Jump to content
SJG

NJ Senate LIve on Gun Bills

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, DirtyDigz said:

So are they going to look at the pistol purchase permit registry, determine which pistols likely were sold with 15rd magazines, cross-reference with the (lack of) 15 round magazine firearm registrations, and start to send out violation letters?

They should have Pistol Purchase Permits on file going back to 1966!

I would hate to be the state employee tasked with putting this information into a database. Add to it all pistol purchases made prior to 1966, war trophies brought back from two world wars, people who had the poor judgment to actually move here from some other state, etc. etc. (Including me, of course. I was born in Trenton, moved to America and then moved back to the People's Republic b/c of elderly family members.) Then there is a 10 year period during the Clinton AWB when firearms were sold with no more than 10 round magazines. And people move.

Finding guns based on a database of PPPs would cost the state a lot of money it doesn't have and it wouldn't be anywhere near accurate.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Bob2222 said:

They should have Pistol Purchase Permits on file going back to 1966!

I would hate to be the state employee tasked with putting this information into a database. Add to it all pistol purchases made prior to 1966, war trophies brought back from two world wars, people who had the poor judgment to actually move here from some other state, etc. etc. (Including me, of course. I was born in Trenton, moved to America and then moved back to the People's Republic b/c of elderly family members.) Then there is a 10 year period during the Clinton AWB when firearms were sold with no more than 10 round magazines. And people move.

Finding guns based on a database of PPPs would cost the state a lot of money it doesn't have and it wouldn't be anywhere near accurate.

 

Do you think the current state leadership is concerned with financial efficiency?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we need some sanctuary counties here in NJ. It would be interesting.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-effingham-county-gun-sanctuary-20180417-story.html

2 more things, 

1st: Sussex, Warren and Hunterdon counties should vote to secede from NJ and join PA. 

2nd: (from my family in PA) People from NJ - when you move to PA please leave your NJ liberal attitude back in NJ. We don't want it here. Firearms bills being pushed now in PA seem a lot like the ones being passed in NJ. Your leaving NJ for a reason. The whole east coast of PA is becoming NJ west. Please stop it. You ruined your state, don't come here and ruin ours.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Paulie Buffo said:

...

2 more things, 

1st: Sussex, Warren and Hunterdon counties should vote to secede from NJ and join PA. 

2nd: (from my family in PA) People from NJ - when you move to PA please leave your NJ liberal attitude back in NJ. We don't want it here. Firearms bills being pushed now in PA seem a lot like the ones being passed in NJ. Your leaving NJ for a reason. The whole east coast of PA is becoming NJ west. Please stop it. You ruined your state, don't come here and ruin ours.

As a Hunterdon resident, I'd vote for that in a heartbeat!!! My property taxes, car insurance AND health insurance would all plummet dramatically. Oh, happy day! Dare to dream.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Paulie Buffo said:

I think we need some sanctuary counties here in NJ. It would be interesting

Don't we already have something like that, doesn't Jersey have high crime rate areas that over years never get better, maybe worse? Areas you would never drive through. Dealers that never get arrested. People die with no one ever getting arrested. Maybe that's another version of sanctuary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bob2222 said:

They should have Pistol Purchase Permits on file going back to 1966!

I would hate to be the state employee tasked with putting this information into a database. Add to it all pistol purchases made prior to 1966, war trophies brought back from two world wars, people who had the poor judgment to actually move here from some other state, etc. etc. (Including me, of course. I was born in Trenton, moved to America and then moved back to the People's Republic b/c of elderly family members.) Then there is a 10 year period during the Clinton AWB when firearms were sold with no more than 10 round magazines. And people move.

Finding guns based on a database of PPPs would cost the state a lot of money it doesn't have and it wouldn't be anywhere near accurate.

 

They've already have this info on file. Based on the number that are "registered" (I.E. handguns.) It would take a minute to spit out the report. 

"There were 57,507 firearms registered in New Jersey, according to a 2017 annual report – up from  55,672 in 2016, 54,612 in 2015, 51,670 in 2014, 50,712 in 2013, 48,989 in 2012 and 46,605 in 2011."

 

Source:  http://nj1015.com/murphy-shoots-for-new-tax-on-gun-purchases-in-nj/?trackback=tsmclip

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Parker said:

They've already have this info on file. Based on the number that are "registered" (I.E. handguns.) It would take a minute to spit out the report. 

