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blksheep

Formal Instruction?

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11 hours ago, shooter28 said:

Anyone doing low light carbine/pistol with S&T in two weeks? I’ll be there

Pretty good chance I'm going to be at the Friday class.  (He's going to be giving it on both Friday and Saturday.)

Which one will you be attending?

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2 hours ago, RecessedFilter said:

It's last minute but Micky from CarryTrainer is hosting a handgun class this weekend at a range near Hackettstown. He's a great instructor and it'll be a great 2day class. I think he said there's 2 more spots open.

Drez:

 

Just curious - What range? Shongum is holding a USPSA match on Saturday. If his class is there, it must be on the indoor range. Looking at the weather, the USPSA match might get rained out.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

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4 hours ago, Pizza Bob said:

Drez:

 

Just curious - What range? Shongum is holding a USPSA match on Saturday. If his class is there, it must be on the indoor range. Looking at the weather, the USPSA match might get rained out.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

No it's not Shongum, Bob. Afaik, it's a private range exclusively used for LEO training normally.

It should rain pretty good up until tomorrow morning but his type if class isn't one that cancels for weather. Plus it'll feel good getting some training done during wet conditions and some simulated stress!

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If anyone is looking for a good low light class, Joe's Low Light Pistol/Carbine class was great. I will be signing up for next years for sure. 

Day started just after 12pm. We started with pistols first. We did all sorts of pistol drills that incorporated the use of a handheld light. Nothing super complicated, but just the basics of managing a light in one hand, while shooting, reloading,moving etc.. The thought was to practice in daylight to get the movements down and any problems laying flat before darkness falls. 

Next we stepped up to rifles and again drilled down on concepts and procedures for using a light to identify targets and engage. Since the lights are mounted on the rifle, there wasnt a lot of new information or procedures to introduce. Most of it was just practicing standard carbine drills, with some movement and "getting off the x" after you turned your light on and identified your target. 

Around 4:30/5, the sun went down and it started getting dark. There are no lights anywhere in the area (no moon that night either) so when it got dark, it was dark. We basically reverted back to the same drills we did earlier in the day and got a chance to see how our performance was affected with the low light/ no light. We did handguns first, then rifles. It was amazing to really get 1st hand experience shooting in those conditions. Night vision, Smoke and muzzle flash all played a role in how well you could see and shoot- things you dont think about or see during a regular range day. By 8pm, we were all done. 

All in all, great class. Learned a lot. Met some cool people with some really cool toys. Ill be back

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Nice AAR! Thanks for taking the time.

Every year I hope to take this class and every year something comes up.

There is nothing like shooting at night. If you don’t have the basics down, the Dark Monster sneaks up on you and smacks you pretty hard.

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Yea. It was pretty awesome. Definitely try to make it next year.

One guy had a really nice night vision setup on a helmet. I got to try it on at the end  and holy shit was it awesome. It was amazing what you could see. No wonder our guys absolutely wreak havoc at night. 

Just another note on weapons used (since a lot of people are curious what others shoot and how it works)

I used my Larue PredatAR with T1 and Wilson’d Beretta 92fs. From what I remember, other guys were had an assortment of BCM, Spikes and DD builds with Aimpoints and Holosun red dots. Varied barrel lengths from 10.5” to 16”, suppressed and unsuppressed. One guy had a H&K G36 chambered in 300blackout which was pretty slick. Handguns were mostly a glock variant, with at least half having a RMR or similar on top. I saw no pretty much no issues with any weapon systems. The H&K had a few problems in the beginning because the user tried to run with with almost no lube haha. Once it was properly lubed, no issues. The other issue was at the very end of class. A guy running a 11.5” SBR suppressed was having issues with FTF. I’m assuming it was just dirty from the blow back. It may have needed a cleaning or just more lube.

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On 4/13/2018 at 10:28 AM, shooter28 said:

Yea I saw that class. The class seems a bit expensive for what it is. The entire 1st day is in the class room and you only get to shoot the 2nd day. Im looking at Black Hat and Ghost Firearms training over in Lewistown, PA and its very little "classroom" time. Instead its learning out on the range the entire 2 days. Its also half the cost. 

Did 2 of black hats classes at lewiston.  Well worth it for the price.  The hotel right down the street is 100$ a night if you dont want to sleep at the range.  

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So I found out today that the guy that works with vickers shot one of the 3 gun matches I was at this past summer and guess what place he got? A couple up from last place!!! Umm yeah I should give them money to teach me how to shoot at the match I won. 

BTW, I'll "teach" every thing I know to anyone for the low low price of free, all in the hopes of getting you to beat me and motivating me to actually practice. 

