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Ray Ray

I didn't want to, but.......

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3 hours ago, Paulie Buffo said:

We need a national single point of contact (can't really be the NRA because the "left" has successfully tainted them).

I have concur on the Left successfully smeared the NRA, I noticed the Left trying to do this during the Bush years, but they finally became successful during the Obama years.  And it isn't gonna change.

Let's face it, the Left hates the NRA.  Very little because of guns, but because basically, it's the last big organization that heavily leans Right, that can get out the vote, on occasion with Republican voters. 

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Still eating our own I see.
Lets look at something here.

Allegedly how many gun owners reside in NJ?
How many active members we have here on this forum?
How many do you think are on FB? Or in the other orgs that are here?

Do you really think bitching at each other helps?
Do you really think it is possible to rally 10s of 1000s here for our cause?

You say there may have been a few 100 at the rallies. Lets face it, its probably the people here and/or FB whether member or association of one. Facts are the facts.

I get tired of the cheap attempts to belittle anyone here. Don’t make me point fingers.
The numbers that come out or chip in in other ways are OUR majority and constantly trying to tell us we are lazy, don’t give a shit, blah blah blah, will not help.
If everyone did show up that are constantly here arguing the point, you might be lucky to get another 100 or so to attend.

We are in fact, NOT the majority. We, in these forums are the minority with a bunch of armchair warriors that sit about the same height in a chair like Morning Joe.

Create ideas to get people that have no clue together, cause quite frankly, I’m effing sick of these internal pissing matches. It will never help our cause.

This place is like watching CNN lately. People just love using each other as chew toys.







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43 minutes ago, Zeke said:

When has it become the responsibility of someone else to make it easy for you to stand up for your civil liberties and constitutional rights?

100%

Excellent point

There should have been 50,000 people there from all sides of the political spectrum. 

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Let us not forget, we are a Republic.  As such laws protect the minority.  No matter how few show up to support a rally to protect individual rights or how many take to the streets advocating against that individual right.  It doesn't matter if the majority feels a certain way.  For now, the minority is protected.

As Benjamin Franklin said, "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"

 

 

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3 hours ago, 45Doll said:

I don't honestly believe that even 5,000 attending a 2A rally in New Jersey would make any difference at all. Our Democrat legislature is committed. And they don't pass these laws because Cease Fire NJ or Moms Demand Action have many organized speakers. Those groups just give cover and make it seem that what the legislature is doing is 'common sense' and has public approval.

Want a rally that would make a difference? After they pass the mag limit law, have 5,000 NJ gun owners mob Trenton waving their old 15-round magazines in the air. And make the police deal with them. That would make a difference.

If you could get 5,000 or more NJ gun owners to do that. I'm not betting on it.

Sad to say, but you're 100% correct. At this point, the only thing left for us is civil disobedience. 

I wonder, just how cheaply can someone fabricate an AR-15 magazine? I know you can get cheapo ones for like $10. But how about just an even crappier made, basically folded sheet metal with junk springs, capable of holding 11 rounds and slapped into an AR (actual reliability be damned), could it be made for $1-2 each? And handed out by the dozen as a form of protest? 

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12 minutes ago, gleninjersey said:

Let us not forget, we are a Republic.  As such laws protect the minority.  No matter how few show up to support a rally to protect individual rights or how many take to the streets advocating against that individual right.  It doesn't matter if the majority feels a certain way.  For now, the minority is protected.

As Benjamin Franklin said, "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"

 

 

And communist writers wrote that the revolution is constant, it is always ongoing and an inevitable part of human progress. If not today, tomorrow, if not tomorrow, the day after. After each goal is realized, a new one is immediately set. Mankind exists in a state of constant revolution.

This is the mindset of our political opponents. They don't take a day off, let alone worry about what a 250 year old piece of paper says. 

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1 minute ago, mossburger said:

Sad to say, but you're 100% correct. At this point, the only thing left for us is civil disobedience. 