"There were 57,507 firearms registered in New Jersey, according to a 2017 annual report – up from  55,672 in 2016, 54,612 in 2015, 51,670 in 2014, 50,712 in 2013, 48,989 in 2012 and 46,605 in 2011."

 

Source:  http://nj1015.com/murphy-shoots-for-new-tax-on-gun-purchases-in-nj/?trackback=tsmclip

Are the PPP copies entered into a SP database now? When did that begin? (Bill Gates was 11 years old in 1966.)

I didn't think gun registration has ever been required in the state -- historically, the restriction has been placed at the point of purchase since 1966.

My FPID card was hand-typed out with an old typewriter and I think the PPPs were, too. (That may or may not have changed, but it would have required logging my PPPs into a database manually. With abundant opportunity for errors.)

A few years ago Loretta Weinberg said she couldn't even find the numbers of FPIDs issued by municipalities and introduced legislation requiring the totals be released. I haven't read anything more so either she lost interest or the numbers show something that doesn't support her agenda -- my guess would be that the most FPIDs per capita are found in the safest towns and counties.

Using the US Census Bureau population estimate of a New Jersey population of 9,005,644, the 55,672 number would work out to 0.618% -- less than 1% -- of New Jerseyans purchased a handgun in 2016.

According to the FBI, there were 90,034 NICS background checks in New Jersey in 2015, 121,853 in 2016 and 103,739 in 2017. (Pennsylvania NICS numbers were 993,429, 1,143,220 and 1,062,651 for 2015, 2016 and 2017 respectively).

Guesstimating the New Jersey pistol purchase number another way, if 10% of New Jerseyans own at least one handgun and buy a new pistol on average every 20 years, that's about 45,000 new handguns every year. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, mossburger said:

Trust me, no state, county, or local department is going to make their officers go out on the streets with 10 round magazines. 

I agree it's unlikely that there would be any state restrictions on department-issued firearms, but the Sig p220 has a standard 8-round magazine.

Some PDs still seem to use them.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites



Are the PPP copies entered into a SP database now? When did that begin? (Bill Gates was 11 years old in 1966.)
I didn't think gun registration has ever been required in the state -- historically, the restriction has been placed at the point of purchase since 1966.
My FPID card was hand-typed out with an old typewriter and I think the PPPs were, too. (That may or may not have changed, but it would have required logging my PPPs into a database manually. With abundant opportunity for errors.)
A few years ago Loretta Weinberg said she couldn't even find the numbers of FPIDs issued by municipalities and introduced legislation requiring the totals be released. I haven't read anything more so either she lost interest or the numbers show something that doesn't support her agenda -- my guess would be that the most FPIDs per capita are found in the safest towns and counties.
Using the US Census Bureau population estimate of a New Jersey population of 9,005,644, the 55,672 number would work out to 0.618% -- less than 1% -- of New Jerseyans purchased a handgun in 2016.
According to the FBI, there were 90,034 NICS background checks in New Jersey in 2015, 121,853 in 2016 and 103,739 in 2017. (Pennsylvania NICS numbers were 993,429, 1,143,220 and 1,062,651 for 2015, 2016 and 2017 respectively).
Guesstimating the New Jersey pistol purchase number another way, if 10% of New Jerseyans own at least one handgun and buy a new pistol on average every 20 years, that's about 45,000 new handguns every year. 
 


Looking at those numbers it is highly unlikely there are a million Firearms owners in NJ. 250,000 who are not former or current law enforcement is more likely. The NICS and Handgun purchase permits are pretty steady each year and are likely the same 100,000 people.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Bob2222 said:

Are the PPP copies entered into a SP database now? When did that begin? (Bill Gates was 11 years old in 1966.)

Since the 90's, and the database is online.  

You could always take former Chief of Tenafly Bruno's advice and contact the chief in your town and ask to see the files. 

https://www.oathkeepers.org/nj-sheriff-former-chief-show-contempt-oaths-2nd-amendment-infringements/?mc_cid=4848d9f550&mc_eid=521719a865

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, capt14k said:


 

 


Looking at those numbers it is highly unlikely there are a million Firearms owners in NJ. 250,000 who are not former or current law enforcement is more likely. The NICS and Handgun purchase permits are pretty steady each year and are likely the same 100,000 people.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

I'll begin by saying that I am skeptical of results of any telephone poll regarding firearm ownership (as I would be about a telephone survey about cash, jewelry and gold coins kept in the home).