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8 hours ago, louu said:

So I found out today that the guy that works with vickers shot one of the 3 gun matches I was at this past summer and guess what place he got? A couple up from last place!!! Umm yeah I should give them money to teach me how to shoot at the match I won. 

BTW, I'll "teach" every thing I know to anyone for the low low price of free, all in the hopes of getting you to beat me and motivating me to actually practice. 

I think some people go to classes to...

1. Learn how to shoot.

2.  Progress their skills farther.

3.  Pick the brain of other instructors to take something back when they teach.

Some of the classes mentioned also have curriculum built in regarding...

Terminal Ballistics

Low Light Shooting

Use of Force

Medical Training

I think gun games have relevance in the Fundamentals of shooting, shooting on the move and overall weapons manipulation.

However some stages are planned events with competitors having multiple dry runs knowing where or when to shoot at an exact point.  There really is no guess work.  See a target shoot a target.

Some of the classes have shoot-no shoot scenarios based on your OODA loop.  It's not as cut and dry, all the while trying to process complex shapes, numbers, letters, sounds and smells. 

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11 hours ago, blksheep said:

I think some people go to classes to...

1. Learn how to shoot.

2.  Progress their skills farther.

3.  Pick the brain of other instructors to take something back when they teach.

Some of the classes mentioned also have curriculum built in regarding...

Terminal Ballistics

Low Light Shooting

Use of Force

Medical Training

I think gun games have relevance in the Fundamentals of shooting, shooting on the move and overall weapons manipulation.

However some stages are planned events with competitors having multiple dry runs knowing where or when to shoot at an exact point.  There really is no guess work.  See a target shoot a target.

Some of the classes have shoot-no shoot scenarios based on your OODA loop.  It's not as cut and dry, all the while trying to process complex shapes, numbers, letters, sounds and smells. 

I'm translating that as "competition is easier than..." except the dude from the pricey classes couldn't do very well in easy mode then. Unless he's the guy I'm going to for the legal aspect or the medical aspect, I would kind of expect a base level of competence on the pew pew part. 

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20 hours ago, louu said:

So I found out today that the guy that works with vickers shot one of the 3 gun matches I was at this past summer and guess what place he got? A couple up from last place!!! Umm yeah I should give them money to teach me how to shoot at the match I won. 

BTW, I'll "teach" every thing I know to anyone for the low low price of free, all in the hopes of getting you to beat me and motivating me to actually practice. 

 Aren’t that what reviews are for? And everyone can have a bad day and dnf.. perspective

or he sucks, and the class is a sham. But I truly think comp is practice, or fun, unless you’re trying to make a career. Training can encompass different things.. those who can’t tend to coach. Does that mean all coaches that can’t are bad?

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1 hour ago, Zeke said:

 Aren’t that what reviews are for? And everyone can have a bad day and dnf.. perspective

or he sucks, and the class is a sham. But I truly think comp is practice, or fun, unless you’re trying to make a career. Training can encompass different things.. those who can’t tend to coach. Does that mean all coaches that can’t are bad?

I'm happy that we're talking about shooting and guns on here, I honestly never thought it would happen again lol. 

I'm not sure what your saying boo, I can't review the fact that someone that's thought of as some kind of gun God got beat by an average Joe that has never had any kind of "training" because it's not needed.

Second part of your quote. Yeah buddy, you don't have to be Arnold Swarchnagger of 1988 to be good at shooting just look at Rob Latham. You either have it or you don't and if your going to charge what they charge you better back your shit up. 

It all comes down to gun handling skills and putting rounds on target as fast as possible. Shooting is shooting don't matter if it's at a match or a tanning course. It also has to do with how well you can deal with stress/pressure. Personally, (as long as it's not at a match I'm running) once I get a gun in my hand it really calms me down and I believe I can do anything. 

Like I said again, shooting is shooting. It doesn't matter if it's at a match, tanning course or da streetz. Tactics, art projects while shooting, hanging upside down under your truck door and all that goofy stuff won't mean shit if someone that can actually shoot puts rounds on target first. 

How do you "learn" to actually shoot? By shooting. I said it before and I'll say it again, once you have the basics down there's nothing anyone can tell you that's going to magically turn you into Marcus lattrell. It's up to you to practice and put rounds down range, a lot. 

Don't try to sell me on that matches are rehearsed and that's why I beat the operator. If that was the case then anyone with a photographic memory that can't shoot will win. Obviously that's never happened. There's nothing special that happens at matches, the course of fire means nothing. It comes back to what I keep saying, shooting is shooting, you either have it or you don't. I can't stress enough that it's not something that can't be gotten if you don't have it. You just need to practice and shoot matches. It's always an even playing field, if the operator is a better shooter than me he should have won. 