I wonder, just how cheaply can someone fabricate an AR-15 magazine? I know you can get cheapo ones for like $10. But how about just an even crappier made, basically folded sheet metal with junk springs, capable of holding 11 rounds and slapped into an AR (actual reliability be damned), could it be made for $1-2 each? And handed out by the dozen as a form of protest? 

If you cannot get the masses to protest peacefully, you’re straight up nuts to think they will take arms.

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Got me pondering. What is the goal of any rally, no matter the cause?   Obviously to gain public visibility but to what end?  It seems mainly it is to influence politicians, or the public enlarge.  Given that goal, are rallies really beneficial for 2A orgs in the state of NJ?  They don’t seem to influence our “representatives” in mass.  The groupthink at that level and apathy of the voters (unless it is pot or free shit) is too high.  Also, given the complicit media, rallies aren’t really helpful at influencing the public. The media simply won’t pick up a neutral or our side of that story to the point of educating viewers.  It’s like cold-calling on a public street  

Maybe smaller, localized rallies would be helpful, but not in Trenton. Target key districts and reps. Go to our their local offices and hold rallyies.  Even that I’m not sure would help but is probably better than swimming upstream in Trenton’s sewer. 

And for getting our message out there, approach groups that may be more neutral and go talk. Offer free range time or something. Boy/Girl Scouts. Fire dept Explorer posts, etc. 

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15 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

Got me pondering. What is the goal of any rally, no matter the cause?   Obviously to gain public visibility but to what end?  It seems mainly it is to influence politicians, or the public enlarge.  Given that goal, are rallies really beneficial for 2A orgs in the state of NJ?  They don’t seem to influence our “representatives” in mass.  The groupthink at that level and apathy of the voters (unless it is pot or free shit) is too high.  Also, given the complicit media, rallies aren’t really helpful at influencing the public. The media simply won’t pick up a neutral or our side of that story to the point of educating viewers.  It’s like cold-calling on a public street  

Maybe smaller, localized rallies would be helpful, but not in Trenton. Target key districts and reps. Go to our their local offices and hold rallyies.  Even that I’m not sure would help but is probably better than swimming upstream in Trenton’s sewer. 

And for getting our message out there, approach groups that may be more neutral and go talk. Offer free range time or something. Boy/Girl Scouts. Fire dept Explorer posts, etc. 

All these great minds.... and yet look at the state of the state we are in.

 

Mipa is turning in his grave

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16 minutes ago, Zeke said:

All these great minds.... and yet look at the state of the state we are in.

 

Mipa is turning in his grave

Not sure you’re point. It’s too easy to point fingers, criticize, or whatever. The reality is people will put in what they can and it takes all types for an effort to be successful. The worst thing any effort can do is turn away people just because they can’t dedicate 100%. Would you rather have 100 people at 10% or 2 at 100?

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47 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

The media

Speaking of the media, did anyone ever see an article written by that APP reporter, Katie Park, after all her questions last month? Was she at the rally by any chance to hear it first hand?

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26 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

Not sure you’re point. It’s too easy to point fingers, criticize, or whatever. The reality is people will put in what they can and it takes all types for an effort to be successful. The worst thing any effort can do is turn away people just because they can’t dedicate 100%. Would you rather have 100 people at 10% or 2 at 100?

Fair point, but if you are not working hand in hand to fix the problem, should you even have an opinion?

or a platform to pontificate? 

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12 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

Speaking of the media, did anyone ever see an article written by that APP reporter, Katie Park, after all her questions last month? Was she at the rally by any chance to hear it first hand?

No, not yet. But, I do know for a fact she has been interviewing people, visiting ranges, etc. Be patient! :D

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4 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Fair point, but if you are not working hand in hand to fix the problem, should you even have an opinion?

You don't want to trash the 1st to protect the 2nd, do you? Of COURSE people are allowed to have and express opinions... as long as it's done without unwarranted, baseless personal attacks, I'm personally fine with it. Life should be an open marketplace of ideas. Besides, who's to say that the busiest person, who can never make an "event", is not the one to contribute the best idea... and then someone else picks it up and runs with it?