However, according to one poll, the firearm ownership rate in New Jersey is 11.3%.

https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-state/4/

http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-ownership-by-state-2015-7

11.3% suggests a number closer to 1,000,000 than to 250,000.

My guesstimate is that the undercount is at least 10% of households, nationally.

My reasoning -- Percentage of US population that own guns: High estimate 63% (“Gun at home makes safer" - Gallup)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/179213/six-americans-say-guns-homes-safer.aspx

(If you thought that a fire extinguisher or smoke alarm made your home safer, wouldn't you have one?)

Percentage of US population that own guns: Low estimate 47% (“Gun at home, or elsewhere on property." - Gallup)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx

What is the actual number in New Jersey?

I don't know, but my own guess is that it's more than 250,000.

My dad served -- volunteered -- in both WW1 and WW2. Serving in the military was pretty much a norm at the time. Many who served brought back souvenirs. (K98s brought back as war trophies often show a "duffel cut" made in the stock to fit them into a duffel bag.) Nice-looking Lugers sometimes turn up in gun buybacks. I don't think that returning with war trophies became unusual until Vietnam and later wars. I'd also guess that there are more than a few guns in steamer trunks and in attics that people don't even think about.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Bob2222 said:

I'll begin by saying that I am skeptical of results of any telephone poll regarding firearm ownership (as I would be about a telephone survey about cash, jewelry and gold coins kept in the home).

However, according to one poll, the firearm ownership rate in New Jersey is 11.3%.

https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-state/4/

http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-ownership-by-state-2015-7

11.3% suggests a number closer to 1,000,000 than to 250,000.

My guesstimate is that the undercount is at least 10% of households, nationally.

My reasoning -- Percentage of US population that own guns: High estimate 63% (“Gun at home makes safer" - Gallup)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/179213/six-americans-say-guns-homes-safer.aspx

(If you thought that a fire extinguisher or smoke alarm made your home safer, wouldn't you have one?)

Percentage of US population that own guns: Low estimate 47% (“Gun at home, or elsewhere on property." - Gallup)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx

What is the actual number in New Jersey?

I don't know, but my own guess is that it's more than 250,000.

My dad served -- volunteered -- in both WW1 and WW2. Serving in the military was pretty much a norm at the time. Many who served brought back souvenirs. (K98s brought back as war trophies often show a "duffel cut" made in the stock to fit them into a duffel bag.) Nice-looking Lugers sometimes turn up in gun buybacks. I don't think that returning with war trophies became unusual until Vietnam and later wars. I'd also guess that there are more than a few guns in steamer trunks and in attics that people don't even think about.

 

Look at N.J. Nics numbers for a better barometer. Or scale it down.. I personally know very few people without at least 1 firearm in their home.( granted the birds of a feather analogy)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

I'll begin by saying that I am skeptical of results of any telephone poll regarding firearm ownership (as I would be about a telephone survey about cash, jewelry and gold coins kept in the home).

However, according to one poll, the firearm ownership rate in New Jersey is 11.3%.

https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-state/4/

http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-ownership-by-state-2015-7

11.3% suggests a number closer to 1,000,000 than to 250,000.

My guesstimate is that the undercount is at least 10% of households, nationally.

My reasoning -- Percentage of US population that own guns: High estimate 63% (“Gun at home makes safer" - Gallup)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/179213/six-americans-say-guns-homes-safer.aspx

(If you thought that a fire extinguisher or smoke alarm made your home safer, wouldn't you have one?)

Percentage of US population that own guns: Low estimate 47% (“Gun at home, or elsewhere on property." - Gallup)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx

What is the actual number in New Jersey?

I don't know, but my own guess is that it's more than 250,000.

My dad served -- volunteered -- in both WW1 and WW2. Serving in the military was pretty much a norm at the time. Many who served brought back souvenirs. (K98s brought back as war trophies often show a "duffel cut" made in the stock to fit them into a duffel bag.) Nice-looking Lugers sometimes turn up in gun buybacks. I don't think that returning with war trophies became unusual until Vietnam and later wars. I'd also guess that there are more than a few guns in steamer trunks and in attics that people don't even think about.

 

 

The 250k was a guesstimate of those who own firearms and aren't former or current LEO since the rules are different for them.

 

More important I think is the amount active gun owners/purchasers. It is those people who are going to be inclined to care about these Draconian gun laws. For that Let's at NICS checks and Population

 

NICS

 

PA = 1M

 

NJ = 100k

 

PA Pop = 12.8M

 

NJ Pop = 9M

 

NICS check in PA = 8% as a percent of Population

 

NICS check in NJ = 1.1% as a percent of Population

 

The much lower NICS check isn't due to population difference. There are 10x as many NICS checks in PA and over 700% higher rate of NICS checks as a percent of the population. Just because someone owns Grandpa's take home from WWII doesn't mean they really give a damn about our cause.

 

 

Why is this important? Because I think we need to stop thinking we can get 1M firearms owners behind us in NJ and be more realistic about the numbers. Which again leads back to where the money is going to come from to win the fight. It needs to come from large donors because there aren't enough small donors.

 

 

 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our buggest problem in NJ is that we have 1 person who owns ten guns, rather than ten people who own one gun. This is why other states have gun rights, and we don't. Small numbers of passionate enthusiasts are great, but what really stops these bullshit laws are when random people's grandmas are out there scratching their heads because a new law proposes to ban their purse gun. We don't need more people buying their 14th handgun, we need more people buying their first. 

The system in NJ is cleverly designed not to keep the amount of guns you can buy low, but to keep the amount of people who buy guns low. That's why FID card sends letters to your job, makes you list references, etc. Systematic intimidation, in the past this was likely used as racial bias as well. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, capt14k said:


Why is this important? Because I think we need to stop thinking we can get 1M firearms behind us in NJ and be more realistic about the numbers. Which again leads back to where the money is going to come from to win the fight. It needs to come from large donors because there aren't enough small donors.
 

I don't think there is going to be any groundswell of support for the 2A by the masses in New Jersey.

But we have the Constitution behind us. The state is -- and has been -- up against the limits of clearly violating the 2A. And sometimes smashes right through the limits of the 2A. At least as in Heller, McDonald and Caetano.

It's pioneered state gun control laws nationally since 1966. (Or at least it did until Christie.) 

They are resorting to stupid and useless gestures now. An example is Murphy's order to release the stats on the origin of firearms associated with crimes in the state. Information that anyone could find on the internet.

Our hope comes from a couple more SC justices appointed by Trump.

Or moving. (I think the tax reasons for doing that outweigh the 2A reasons.) In fact, I think the slow motion train wreck of the state's finances are likely to do more to -- hopefully -- make Murphy a 1-term governor than gun control laws.

NJ counties with the largest # of FFLs are Ocean and Monmouth. https://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/data/analysis/2018/03/05/gun-sales-licensed-gun-dealers/383106002/The state would be definitely an okay place if there were some way to take the strip of land 10 miles to each side of the NJ Turnpike and give it to New York.

(As it is, New Jersey is Hell with great beaches, pizza and tomatoes!)

I'm in one of "those" counties and pretty much everyone I know has at least one gun in the home -- or I would guess has at least one gun in the home. It's kinda like voting for Trump in the state. (Don's ask, don't tell. Certainly don't put out a lawn sign.)

There are roughly 125K hunting licenses in the state.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2016/12/number_of_hunters_continues_to_decline_in_new_jers.html

I would love to see Trump's DOJ approach the 2A as a Civil Rights issue.

Which it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Bob2222 said:

There are roughly 125K hunting licenses in the state.

The actual number of NJ residents who could have potentially picked up a firearm and hunted in 2017 is only 58,162. That's a realistic yet paltry number from 9,000,000 residents. 

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/pdf/license_sales70-17.pdf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The actual number of NJ residents who could have potentially picked up a firearm and hunted in 2017 is only 58,162. That's a realistic yet paltry number from 9,000,000 residents. 
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/pdf/license_sales70-17.pdf


Now how many of them are FUDDS and how many are strong Pro 2A. My hunting license is active and I’m sure many on here have active licenses. Call it 50/50? Which makes a groundswell of support even less likely. We must go after large donors and use those funds wisely. Mostly to file lawsuits, even frivolous and personal suits, in order to put the state on the defensive.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Parker said:

The actual number of NJ residents who could have potentially picked up a firearm and hunted in 2017 is only 58,162. That's a realistic yet paltry number from 9,000,000 residents. 

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/pdf/license_sales70-17.pdf

That may seem like a paltry number, but if we could get 1/4 (15k) of them to show up in Trenton, it would seem like a mob. 1/2 (29k) would make them shit cobblestones.

Even if gun owners are becoming a minority in NJ, we can still make a difference.  It's been working for other groups for decades.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That may seem like a paltry number, but if we could get 1/4 (15k) of them to show up in Trenton, it would seem like a mob. 1/2 (29k) would make them shit cobblestones.
Even if gun owners are becoming a minority in NJ, we can still make a difference.  It's been working for other groups for decades.


I really believe anything less than 100,000 at a rally makes us feel good, but doesn't change their minds. It is all about money. It's always been about money. One large donor like the Koch Brothers could double all the donations combined. Then forget the rallies until we start winning lawsuits.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was a time more than two decades ago that many rallied and many cared. I think those with any sense today have since fled. I found some old articles of those times, that speak volumes and a number of groups who made a difference when Florio was on a tear. (Yes, taxes were an issue then as well.) 

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1993-06-20/news/9306200276_1_assault-rifles-gun-ban-florio

https://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/28/nyregion/nra-makes-beating-florio-its-prime-issue.html

Curious how many NRA members there are now in New Jersey after reading these articles as the ranks swelled back then.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There was a time more than two decades ago that many rallied and many cared. I think those with any sense today have since fled. I found some old articles of those times, that speak volumes and a number of groups who made a difference when Florio was on a tear. (Yes, taxes were an issue then as well.) 
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1993-06-20/news/9306200276_1_assault-rifles-gun-ban-florio
https://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/28/nyregion/nra-makes-beating-florio-its-prime-issue.html
Curious how many NRA members there are now in New Jersey after reading these articles as the ranks swelled back then.   
What exactly was accomplished from those rallies? Assault Weapon Ban was passed. Florio wasn't reelected because of taxes not firearms. Whitman was elected and had a GOP legislature and none of the firearms laws were changed for the better. Not to piss on anyone's parade but the time and resources spent at rallies was a waste. How many lawsuits were filed then? How about during Christie's tenure? 3 maybe 4? We need hundreds if not thousands of lawsuits. All available funds need to be spent on lawsuits using outside counsel who have been successful elsewhere.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because its one of the tools in the toolbag, Capt; that's why the rallies.  And there were a lot of lawsuits then; as there will be again.  Where do you think the "NJ compliant" ARs came from?

  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Because its one of the tools in the toolbag, Capt; that's why the rallies.  And there were a lot of lawsuits then; as there will be again.  Where do you think the "NJ compliant" ARs came from?
  
I understand it is a tool in the bag, but not an effective one IMO, and at this time it takes away from funds for lawsuits. However I understand it makes some people feel good and they like the meet and greet aspect. Those who go to rallies just need to realize there is no sense in attacking those who do not. I also believe low turnout rallies are counter productive, with low turnout being defined as anything below 10,000, so that should be taken into consideration when planning and attending rallies. A good time for a rally would be after a legal win.


Where did NJ Compliant ARs come from? I'm not 100% familiar with the history of the law being I wasn't 18 yet in 1990. I always assumed the NJ Assault Weapons Ban was based on previous Federal Bills that were unsuccessful and the NJ Compliant AR came from finding loopholes in the law. Was there a specific negotiation or lawsuit that brought about the NJ Compliant AR?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I found the answer to my question. NJ Compliant Rifles resulted from the arrest of Long Branch Resident Robert Merrill who was charged with owning a MAK90. Judge ruled substantially identical was void for vagueness. The AG didn't appeal which insured the decision wouldn't have affect on other cases. Then Stephen Halbrook a Fairfax, VA attotney filled a suit in Federal District Court on behalf of NJ firearms owners. He was successful in having a similar law overturned in Columbus, OH. So the AG issued the current guidelines that are followed today. Ultimately the lawsuit was dismissed. Is that correct?

 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/20/2018 at 7:07 AM, Scorpio64 said:

Even if gun owners are becoming a minority in NJ, we can still make a difference.  It's been working for other groups for decades.

The problem is, the gun owners are the ones working and paying the bills in the state, that's why it's tough for them to show up.

Those other groups live for FREE in mom's basement, they have all the time in the world to make signs, wear their pink pussy hats and protest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

The problem is, the gun owners are the ones working and paying the bills in the state, that's why it's tough for them to show up.

Those other groups live for FREE in mom's basement, they have all the time in the world to make signs, wear their pink pussy hats and protest.

Regardless of a persons circumstance, it all comes down to this; How important is retaining 2A rights (or any other right) to an individual.  If it is truly a top priority, people find a way, no matter what.  If a person feels something else is more important, and they are willing to have a right taken from them without a fight, then it will be taken.  The premise is actually quite simple, but the individual dynamics are complicated based on self interests.

The reasons for not getting involved can range from apathy, fear, and even impotence.  There are more good  reasons why people should get involved than not, but people can always find (rationalize) one to opt out.  And, no matter how you look at it, that is a problem.  We need to figure out a way to get around it that works for most.  Come up with a convincing, rational argument to encourage involvement.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Scorpio64 said:

Regardless of a persons circumstance, it all comes down to this; How important is retaining 2A rights (or any other right) to an individual.  If it is truly a top priority, people find a way, no matter what.  If a person feels something else is more important, and they are willing to have a right taken from them without a fight, then it will be taken.  The premise is actually quite simple, but the individual dynamics are complicated based on self interests.

The reasons for not getting involved can range from apathy, fear, and even impotence.  There are more good  reasons why people should get involved than not, but people can always find (rationalize) one to opt out.  And, no matter how you look at it, that is a problem.  We need to figure out a way to get around it that works for most.  Come up with a convincing, rational argument to encourage involvement.

 

Look at how apathtic most people are about losing one of the 1st Amendment's tenets, freedom of speech. We now have the "PC police" ready to pounce if anyone says "illegal alien." College campuses, which used to be a haven for free speech (at least when I was there many years ago), now have lists of words that can't be used---in some cases even "he" and "she" (replaced by "they").

If the general population is keeping quiet about this assault on the 1st Amendment---at least publicly---what can we do to encourage fighting for the 2nd Amendment? As @capt14k said, MONEY. Learn from what the antis are doing. They're backed by big money including Bloomberg and Soros. We have...? The professionals plan a "spontaneous" rally, bus in the participants, have consistent talking points (facts aren't important), have the MSM assembled, and then send everyone home only to plan for the next rally when it's needed.

The pro-2A side needs big money backers who are prepared to play the same game as the antis. Honestly, I have no idea how to accomplish that, but we must have some pro-2A people who do know.

An influx of lawsuits is another tactic; but again, that requires big money. I don't mean a lawsuit so one person can get his/her CCW, I mean a lawsuit against the state about the vague wording of the laws, the redundancy of the laws, the non-constitutionality of the laws.

IMHO, continuing to repeat an action that isn't working is counter-productive and frustrating. Yes, we need to fight for our 2A rights (as well as our 1A rights), but we need to see what the opposition is doing right and make it work for us. That will take HUGE MONEY.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Gunsrlegal said:

Look at how apathtic most people are about losing one of the 1st Amendment's tenets, freedom of speech. We now have the "PC police" ready to pounce if anyone says "illegal alien." College campuses, which used to be a haven for free speech (at least when I was there many years ago), now have lists of words that can't be used---in some cases even "he" and "she" (replaced by "they").

I don't think the free speech issue is due to apathy, it is more fear.  The left has beaten us into submission with the threat of law suits and violence.  College profs can say whatever they want about Barbara Bush, but if someone wants to make a pro 2A statement in class, they get in trouble and auto failed.  The left is abusing the first amendment, using it to make conservatives feel guilty and sheepish about saying anything about a minority because of shit that happened over 150 years ago.  They are using it to chip away at America and turn it into their ideal socialist paradise and it will happen if we let it.

The left, which controls nearly all media in every form has been on a social engineering campaign for decades.  They conflate the past with the present and make Americans of white European descent feel bad about shit we had nothing to do with. They use humor to debase and humiliate traditional American values.  They twist the constitution to benefit them while removing or changing through policy and law the things that were meant to ensure what they are doing would never happen.  Activist judges on scotus not only allowed it to happen, they helped it along.

The left is attacking the NRA because it's the protector of the last, and most dangerous to the left amendments.  As long as America is armed, they won't be able to throw out the constitution and rewrite it as a socialist republic.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Free speech is being destroyed by the left and the right. The same people that attack a Pro 2A candidate for using a deragatory term 12 years ago I would be willing to bet use plenty of slurs in their everyday speech. Yet when it comes out a political figure did the same thing he should be tarred and feathered. People need to stop getting so upset over words. It never bothered me for someone to call me a Kraut. Go one any Japanese Firearms Forum and you will see the term Jap used plenty, but other words seem to trigger many.

 

 

Fox News should run All in The Family episodes nightly. Maybe then people wouldn't get their panties in a bunch when they hear a "bad" word.

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...