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dilbert1967

NJ FID application kicked back

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My daughter applied for a NJ FID and P2P in early February of this year.   She takes medication for mild anxiety prescribed from a Nurse Practitioner she sees monthly.  Last week, a state trooper called her to say that her FID and P2P applications was "kicked back" and they require a letter from the Nurse Practitioner stating she is cleared to be around firearms.  The Nurse Practitioner refuses to write a letter.  I contacted one of the lawyers that ANJRPC has on retainer and he stated that she might try to get an independent evaluation from a psychologist and submit that instead of a letter.  If they reject the applications and evaluation, she would have 30 days to appeal.  The lawyer stated, of course, he would be more than happy to represent her in an appeal.

I've searched this forum for a similar situation but didn't find anything that came close.

Any ideas that would contribute to solving this would be more than welcome.

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Well, I'm not sure if this helps... but it appears that in NJ Nurse Practitioners (NP's) must report to a physician if they're prescribing meds. Soooo, the first thing I'd be doing is bypassing the NP and asking to speak to the physician in charge. Me? I'd be dropping an attorney's name, too... .and showing my disgust and willingness to pursue it in court AND with a complaint to the Board of Nursing & Medical Board if need be. If you look at this site - Dr's for Responsible Gun Ownership https://drgo.us/about/ - they go into a lot of detail about ethical boundary violations. I don't know if this situation would qualify...? It sounds like they're more talking about when healthcare professional's are asking about firearms when there's no need to (e.g., you go in for a common cold, and they ask "but do you have GUNS??")

But, certainly, if this NP doesn't believe your daughter is a risk to herself or others, I don't see how she could refuse to put those findings in writing! Is that some kind of violation in and of itself?  I'd be raising a stink about that too. Yeah, you might need that attorney. You could always get a pro 2A psychologist as the lawyer suggested... did he recommend one? 

Honestly? I hope this DRGO org (an offshoot of SAF btw)... gets their database fleshed out soon. Eventually, they intend to have a referral service of pro-2A docs around the country. I could see that would be VERY helpful in today's environment. Because frankly, I'd be hard-pressed to shovel any more hard-earned money at this NP. Again, unless she thinks your daughter is at risk, she should not be REFUSING to put her findings in writing. She may just be playing politics with your daughter's rights. Unacceptable.

 

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26 minutes ago, dilbert1967 said:

My daughter applied for a NJ FID and P2P in early February of this year.   She takes medication for mild anxiety prescribed from a Nurse Practitioner she sees monthly.  Last week, a state trooper called her to say that her FID and P2P applications was "kicked back" and they require a letter from the Nurse Practitioner stating she is cleared to be around firearms.  The Nurse Practitioner refuses to write a letter.  I contacted one of the lawyers that ANJRPC has on retainer and he stated that she might try to get an independent evaluation from a psychologist and submit that instead of a letter.  If they reject the applications and evaluation, she would have 30 days to appeal.  The lawyer stated, of course, he would be more than happy to represent her in an appeal.

I've searched this forum for a similar situation but didn't find anything that came close.

Any ideas that would contribute to solving this would be more than welcome.

Follow your lawyers advice. 

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I know nothing about the legalities, but the nurse practitioner may be balking at being on the hook as the one who declared 'yes, she's OK to be around firearms'. 

This was one of my concerns with this whole mental health gambit. A practitioner who may honestly believe you have no serious problem may not be willing to state to the police that you're good to go with a gun..

Two different things.

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23 minutes ago, Mrs. Peel said:

I'm presuming she was honest on the application form and that's where they got it.

There is no question on the 4473 asking about treatment for anxiety. Should have never mentioned a word about it...unless it is considered a mental illness now?  We ALL have anxiety at times dont we?  Are we ALL mental too?  F this state.

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3 hours ago, Tunaman said:

There is no question on the 4473 asking about treatment for anxiety. Should have never mentioned a word about it...unless it is considered a mental illness now?  We ALL have anxiety at times dont we?  Are we ALL mental too?  F this state.

The 4473 only gets completed when you're actually purchasing at the dealer. She was filing out the original FID application and P2P permits. The packet includes questions concerning mental health treatment and includes that background check and request for treatment. The form is called Consent for Mental Health Records Search. That search is what probably flagged her.

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17 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

Well, I'm not sure if this helps... but it appears that in NJ Nurse Practitioners (NP's) must report to a physician if they're prescribing meds. Soooo, the first thing I'd be doing is bypassing the NP and asking to speak to the physician in charge. Me? I'd be dropping an attorney's name, too... .and showing my disgust and willingness to pursue it in court AND with a complaint to the Board of Nursing & Medical Board if need be. If you look at this site - Dr's for Responsible Gun Ownership https://drgo.us/about/ - they go into a lot of detail about ethical boundary violations. I don't know if this situation would qualify...? It sounds like they're more talking about when healthcare professional's are asking about firearms when there's no need to (e.g., you go in for a common cold, and they ask "but do you have GUNS??")

