Hornady Takes Stand Against Bullying State Of New York

[AlexTheSane 236]

41 minutes ago, W2MC said:

Getting married is a protected class?

 

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

[BobA 1,235]

Just now, AlexTheSane said:

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

We need an engaged gay gun owner to protest. 

[BobA 1,235]

How about this one?

https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2018/04/24/bank-threatens-ruger-nra-support/

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

9 minutes ago, BobA said:

How about this one?

https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2018/04/24/bank-threatens-ruger-nra-support/

See? This is exactly the kind of crap I'm talking about! Activists are brazenly hijacking banks and using them as "de facto" judges and juries... and now they're even pressuring the manufacturers themselves, trying to "force" who they can affiliate with. That ain't right! So, if that's the way it's going to be --- these manufacturers better come up with their own dirty tricks to play. And refusing to offer steeply discounted contracts to the most egregious states would be a good place to start! I think this Hornady guy is onto something!

[GRIZ 3,369]

3 hours ago, Smokin .50 said:

Yes, those large contracts are at a steep discount, BUT they still provide enough profit to keep the roller bearings greased, which in-turn pays for the maintenance & wages of the plant.  The real "gravy" is wholesale distribution to smaller mom & pops w/o contracts.  Speaking of contracts, are these supply contracts short-term OR long term?  Maybe GRIZ would know?  I ask this because the entire issue is ripe with emotionalism.  Meaning we want our manufacturers to be red, white & blue so we don't throw them under da bus.  So what happens if say Olin has a 3 year contract with an Anti-Gun state?  Will emotional 2A Patriots WAIT for the current contract to run-out or will they show-up with pitchforks & unloaded open-carry AR's in front of the plant to make a statement?

These ammo suppliers don't operate in a vacuum.  They know the ropes.  They've had to struggle to keep-up with demand.  They've had to import their lead because we no longer smelt it in the US (cause Government restrictions & Gov's "we know better than YOU policies)!  They've had to invest in new equipment to meet the demand.  Their investors don't wanna see that equipment idled so stock prices are stable.  

Fellas & Lady, I'll admit I don't have ALL of the answers here to this complicated problem.  I do know that treating an ammo manufacturer DIFFERENTLY because they have to fulfill or be SUED is blatantly wrong & emotional.  This conversation we're having HERE will be repeated over & over at the NRA convention.  So before I try to "solve the problem", I'm going to let the industry leaders get together at this GIANT TRADE SHOW to work TOGETHER  

We went through some of this a few years ago when everyone was screaming about DHS ordering so many million rounds of ammo.  I explained then that this order was over a 5 year period (common in the Federal government).  Agencies with a smaller need for ammo, Social Security, Forest Service,  EPA, Marine Fisheries, EPA, etc would piggy back on a big agency ammo contract so they all get a better price.  This also makes the ammo contract a lot bigger.

The Federal ammo contracts spread the wealth.  They may buy 40 from Federal, 223 from Winchester, 9mm from CCI. and 12 GA from Remington.

These contracts usually have no penalty for the government backing out as long as they buy so much ammo.  Never heard of government backing out on an ammo contract.  They do have penalties for the ammo manufacturers to back out and I never heard of that happening either.

As Rosie explained these contracts keep ammo companies afloat no matter what the retail market is doing. 

I don't know anything about state ammo contracts but they are no doubt similar.

[BobA 1,235]

2 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

See? This is exactly the kind of crap I'm talking about! Activists are brazenly hijacking banks and using them as "de facto" judges and juries... and now they're even pressuring the manufacturers themselves, trying to "force" who they can affiliate with. That ain't right! So, if that's the way it's going to be --- these manufacturers better come up with their own dirty tricks to play. And refusing to offer steeply discounted contracts to the most egregious states would be a good place to start! I think this Hornady guy is onto something!

I’m not really sure how the bank can do this. I would like to assume lending laws might prevail here. If the business is a legal one and the financial risk is minimal I don’t feel the bank should have the right to judge. Do they take the same moral high road for a bar with nude dancers? A porn shop? A building loan for a planned parenthood building?  Where’s the line and how can they cross it?  There’re loan grants should be based on business decisions and not moral or political ones. 

