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Non-Resident Permits No Longer Honored in PA INCLUDING NH and TX

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7 minutes ago, 45Doll said:

Before you run over to PA and open carry you'd better read this.

Wolf's state of emergency for the 'opioid crisis' triggered a provision in the PA statutes prohibiting open carry.

So, in a State of emergency, the most probable time when you would need to defend yourself, you are stripped of that right. This stuff is just unbelievable.  

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28 minutes ago, diamondd817 said:

So, in a State of emergency, the most probable time when you would need to defend yourself, you are stripped of that right. This stuff is just unbelievable.  

Of course. The funny thing is, if you read the statute there's an exception where open carry is permitted if you're 'in the act of self defense'.

So the question would be which came first? The attack, the open carry, or self defense? Sort of sounds like 'justifiable need'.

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10 hours ago, diamondd817 said:

So, in a State of emergency, the most probable time when you would need to defend yourself, you are stripped of that right. This stuff is just unbelievable.  

Stripped of carry without a LTCF.

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I'm trying to parse through all the twists and turns, but I *think* we're ok to open carry on a non-res license, by wording of § 6107(b)...

(b)  Seizure, taking and confiscation.--Except as otherwise provided under subsection (a) and notwithstanding the provisions of 35 Pa.C.S. Ch. 73 (relating to Commonwealth services) or any other provision of law to the contrary, no firearm, accessory or ammunition may be seized, taken or confiscated during an emergency unless the seizure, taking or confiscation would be authorized absent the emergency.

If the "emergency" didn't exist, we could open carry on NH or UT permits (I'm not sure about a VA non-res permit, since reciprocity was yanked from them.)  So by that, the declared state of emergency is itself insufficient grounds to detain someone for open carry at this time.

 

IANAL so I welcome debate.

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I'm trying to parse through all the twists and turns, but I *think* we're ok to open carry on a non-res license, by wording of § 6107(b)...
(b)  Seizure, taking and confiscation.--Except as otherwise provided under subsection (a) and notwithstanding the provisions of 35 Pa.C.S. Ch. 73 (relating to Commonwealth services) or any other provision of law to the contrary, no firearm, accessory or ammunition may be seized, taken or confiscated during an emergency unless the seizure, taking or confiscation would be authorized absent the emergency.
If the "emergency" didn't exist, we could open carry on NH or UT permits (I'm not sure about a VA non-res permit, since reciprocity was yanked from them.)  So by that, the declared state of emergency is itself insufficient grounds to detain someone for open carry at this time.
 
IANAL so I welcome debate.


There are 3 applicable sections to the law. I too feel it is ok to open carry on another state's permit but for a different reason. The law contradicts itself.


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On 4/22/2018 at 8:42 PM, capt14k said:

 


There are 3 applicable sections to the law. I too feel it is ok to open carry on another state's permit but for a different reason. The law contradicts itself.


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I'm more interested in hearing your opinion/analysis of this, specifically which parts you're finding contradictory.  I have the same feelings, but would like to "compare notes" so to speak.

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I'm more interested in hearing your opinion/analysis of this, specifically which parts you're finding contradictory.  I have the same feelings, but would like to "compare notes" so to speak.
I will go into it more tomorrow, but in post #23 I touched on it. Yesterday I was too tired to really even think about it, long weekend with kids sports.

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On 4/16/2018 at 10:19 PM, InFamous said:

 

It's looking like it. 

It is absolutely true, I spoke to Attorney Generals office this morning, they are not accepting any NON-resident permits anymore, and will not issue their CCW if you don't have your home state.

 

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13 minutes ago, demonicdave said:

Very true, i called the AG's office this morning, I was just in PA a couple days ago and was apparently committing a few felonies and didn't know it.

I'll bet if you think harder about it, that trip was just before the law changed...

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27 minutes ago, 10X said:

I'll bet if you think harder about it, that trip was just before the law changed...