But, certainly, if this NP doesn't believe your daughter is a risk to herself or others, I don't see how she could refuse to put those findings in writing! Is that some kind of violation in and of itself?  I'd be raising a stink about that too. Yeah, you might need that attorney. You could always get a pro 2A psychologist as the lawyer suggested... did he recommend one? 

Honestly? I hope this DRGO org (an offshoot of SAF btw)... gets their database fleshed out soon. Eventually, they intend to have a referral service of pro-2A docs around the country. I could see that would be VERY helpful in today's environment. Because frankly, I'd be hard-pressed to shovel any more hard-earned money at this NP. Again, unless she thinks your daughter is at risk, she should not be REFUSING to put her findings in writing. She may just be playing politics with your daughter's rights. Unacceptable.

 

I was unaware of a Nurse Practitioner having to practice under the auspices of a Medical Doctor.  I'll have to let her know to look into it. I wil have to check out Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership.  If it came to a court proceeding, she would have to stop there.  Neither of us have the resources to pursue it.  I would like to thank everyone who replied.  Its actually generated some additional ideas to look at....

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19 hours ago, dilbert1967 said:

My daughter applied for a NJ FID and P2P in early February of this year.   She takes medication for mild anxiety prescribed from a Nurse Practitioner she sees monthly.  Last week, a state trooper called her to say that her FID and P2P applications was "kicked back" and they require a letter from the Nurse Practitioner stating she is cleared to be around firearms.  The Nurse Practitioner refuses to write a letter.  I contacted one of the lawyers that ANJRPC has on retainer and he stated that she might try to get an independent evaluation from a psychologist and submit that instead of a letter.  If they reject the applications and evaluation, she would have 30 days to appeal.  The lawyer stated, of course, he would be more than happy to represent her in an appeal.

I've searched this forum for a similar situation but didn't find anything that came close.

Any ideas that would contribute to solving this would be more than welcome.

I take ADD medication, I disclosed it on my change of address form and part of the process was for my doctor to give them a character statement. If the NP refuses to do that, perhaps she needs to see a doctor for her treatment and he can get her one.

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After some digging, I found that NPs  are in fact "licensed independent practitioners" in NJ.  https://www.midlevelu.com/blog/nurse-practitioner-scope-practice-new-jersey

They also don't work directly under an M.D., they are simply required to "collaborate" with them either by phone or e-mail. And according to the article, by national standards, NJ NPs rank in the middle of  the states.

Interesting stuff......

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Im going to save you some time here and suggest you DO NOT contact the coordinating Psychiatrist in which the NP is working under. They will offer you nothing, as they do not have the ability. They do not know the patient, or evaluate them. 

I will also add, that instead of directly asking for clearance to own a fire arm. ASK the NP to write a formal evaluation in regards to the mental health of your daughter and specifically if she believe she is of any danger to herself or others, there is no need to mention why you need this letter. 

MY wife is a PNP, she would not write a letter that you ask, as it becomes a liability and scope of such a request is far to narrow.. She WOULD write a formal evaluation of the dangers the patient poses to herself or others, as it is already something documented in such cases. 

If the NP cannot give you a formal answer as to the dangers your daughter poses to herself or others, then she would be in neglect of her duties as a mental health professional, as this is a standard procedure in the diagnosis of the patients mental health. 

These notes are written rather often for kids who attend schools in ordered to be cleared so they can return.

 

I do believe if you are being treated for Anxiety, it would fall under some kind of Disorder in the DSMV. And is 100% considered a mental disorder.

 

I can try and get more details for you tonight on a possible solution to getting a formalized letter. 

 

You could try a clinician or privately practicing psychologist, I doubt they would write a letter with out having a few visits though.

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^^^THAT is excellent advice!  My Mom had her Masters in Psychiatric Nursing, and worked for Marlboro State hospital decades ago.  The statements written above are 100% in-line with my personal experience living with my Mom & the stories of how letters & treatment plans needed written.

Being cleared to go back into "normal society" means the patient exhibits no evidence of any threat to themselves or others.  Leave the firearm aspect out of the letter.

A different "tac" would be to get ahold of John Willett from NJSAFECON and ask him about the Shrink that paid to be there last September as a sponsor and is a specialist in the field of expertise involving this scenario.  After several visits, he feels confident writing the type of letter you need.  He's not judgmental, just helpful.  Last years list of sponsors will have him on it.  If I can find-out who he is & where he's from, I'll re-post.  Right now I've got the Rally on my radar screen.  Good luck!

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