[Ray Ray 3,566]

16 hours ago, Smokin .50 said:

Withhold enough sales & lose customers.  Withhold sales & break a contract or two or three trying to make a statement & get sued over it.  Several suits.  All at once. 

You can choose NOT to sell your ammunition to any state you choose, it's called the free market.  Just like CDNN has choosen NOT to sell their products to residents of New Jersey.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

19 hours ago, GRIZ said:

We went through some of this a few years ago when everyone was screaming about DHS ordering so many million rounds of ammo.  I explained then that this order was over a 5 year period (common in the Federal government).  Agencies with a smaller need for ammo, Social Security, Forest Service,  EPA, Marine Fisheries, EPA, etc would piggy back on a big agency ammo contract so they all get a better price.  This also makes the ammo contract a lot bigger.

The Federal ammo contracts spread the wealth.  They may buy 40 from Federal, 223 from Winchester, 9mm from CCI. and 12 GA from Remington.

These contracts usually have no penalty for the government backing out as long as they buy so much ammo.  Never heard of government backing out on an ammo contract.  They do have penalties for the ammo manufacturers to back out and I never heard of that happening either.

As Rosie explained these contracts keep ammo companies afloat no matter what the retail market is doing. 

I don't know anything about state ammo contracts but they are no doubt similar.

The Federal ammo contracts spread the wealth.  They may buy 40 from Federal, 223 from Winchester, 9mm from CCI. and 12 GA from Remington.

To ALL, not just GRIZ:

From the Wild Hair up my keester Dept.:

Without going down the entire rabbit hole of potential bid-rigging, is it possible, that the main suppliers to the Feds TAKE TURNS manufacturing for these huge contracts and do so based upon their lines' pre-set production limits, storage capacity, inventory on-hand, PM schedules of certain production lines (say the 9mm line will be down for overhaul?), new equipment installation plans in the works, etc., etc.?  It's not collusion if you all "take turns" and TALK TO EACH OTHER about who needs to do what!  It's not price-fixing either.  It's simply GOOD BIDNESS and it's also great for National Security in that cooperation among manufacturers helps to offset a sudden need for small arms ammo should we find ourselves in another "shooting War".  

I'm a student of History.  There's a REASON a typewriter company (Smith-Corona) was handed copyrighted plans that were patented by another company so they could RE-TOOL and make M-1 Garands.  Several different companies in fact (cue Capt14K for full list).  In today's world, NOBODY wants to tell DOD or the Joint Chiefs that they can't supply small arms ammo... 

So now that the manufacturing of small arms ammo comes under the purview of National Security, who wants to boycott which major manufacturer that chooses to fulfill their multi-year contracts?

[BobA 1,235]

20 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

You can choose NOT to sell your ammunition to any state you choose, it's called the free market.  Just like CDNN has choosen NOT to sell their products to residents of New Jersey.

Actually as communist as it sounds that may not necessarily be the case. Some old timers out there may remember when Coors beer wouldn’t come east of the Rockies. They were sued and it was ruled that they had to. Some ICC ruling. It was back in the late ‘70s. 

[Zeke 5,504]

6 minutes ago, BobA said:

Actually as communist as it sounds that may not necessarily be the case. Some old timers out there may remember when Coors beer wouldn’t come east of the Rockies. They were sued and it was ruled that they had to. Some ICC ruling. It was back in the late ‘70s. 

Smokey and the bandit 

[BobA 1,235]

1 minute ago, Zeke said:

Smokey and the bandit 

Yup. That movie and Paul Newman opened a whole can of worms for Coors. 

[Zeke 5,504]

26 minutes ago, BobA said:

Yup. That movie and Paul Newman opened a whole can of worms for Coors. 

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8ORLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=A4sDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6763%2C2903203

[Zeke 5,504]

42 minutes ago, BobA said:

Actually as communist as it sounds that may not necessarily be the case. Some old timers out there may remember when Coors beer wouldn’t come east of the Rockies. They were sued and it was ruled that they had to. Some ICC ruling. It was back in the late ‘70s. 

They weren’t forced to distribute, but could not prevent 3rd party distribution.

i don’t think it has bearing here unless hornady tries to prevent 3rd party from selling to its blacklist 

[BobA 1,235]

1 hour ago, Zeke said:

They weren’t forced to distribute, but could not prevent 3rd party distribution.

i don’t think it has bearing here unless hornady tries to prevent 3rd party from selling to its blacklist 

I was living in Colorado Springs during all that. I used to smuggle as many cases as one could fit in the trunk of a ‘72 Monte Carlo Back to NJ people willing to buy it. I thought I remember it differently in the headlines but a lot is blurry from the 70s. 

[Zeke 5,504]

2 minutes ago, BobA said:

I was living in Colorado Springs during all that. I used to smuggle as many cases as one could fit in the trunk of a ‘72 Monte Carlo Back to NJ people willing to buy it. I thought I remember it differently in the headlines but a lot is blurry from the 70s. 

Rum runner! I knew sumtin was was fishy with you! Kids those days...

[BobA 1,235]

Just now, Zeke said:

Rum runner! I knew sumtin was was fishy with you! Kids those days...

If it were today Murphy would have me reported on a list as bringing beer from other states to NJ endangering the undocumented immigrants lives because they would end up drunk driving with their new drivers licenses to their hamburger flipping 15.00/hr jobs that they hope to leave after their free college. But I would be the criminal. 

[Zeke 5,504]

We digress. But I’m of @Mrs. Peel mindset. The industry needs to take a stand.

If you want an example of military/PD only.. look at Colt. 

[BobA 1,235]

Just now, Zeke said:

We digress. But I’m of @Mrs. Peel mindset. The industry needs to take a stand.

If you want an example of military/PD only.. look at Colt. 

Yeah, well, as Rosie keeps pointing out it’s tough when one’s business gets involved. The bottom line dictates. Many a soul has been sold or traded for survival of a business. 

[Zeke 5,504]

8 minutes ago, BobA said:

Yeah, well, as Rosie keeps pointing out it’s tough when one’s business gets involved. The bottom line dictates. Many a soul has been sold or traded for survival of a business. 

Even more kudos to Hornady then. 

[W2MC 1,699]

12 hours ago, Smokin .50 said:

The Federal ammo contracts spread the wealth.  They may buy 40 from Federal, 223 from Winchester, 9mm from CCI. and 12 GA from Remington.

To ALL, not just GRIZ:

From the Wild Hair up my keester Dept.:

Without going down the entire rabbit hole of potential bid-rigging, is it possible, that the main suppliers to the Feds TAKE TURNS manufacturing for these huge contracts and do so based upon their lines' pre-set production limits, storage capacity, inventory on-hand, PM schedules of certain production lines (say the 9mm line will be down for overhaul?), new equipment installation plans in the works, etc., etc.?  It's not collusion if you all "take turns" and TALK TO EACH OTHER about who needs to do what!  It's not price-fixing either.  It's simply GOOD BIDNESS and it's also great for National Security in that cooperation among manufacturers helps to offset a sudden need for small arms ammo should we find ourselves in another "shooting War".  

I'm a student of History.  There's a REASON a typewriter company (Smith-Corona) was handed copyrighted plans that were patented by another company so they could RE-TOOL and make M-1 Garands.  Several different companies in fact (cue Capt14K for full list).  In today's world, NOBODY wants to tell DOD or the Joint Chiefs that they can't supply small arms ammo... 

So now that the manufacturing of small arms ammo comes under the purview of National Security, who wants to boycott which major manufacturer that chooses to fulfill their multi-year contracts?

Um.....no.  Bid rigging and bidder collusion is VERY illegal. For a NJ example:

https://www.justice.gov/archive/atr/public/press_releases/1997/1227.htm

 

[Smokin .50 1,907]

11 hours ago, W2MC said:

Um.....no.  Bid rigging and bidder collusion is VERY illegal. For a NJ example:

https://www.justice.gov/archive/atr/public/press_releases/1997/1227.htm

 

W2MC thanks for posting!  It proves that ammo companies have to be VERY careful about their mutual relationships, how communications between them can be monitored, how market forces can't be "faked" to obtain higher profits and how the Government treats the industry as being vital to National Security, and does so 21 years ago!

[monmouth 19]

Manufacturers, distributors, and leveraged retailers will quickly learn that "he who has the gold makes the rules".  You would see a massive consolidation and long term price spike in the industry.