Holy shit I just realized I typed to much and probably lost zeke 7 words in lol. I'm bored so I'm rambling on. I'm going to go Ben stoger dry fire. (YouTube it) 

I'll leave you with this, the guy who wins in a gun fight is the one that can shoot. I'd rather have to go up against mat best than Rob Latham in a gun fight. 

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2 hours ago, raz-0 said:

I'm translating that as "competition is easier than..." except the dude from the pricey classes couldn't do very well in easy mode then. Unless he's the guy I'm going to for the legal aspect or the medical aspect, I would kind of expect a base level of competence on the pew pew part. 

It's just different and the same in some respects.  To totally dismiss classes based on one experience, maybe someone needs to take a class?  The same way someone who just takes classes should go shoot a competition.

I teach Firearms everyday.  I have come across "experts" almost on a daily basis.  Just cause someone shoots extremely well doesn't make them a good teacher of people.  The same way a good teacher of people sometimes don't come in first in a Competition.

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1 minute ago, blksheep said:

It's just different and the same in some respects.  To totally dismiss classes based on one experience, maybe someone needs to take a class?  The same way someone who just takes classes should go shoot a competition.

I teach Firearms everyday.  I have come across "experts" almost on a daily basis.  Just cause someone shoots extremely well doesn't make them a good teacher of people.  The same way a good teacher of people sometimes don't come in first in a Competition.

Balance! 

my point @louu

 

4 minutes ago, louu said:

I'm happy that we're talking about shooting and guns on here, I honestly never thought it would happen again lol. 

I'm not sure what your saying boo, I can't review the fact that someone that's thought of as some kind of gun God got beat by an average Joe that has never had any kind of "training" because it's not needed.

Second part of your quote. Yeah buddy, you don't have to be Arnold Swarchnagger of 1988 to be good at shooting just look at Rob Latham. You either have it or you don't and if your going to charge what they charge you better back your shit up. 

It all comes down to gun handling skills and putting rounds on target as fast as possible. Shooting is shooting don't matter if it's at a match or a tanning course. It also has to do with how well you can deal with stress/pressure. Personally, (as long as it's not at a match I'm running) once I get a gun in my hand it really calms me down and I believe I can do anything. 

Like I said again, shooting is shooting. It doesn't matter if it's at a match, tanning course or da streetz. Tactics, art projects while shooting, hanging upside down under your truck door and all that goofy stuff won't mean shit if someone that can actually shoot puts rounds on target first. 

How do you "learn" to actually shoot? By shooting. I said it before and I'll say it again, once you have the basics down there's nothing anyone can tell you that's going to magically turn you into Marcus lattrell. It's up to you to practice and put rounds down range, a lot. 

Don't try to sell me on that matches are rehearsed and that's why I beat the operator. If that was the case then anyone with a photographic memory that can't shoot will win. Obviously that's never happened. There's nothing special that happens at matches, the course of fire means nothing. It comes back to what I keep saying, shooting is shooting, you either have it or you don't. I can't stress enough that it's not something that can't be gotten if you don't have it. You just need to practice and shoot matches. It's always an even playing field, if the operator is a better shooter than me he should have won. 

Holy shit I just realized I typed to much and probably lost zeke 7 words in lol. I'm bored so I'm rambling on. I'm going to go Ben stoger dry fire. (YouTube it) 

I'll leave you with this, the guy who wins in a gun fight is the one that can shoot. I'd rather have to go up against mat best than Rob Latham in a gun fight. 

Ya totally to long

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13 hours ago, Zeke said:

Very different things.. games vs bad guys. 

This is where I disagree. At those training courses you're not shooting at bad guys, your shooting at paper targets, usually at very close distances and those paper targets don't shoot back either just like a match. If you're going to charge me money and tell me how to shoot you better be better than me, but from my example above the guy didn't even come close to me. I feel kind of bad because I don't even know who this guy is. I would like to meet him if he comes again, maybe give him a few free pointers LOL.

High exposure you're my boy so don't get offended but I'm going to use you for an example to. Last time we shot a match together you were shooting an open gun, I was shooting iron sights and guess who beat who out of you and me? (it was me for those that don't know) And if I remember correctly that was the day I shot a match with a pulled groin muscle that hurt so bad I couldn't even see straight, not that I'm one to make excuses. Everybody knows how hardcore you are about these training courses. 

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My biggest gripe with taking these types of courses is if you live in New Jersey it doesn't matter because you cannot carry a gun. Your guns have to remain in your house while you cannot even access them for your driveway when you get home. 

That all could change if you get off this forum for 60 seconds and call Mitch McConnell today and everyday at

202-224-2541

And tell him to get HR 38 voted on as fast as possible. I called twice yesterday I'm going to call twice today and at least twice every day until they go on their Christmas Vacation. I put spaces there so you can copy and paste the phone number easier.

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1 hour ago, louu said:

This is where I disagree. At those training courses you're not shooting at bad guys, your shooting at paper targets, usually at very close distances and those paper targets don't shoot back either just like a match. If you're going to charge me money and tell me how to shoot you better be better than me, but from my example above the guy didn't even come close to me. I feel kind of bad because I don't even know who this guy is. I would like to meet him if he comes again, maybe give him a few free pointers LOL.

High exposure you're my boy so don't get offended but I'm going to use you for an example to. Last time we shot a match together you were shooting an open gun, I was shooting iron sights and guess who beat who out of you and me? (it was me for those that don't know) And if I remember correctly that was the day I shot a match with a pulled groin muscle that hurt so bad I couldn't even see straight, not that I'm one to make excuses. Everybody knows how hardcore you are about these training courses. 

All fine and all good bro. No worries.

I was shooting a stock Glock with an RDS (Shooting an RDS has its own learning curve that I am working on) and full power .40 ammo. That is a bit different than an open gun. That was the second comp I have shot in I think 3 years or so and I don’t think I did that poorly all things considered. But those are just reasons. All that being said, you probably would have beat me with straight irons too.

Ultimately, there are quite a few reasons for the fact that your performance was better than mine, but the main one is that you and I shoot for two different realities.

They are not equal. The work that goes into them is not the same. Gun fighting is not competition shooting. Yes there is some overlap and some skills translate directly from one to another, but not all - and for good reason. 

I use the comps as practice, not competition. I’m not trying to win - I’m trying to work on a particular skill. (Don’t get me wrong, the A type in me wants my name to be at the top, but that’s not the driving force to participate in the competition) I simply try to do better at this comp than I did at the last one. I try not to alter my fundamentals to fit the game I am playing. Instead I try to reinforce my fundamentals to enhance the skills I need for my reality.

Louu, even if I had the time and money to shoot as much as you do, I wouldn’t choose to shoot the same kind of disciplines you do. Unfortunately as it stands now, if I make 8 comps a year, I consider that a win. And I try to squeeze every ounce of learning I can out of each comp.

As for trainers - they are not all created equal. You have to vet your trainers. You have to tailor your practice and training to your end goal. You have to make sure your spending money and time on what gets you closer to your stated purpose.

I wouldn’t pay Rob Leatham to teach me CQB. I also wouldn’t pay JD Potynski to train me to be a grand master class IDPA pistol shooter.

You don’t take Flying Lessons to prepare for a Motorcycle Road Test. 

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When I shoot a match I tend to blaze away since I know there are no friendlies. And usually I end up with a decent score because of that (even when the no-shoots get ventilated). I can't begrudge someone a little less speed, though, because they train to make absolutely sure of their targets and missing isn't an option.

 

I don't get fired or go to jail for missing or shooting the no-shoots

 

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It’s more than just shoot/no shoot.

If I approached a shooting port in a barricade during a comp the same way I would approach an aperture on the real world - say on the hunt for a bad guy where someone on the other side of that aperture may try to kill me - it would take me 5 minutes to complete a stage.

In the real world you don’t get to walk the stages and memorize where any targets or shooting positions are in the real world. There is a completely different OODA loop going on when you know where each target is and you can choose from what position you engage them in an order to maximize efficiency and speed as your switch from target to target and position to position.

It may be faster to shoot an array of targets from right to left from the left side of cover in a comp because of how you gamed the stage. In reality, I’m never going to expose myself to an exposed shootable threat on my left a pass so I can engage a second shootable threat to my right and work my way back to the first one.

Keeping things like this in mind, I can see how a self-defense minded shooter that is training to fight with a gun - not just shoot - can come in at the bottom of the standings.

Don’t get me wrong - I think everyone that carries a gun for self defense should shoot comps. You experience a little stress. You get to work on lining up the sights and working the trigger while performing draws and reloads. This is all good practice. But you have to put it in context for what you are doing.

I am not saying “Shooting a comp will get you killed in the streets”. Far from it. Competition and gun games will absolutely enhance your abilities. I’m saying you have to be disciplined to pick the right abilities to work on and know there is a difference between what you do on the range and what happens in the real world. 

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Here's a good three minute video that illustrates the difference between a competitor and self defense shooter going through a course of fire:

Hey, my 3000th post!  I kind of expected balloons and fireworks, or something like that. 

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I would say that there is even one step further removed between a person that carries a gun for Self Defense and one that applies their skills to actively pursuing armed individuals when looked at from the context of competition.

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