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7 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Fair point, but if you are not working hand in hand to fix the problem, should you even have an opinion?

or a platform to pontificate? 

Your post assumes assumes a coordinated strategy. There have been numerous threads here showing/questioning that coordination.  We can only work together when that strategy is defined and communicated. 

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11 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Fair point, but if you are not working hand in hand to fix the problem, should you even have an opinion?

or a platform to pontificate? 

Edit to add, if our strategy/approach cannot survive internal criticism or opinions how the hell will it survive the onslaught from the antis, the media, and our own government.  We shouldn’t eat or own, by any means,  but thst kind of thing builds defense, flexibility, and makes the overall effort stronger. 

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Just now, voyager9 said:

Your post assumes assumes a coordinated strategy. There have been numerous threads here showing/questioning that coordination.  We can only work together when that strategy is defined and communicated. 

That insider trading leaked crap is part of the problem. Goal oriented, not pride oriented. Everyone can do it better from their couch... and look at our results..  loosing ground. 

 

5 minutes ago, Mrs. Peel said:

You don't want to trash the 1st to protect the 2nd, do you? Of COURSE people are allowed to have and express opinions... as long as it's done without unwarranted, baseless personal attacks, I'm personally fine with it. Life should be an open marketplace of ideas. Besides, who's to say that the busiest person, who can never make an "event", is not the one to contribute the best idea... and then someone else picks it up and runs with it?

It’s really pathetic to talk about building a fire when you are freezing. Jus build the fire! Regardless who lights the match 

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3 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

Edit to add, if our strategy/approach cannot survive internal criticism or opinions how the hell will it survive the onslaught from the antis, the media, and our own government.  We shouldn’t eat or own, by any means,  but thst kind of thing builds defense, flexibility, and makes the overall effort stronger. 

You are either part of the solution or the problem. Professionalism is not public, that’s pulling people aside and saying “yo, let’s fix this “. “ I don’t wanna throw you under the bus, but I see a problem here”.

 

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America is too polarized. There is nothing we are going to do to change any hearts or minds. I'm not sure there is a middle any more.

I am 100% in support of the second amendment. If someone shoots up my house, someone shoots up my church, someone shoots up my mall, it will not change my point of view. I want the chance to be able to defend myself.

I imagine the other side feels the same. There's no more reasoning.

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3 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

On a forum there is a fine line between internal disagreements and “airing dirty laundry” given the public/private nature of the medium. 

Still, what’s the goal? Do we here not share a goal? V9 I’ve been to more meet up s then you( you never show, I understand). I’ve organized more meet ups then you.( you never show, I understand)

But as a ( you never show, I understand)

Should I take your criticism? What’s your goal? 

And to @Ray Ray‘s credit. Guys, gals, stfu. Put your money where your mouth is. 

And @Mrs. Peel you can opine under 1 a all day long. But talk rilly is cheap. And that’s my point.

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16 minutes ago, Handyman said:

America is too polarized. There is nothing we are going to do to change any hearts or minds. I'm not sure there is a middle any more.

I am 100% in support of the second amendment. If someone shoots up my house, someone shoots up my church, someone shoots up my mall, it will not change my point of view. I want the chance to be able to defend myself.

I imagine the other side feels the same. There's no more reasoning.

Ehhh... I'm not sure I agree with that!  I hold viewpoints that probably align more with most Dems. There are ALWAYS people in the middle who can be swayed. I actually "sat in" on a meeting a few years ago just to check out a range. I was (truly) feeling trepidation... would there be "gun nuts" there? Imagine my surprise when the guy next to me was a PhD level researcher at a pharma company, the young guy on the other side was a clean-cut looking outdoors enthusiast, etc. - I never saw a more normal group of people in my life. The point is, a lot of people hold negative opinions about firearms until they actually TRY IT OUT and learn  more. 

4 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Still, what’s the goal? Do we here not share a goal? V9 I’ve been to more meet up s then you( you never show, I understand). I’ve organized more meet ups then you.( you never show, I understand)

But as a ( you never show, I understand)

Should I take your criticism? What’s your goal? 

And to @Ray Ray‘s credit. Guys, gals, stfu. Put your money where your mouth is. 

And @Mrs. Peel you can opine under 1 a all day long. But talk rilly is cheap. And that’s my point.

Whoa! Are you f'n serious? Getting a bit big for your britches, Zeke!  Not that I need to explain myself to ANYONE, but I have made monetary donations, I made the last rally (as you know), I just signed up to do a solo volunteer project for CNJFO, I've regularly written and made calls to legislators, and I've got another 2A thing cooking on the side that YOU don't even know about... but now you're going to "call me out" because I happened to not attend this ONE single event? Ummm.... NOPE! Not buying into that... AT ALL! 

Listen, I know you... and I really do appreciate your spirit and your passion... but trying to insult or lay a guilt trip on anyone the day after an event they didn't attend is just simply the WRONG approach. You may not realize it, but it's highly divisive... and it does NOT encourage attendance at the NEXT event. You need to chill!

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12 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Still, what’s the goal? Do we here not share a goal? V9 I’ve been to more meet up s then you( you never show, I understand). I’ve organized more meet ups then you.( you never show, I understand)

But as a ( you never show, I understand)

Should I take your criticism? What’s your goal? 

And to @Ray Ray‘s credit. Guys, gals, stfu. Put your money where your mouth is. 

And @Mrs. Peel you can opine under 1 a all day long. But talk rilly is cheap. And that’s my point.

You’re right. You are much more active than I (for multiple reason). Does that mean I don’t get an opinion?  Or that my opinion is worth less than yours?  No. But as they say, opinions are like assholes.   But what it does mean is that if I’m not willing to put in the effort to realize my opinion then the organization has no requirement to listen to it.  “You should do it this way” opinions almost deserve to be ignored. 

And I give all the credit in the world to you, Ray, Peel and all those that are doing what I cannot. 

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27 minutes ago, Handyman said:

America is too polarized. There is nothing we are going to do to change any hearts or minds. I'm not sure there is a middle any more.

I agree with this. The MSM has helped draw those divided lines. I believe there are very few fence sitters left. I personally know of not a single person who can see both sides of the argument. They're on one side or the other.

30 minutes ago, Handyman said:

I want the chance to be able to defend myself.

That's another area of division. The anti-gunners feel that's the job of LEO, you don't need to defend yourself. No matter how many times I use examples of "when SECONDS count, cops are only MINUTES away" and show repeated examples of that, the anti-gunners could care less, until it happen to them. Then they cry why it took so long for the cops to get there.

33 minutes ago, Handyman said:

There's no more reasoning.

Sadly, that's also true. We're heading to CW II, be prepared.

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1 minute ago, Mrs. Peel said:

I actually "sat in" on a meeting a few years ago

A few years ago is not TODAY... A lot has changed in some minds the last few years. Social media has had a negative affect on a large group of snowflakes.

Just look at the level of national protests the last year since Trump was elected. Do you ever remember this many different groups marching for crazy causes 5 - 10 years or more ago? The "sheep" today can be led extremely easily.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

A few years ago is not TODAY... A lot has changed in some minds the last few years. Social media has had a negative affect on a large group of snowflakes.

Just look at the level of national protests the last year since Trump was elected. Do you ever remember this many different groups marching for crazy causes 5 - 10 years or more ago? The "sheep" today can be led extremely easily.

I hear you, but there are still people trying out shooting for the first time all across this state and country, buying their first guns, etc. All is not lost. 

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This is so easy to solve.  Put your money where your mouth is.  
Plenty here talk a big game, but when push comes to shove "something always comes up".


Stop chewing with your mouth open.
You nor anyone else knows how others partake. [emoji57]
Hava burger.......[emoji488]


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