 

21 minutes ago, demonicdave said:

Nope, was just in PA on Sunday afternoon and I was carrying, I saw it went into effect on the 16th. I was a felon and didn't know it.

man, you had the out, take it.

unless you really want to broadcast crimes on the interwebs

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Section 6107, in pertinent part, provides

 

(a) General rule.–No person shall carry a firearm upon the public streets or upon any public property during an emergency proclaimed by a State or municipal governmental executive unless that person is:

(1) Actively engaged in a defense of that person’s life or property from peril or threat.

(2) Licensed to carry firearms under section 6109 (relating to licenses) or is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).

 

The exemption under 6106(b) is important and may not just apply to state of emergency but all carry.

 

(15) Any person who possesses a valid and lawfully issued license or permit to carry a firearm which has been issued under the laws of another state, regardless of whether a reciprocity agreement exists between the Commonwealth and the state under section 6109(k), provided:

(i) The state provides a reciprocal privilege for individuals licensed to carry firearms under section 6109.

(ii) The Attorney General has determined that the firearm laws of the state are similar to the firearm laws of this Commonwealth.

 

 

It reads regardless of a reprococity agreement. Now if the AG specifically said the firearms laws of Utah, NH, Texas, Florida, etc are not similar then he should have to show proof they are not similar. Has this been done? If not it looks like a good lawsuit being he is in direct violation of PA law.

 

 

 

 

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Has anyone else taken the time to call/write to the AG's office? I have written the governor of TX, the AG in PA and I have a call put to the AG in NH. They way the agreements read, PA only accepts resident permits but the other states accept all PA permits, I believe PA snuck it in that way and was not read by the other state officials prior to signing. We need to stand up and make our voices heard load and clear on this issue IMMEDIATELY!!! Either state can change the agreement within 30 days, after that we are stuck with it until it expires/renews

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10 minutes ago, demonicdave said:

Has anyone else taken the time to call/write to the AG's office? I have written the governor of TX, the AG in PA and I have a call put to the AG in NH. They way the agreements read, PA only accepts resident permits but the other states accept all PA permits, I believe PA snuck it in that way and was not read by the other state officials prior to signing. We need to stand up and make our voices heard load and clear on this issue IMMEDIATELY!!! Either state can change the agreement within 30 days, after that we are stuck with it until it expires/renews

I dont think they 'snuck in' anything....

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55 minutes ago, W2MC said:

I dont think they 'snuck in' anything....

I don't know what transpired, but I have emailed, called, spoke with the NRA, got a call into my NJ NRA chapter and seeing if they would be willing to challenge it, and also contacting a civil rights attorney, we need to stand up or be walked on, anyone else wishing to get involved, please message me. It's time to see who has our backs. If we don't for ourselves, who else will. 

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6106(b)(15)(ii) "similar" clause is shown by if an agreement exists.  ESPECIALLY in the case of a an agreement being revoked (ne: VA) you have your definition of similar by way of negation; the written reciprocity agreement between PA and VA was not only revoked, but it was also declared that VA's permits will NOT be honored due to a LACK of "similar" regulations.  Therefore any state PA has a written reciprocity agreement MUST be "similar" and fit in this clause.

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6106(b)(15)(ii) "similar" clause is shown by if an agreement exists.  ESPECIALLY in the case of a an agreement being revoked (ne: VA) you have your definition of similar by way of negation; the written reciprocity agreement between PA and VA was not only revoked, but it was also declared that VA's permits will NOT be honored due to a LACK of "similar" regulations.  Therefore any state PA has a written reciprocity agreement MUST be "similar" and fit in this clause.
Ok for VA but what about other states. Especially states for which there is no agreement.

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13 hours ago, capt14k said:

Ok for VA but what about other states. Especially states for which there is no agreement.

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Given that PA generally operates under the legal principal of "that which is not explicitly illegal is legal" (unlike NJ where everything is illegal, except by exception) I would say for states PA has no written reciprocity AND for which the PA AG has not made a determination of "similar" laws, then for the no agreement or no determination states you'd be in the clear to carry.

Keep in mind that in PA Open Carry is de-facto legal, as the law is silent on the act; again falling under my prior "not explicitly illegal is legal" statement above.  It's the fact that a State of Emergency is in effect due to them trying to save assholes who OD on drugs, that is screwing us.  I found the PA reciprocity paperwork for NH (and other states) and noticed that PA only recognizes resident NH licenses, but makes NH recognize ALL PA licenses (resident or non-resident.)

If I can find the NH side of the paperwork, perhaps an email to the NH AG is in order.

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17 hours ago, sota said:

Given that PA generally operates under the legal principal of "that which is not explicitly illegal is legal" (unlike NJ where everything is illegal, except by exception) I would say for states PA has no written reciprocity AND for which the PA AG has not made a determination of "similar" laws, then for the no agreement or no determination states you'd be in the clear to carry.

Keep in mind that in PA Open Carry is de-facto legal, as the law is silent on the act; again falling under my prior "not explicitly illegal is legal" statement above.  It's the fact that a State of Emergency is in effect due to them trying to save assholes who OD on drugs, that is screwing us.  I found the PA reciprocity paperwork for NH (and other states) and noticed that PA only recognizes resident NH licenses, but makes NH recognize ALL PA licenses (resident or non-resident.)

If I can find the NH side of the paperwork, perhaps an email to the NH AG is in order.

I have been on the phone for 2 days with different departments from New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Texas. I spoke to a sergeant from the New Hampshire State Police that advised me that New Hampshire is now a constitutional carry state, that is why they are still accepting non-resident permits from Pennsylvania. the way he explained it was there is a change on the Pennsylvania side with regard to non-resident permits from other states. I have been in touch with the Attorney General's office in Pennsylvania and I am waiting on a call back from the legal review Department, I will keep you all posted if I find out more once I speak to them. I also spoke to an attorney that represents ARPCNJ,  which is our local chapter of the NRA. they said they are reviewing it and may consider legal action, I would recommend everybody calling the Attorney General's office in Pennsylvania and the NRA. I am also looking into the possibility of a civil action lawsuit against the state of Pennsylvania for discrimination, since they do offer non-resident permits but do not offer them to you if you do not have your Concealed Carry Permit in your home state.

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40 minutes ago, demonicdave said:

I have been on the phone for 2 days with different departments from New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Texas. I spoke to a sergeant from the New Hampshire State Police that advised me that New Hampshire is now a constitutional carry state, that is why they are still accepting non-resident permits from Pennsylvania. the way he explained it was there is a change on the Pennsylvania side with regard to non-resident permits from other states. I have been in touch with the Attorney General's office in Pennsylvania and I am waiting on a call back from the legal review Department, I will keep you all posted if I find out more once I speak to them. I also spoke to an attorney that represents ARPCNJ,  which is our local chapter of the NRA. they said they are reviewing it and may consider legal action, I would recommend everybody calling the Attorney General's office in Pennsylvania and the NRA. I am also looking into the possibility of a civil action lawsuit against the state of Pennsylvania for discrimination, since they do offer non-resident permits but do not offer them to you if you do not have your Concealed Carry Permit in your home state.

Yeah, let's sue PA. Because Jersey laws don't need suing first.

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14 minutes ago, diamondd817 said:

Yeah, let's sue PA. Because Jersey laws don't need suing first.

There's a case pending now, I spoke to the attorney handling it, briefs were filed yesterday to oppose the NJ attorney General's filing to dismiss the case, now it's up to the Supreme Court to decide if they are going to dismiss the case or hear it. 

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What I find ironic is, people were/are willing to pay NH $100 for their non-resident permit.  As soon as they removed the home state restriction how many people FLOCKED to get it?  I mean it was a months long backlog there for a while.  Given the number of different state plates I see on my trips across the state of PA, I'd imagine they'd (PA) could pull in a couple million dollars worth of revenue by doing the same.  That's a lot of cash to help with the "opoid crisis" I'd think.... or a lot for someone to pocket.

ETA: just looking at the nearby "red" states on handgunlaw.us...
NY, NJ, RI DE,MD,DC, and now VA.  residents of those 7 locales alone who frequent PA would flock to get a PA non-res permit if they offered it for sale like NH does.

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