially, then maybe a scope later. What I don't want to do is buy the budget model then feel like I need a better one right away, I would rather buy a better rifle to begin with even if it is somewhat bare bones. As far as building is concerned, it's not the actual building that overwhelms me as it is the shopping. Looks like some of the guys on here have already given me some solid advice on parts and how to go about it. That will help greatly. For me, the big advantage I see in building is not having to choose from what's available at the local shops then find out it's gone once you make the decision anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mreed731 5 Posted April 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Screwball said: You get a pistol grip... no bayonet lug, no collapsible stock (fixed stock), and no flash hider (pinned muzzle break), and no grenade launcher. You can look into the 2C laws regarding assault weapons, and read the list. You can have one of those features... likely going to be a pistol grip. What!!? No grenade launcher? I was at LGS the other day, salesman told me these compensator/muzzle brakes are nothing more than decoration. Is this right? Seems they can cause a lot of controversy for having no purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mreed731 5 Posted April 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Screwball said: I’m really not a fan of SIG ARs, especially paying more money for them. If it were me, I’d be looking at the barrel and bolt features over the specifics. Get a barrel in a twist rate you want (I prefer 1:8”), and get a quality BCG. If the Ruger gives you that, get that. If the Stag gives you that, get that. For the quality/warranty you get from major manufacturers... get the cheapest one and change out what you don’t like. The MOE stuff is nice, but you’ll likely change out the grip and stock... even if you are buying it for those parts. No sights? Are you going to put a red dot on? If so, invest in that... and when you get more funds, invest in BUIS, if wanted. It seems like I'm having a hard time finding anyone who is a fan of Sig AR's. Maybe that's the answer to part of my question right there. I think I would put a red dot on it initially. I'm a handgun guy, everything I know about the AR platform I have learned in the last 2 weeks reading and visiting a couple shops. I wouldn't know a good BCG from a bad one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Persona non grata 113 Posted April 6, 2018 I've had my Sig M400 for about a year now, and after 1000+ rounds, it's treated me well. If this is your first AR and have only shot one a few times prior, you probably don't know exactly what you want yet (I didn't know exactly what I wanted when I bought mine). My suggestion is to get a mid-priced AR for your first one, with the expectation that you'll do some upgrades, and build your second (you'll want a second, trust me). My biggest regret with my AR is that it's not a free float barrel. I would definitely recommend that you make that a "must have", simply because once you have that muzzle brake welded on, it's a bit of a pain to change the gas block and other hardware to free float. Edit: Now that I have a better idea of what I like, I'm thinking that my next AR will be free float, 18" with 1/8 twist, feature a mid-length gas system, and be chambered in .223 Wylde. The existing AR can remain as the carbine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mreed731 5 Posted April 6, 2018 1 hour ago, GramGun79 said: https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-14-5-Mid-Length-ENHANCED-Light-Weight-p/bcm-urg-mid-14bfh-elw-mcmr-13.htm Not sure what your budget is but this is a nice upper..Choose one of the comps in the muzzle brake drop down (NO FLASH HIDERS) build your lower and slap it on. You will have a solid gun. More than enough to suit your needs of a range toy/HD weapon. Does this come with the BCG and the dropdown is an upgrade? Or it dosen't come with one? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mreed731 5 Posted April 6, 2018 1 hour ago, High Exposure said: It get the Ruger over the Sig and the Stag. I’d take a S&W carbine over the other two. Building is easy - Buy the lower locally and build it with a Magpul Fixed Carbine Stock. Then buy this Upper: http://www.primaryarms.com/troy-industries-16-5-56-upper-w-13-m-lok-rail-and-flip-sights-supg-5mf-16bt-00 All you have to do then is swap the muzzle device out for the brake of your choice and have your local shop pin the new device on for you. 100% legal. If you want to spend a bit more, for a little better quality - get a BCM upper: http://www.primaryarms.com/bravo-company-14.5in-5.56-lw-upper-bcm-urg-mid-14bfh-mcmr-13 Then you need to buy BCG, Charging handle, and optic too. But the upper is good to go out of the box. I was under the impression that the Sig and Stag were a significant step up over the Ruger and S & W. Is that not really the case? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Screwball 483 Posted April 6, 2018 What!!? No grenade launcher? I was at LGS the other day, salesman told me these compensator/muzzle brakes are nothing more than decoration. Is this right? Seems they can cause a lot of controversy for having no purpose.Flash hiders being banned has no purpose... still have a sound coming out the end of the gun. Difference between it and a muzzle brake... the end of the muzzle brake is more closed off. Easy way to see if it is legal is if you can stick you pinky inside the muzzle device at the end facing downrange... it is a flash hider and would be a second feature (with pistol grip, an assault weapon). Certain calibers, I do like a compensator for. 5.56mm... really isn’t a huge deal to me.However, NJ law is NJ law... don’t follow it and get caught, try not to drop the soap at Trenton State.In regards to the grenade launcher, I have a rifle with one... Yugo M59/66A1 SKS. Use it to mount a training rifle grenade and launch it with blanks. Even if it had another feature, would be legal on that rifle... as it does not have a removable magazine. Just like you can have a collapsible stock, flash hider, and pistol grip on a bolt action rifle... but once it is semi-auto and has a detachable magazine, you have an assault weapon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mreed731 5 Posted April 6, 2018 https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-14-5-Mid-Length-ENHANCED-Light-Weight-p/bcm-urg-mid-14bfh-elw-mcmr-13.htm Not sure what your budget is but this is a nice upper..Choose one of the comps in the muzzle brake drop down (NO FLASH HIDERS) build your lower and slap it on. You will have a solid gun. More than enough to suit your needs of a range toy/HD weapon. Im confused about the length. I thought minimum in NJ was 16"?Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Persona non grata 113 Posted April 6, 2018 3 minutes ago, Mreed731 said: Im confused about the length. I thought minimum in NJ was 16"? Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk Minimum barrel length is 16", but a 14.5" barrel is good to go as long as it has a 1.5" long permanently pinned/welded muzzle brake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,634 Posted April 6, 2018 55 minutes ago, Mreed731 said: I was under the impression that the Sig and Stag were a significant step up over the Ruger and S & W. Is that not really the case? In my experience, the S&W would be my first choice over the rifles you mentioned. Even though it is less than Mil-spec, it is a better gun. I have seen quite a few Stags crap out at around 5000 rounds and the Sigs just don’t do it for me. Quality seems to be less than it should be for the price you are paying, and Sig in general just doesn’t inspire confidence over the last few years. I have shot a Ruger AR, it was fine. I have heard nothing but good things about them from people I trust to know what’s up. No, a break/comp isn’t necessary, but if you compare head to head you will notice a difference in felt recoil and/or muzzle rise vs a crowned barrel. I know I am much faster with my battle comp or SF MB556 than I am with a plain barrel. Assembling your own is nice, because you get exactly what you want, you usually spend a little less, and like @Zeke said, you learn more about the gun. As long as you stay with quality parts, you’ll be fine. The best way to know you are getting quality parts is to buy parts built by reputable manufacturers from sellers with a good reputation. Avoid EBay and Amazon, and remember if the price is too good to be true, it is. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,634 Posted April 6, 2018 14 minutes ago, Mreed731 said: Im confused about the length. I thought minimum in NJ was 16"? Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk That’s the same upper I linked to, just from a different vendor instead of BCM direct. Once a muzzle device is permanently attached, it becomes part of the barrel. So, a 14.4” barrel with a 1.5” brake or comp that is permanently attached (pinned and welded, or soldered with the appropriate materials) is considered a 16” barrel this satisfying state and federal regulations for barrel length and the NFA. I would also suggest going for a midlength gas system over a carbine gas system. I find the midlength to be more reliable on semi-auto only guns, and they subjectively shoot softer than the carbine length guns. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 6, 2018 The Sig M400 Elite Ti is a solid AR. Don't buy a stag or anything cheap for that matter, spend over $1000 if you're going to buy something rather than build. Colt LE6920 or Sig M400 are both solid entry level AR's and very little you'll need to do. If you can get the LE6920 with magpul furniture, do that, or the Sig M400, has plenty of tacticool features so you can spend your money on better things like ammo, a good optic and a trigger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GramGun79 226 Posted April 6, 2018 30 minutes ago, Mreed731 said: Im confused about the length. I thought minimum in NJ was 16"? Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk Minimum is 16" but with the muzzle device attached you can get 14.5 barrel and be at 16" plus when attached. I personally like 14.5 barrels with a pin and welded comp The upper from BCM or Primary Arms do not include the BCG. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mreed731 5 Posted April 6, 2018 1 hour ago, GramGun79 said: Minimum is 16" but with the muzzle device attached you can get 14.5 barrel and be at 16" plus when attached. I personally like 14.5 barrels with a pin and welded comp The upper from BCM or Primary Arms do not include the BCG. So, when looking at complete rifles, Ruger 556, etc. and they say 16" barrel in the specs but clearly have a muzzle brake in the photo, is the muzzle brake included in that spec? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 6, 2018 4 minutes ago, Mreed731 said: So, when looking at complete rifles, Ruger 556, etc. and they say 16" barrel in the specs but clearly have a muzzle brake in the photo, is the muzzle brake included in that spec? That depends, NJ law dictates that a flash hider and a threaded barrel to accept a suppressor are "scary features" so the way FFL's get around it is by Pin Welding a muzzle brake on. In many free states if you want a rifle with a barrel shorter than 16" without a tax stamp, you have to have muzzle device whether that be a flash hider or a muzzle brake P&W'd to the barrel as well. That being said either way meets the criteria in NJ. If you're looking at a rifle that it says the barrel is 16", that doesn't include the muzzle brake. Same goes with your stock, a collapsible stock is a "scary feature" so FFL's get around this by pinning an adjustable stock in one position or the rifle comes with a A2 style stock or another fixed stock. Though you can have a flash hider or threading if you give up your pistol grip and detachable magazine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted April 6, 2018 23 minutes ago, Mreed731 said: So, when looking at complete rifles, Ruger 556, etc. and they say 16" barrel in the specs but clearly have a muzzle brake in the photo, is the muzzle brake included in that spec? It has been my experience most manufacturers do not count muzzle devices in with barrel length. 14.5, 16 etc. the muzzle devices vary in length. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TokenEntry 293 Posted April 6, 2018 3 hours ago, Screwball said: Flash hiders being banned has no purpose... still have a sound coming out the end of the gun. Difference between it and a muzzle brake... the end of the muzzle brake is more closed off. Easy way to see if it is legal is if you can stick you pinky inside the muzzle device at the end facing downrange... it is a flash hider and would be a second feature (with pistol grip, an assault weapon). Certain calibers, I do like a compensator for. 5.56mm... really isn’t a huge deal to me. However, NJ law is NJ law... don’t follow it and get caught, try not to drop the soap at Trenton State. In regards to the grenade launcher, I have a rifle with one... Yugo M59/66A1 SKS. Use it to mount a training rifle grenade and launch it with blanks. Even if it had another feature, would be legal on that rifle... as it does not have a removable magazine. Just like you can have a collapsible stock, flash hider, and pistol grip on a bolt action rifle... but once it is semi-auto and has a detachable magazine, you have an assault weapon. It would be best to read the description on the mfg's website of the muzzle device for yourself to determine it's legality or ask one of the FFL's on this site. If the description states flash mitigation/suppression/reduction, it is most likely not legal in the eyes of NJ. Also, avoid calling the NJSP if possible about what is legal as a muzzle device as you may get misleading information. Absolutely do not take someone's advice on a public discussion forum where you may run into legal issues. Do you want to be known as the guy in the pinky test case? If you do go the route of wanting to put a muzzle brake/compensator on your rifle. I would recommend @remixer at Monmouth Arms to do the compliance work, he offers very reasonable pricing. My recommendation is if you plan to move out of NJ in the near future, use a muzzle nut/thread protector. However, it will still require pinning though. Some muzzle brakes will have very negative effect on shooters next to you when shooting indoors. This is due to the ports on the device diverting it's gases to the sides. Like others have recommended, build the rifle you want from the ground up. Get the lower receiver last if you plan on doing some of the compliance work yourself, like pinning/changing to a fixed stock and shaving off the bayonet lug. By doing these 2 simple things you can save 50.00 - 100.00. I highly recommend you go out to the range with friends that have AR's and shoot them. This would help you with what you may want in your build. I'm sure some forum members here are willing to let you test drive their AR's at the range. I have only purchased two AR's as complete rifles in the mid 90's. If YouTube had been around that time I'm sure I would have gone the DIY route. Regards, TokenEntry 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mreed731 5 Posted April 6, 2018 I think you guys have convinced me. I can build at my leisure instead of driving around to the few LGS in my area and hope they have something I like. Does anyone here know who in South Jersey carries lowers? I'm looking at Aero Precision for the upper. Seems to have the correct specs at a reasonable price with good reviews. Probably Magpul for furniture. What do you think? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,634 Posted April 6, 2018 Where are you located? Everything but the lower can be delivered directly to your home. Just the lower needs to be purchased from an FFL. I still recommend the complete Troy upper for $450 at Primary Arms I linked to above. I’ve been doing this for a minute or two and that is by far the best value for the dollar out there. If you assembled that upper yourself, you would be in for well over $1000. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites