Hornady Takes Stand Against Bullying State Of New York

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

I'm putting this in a public forum... keep the language clean, pls. 

There's been several articles on here about activists (like Gov Cuomo) pressuring banks to step away from business with firearm manufacturers. Here's a new twist... in retribution, Hornady has said they won't sell any ammo to NY state's various agencies. Geez, how I would LOVE to see all the other manufacturers do the same thing... and then see them get raped and pillaged on price by the ones who will still deal with them.

It's a lot to hope for... but, here's wishin' and a hopin'.

https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2018/04/30/hornady-takes-stand-bullying-state-new-york/

 

[JohnnyB 4,322]

I'm very happy to see them fight back! I hope many others follow suit very soon. I suddenly feel the urge to buy some more Hornady ammo!

[SmittyMHS 603]

Problem I see is they wont care how much they have to pay for ammo. After all WE pay for it...

I would like to see NO ONE selling them ammo. But there will always be a scab out there looking to make a buck on our dime.

[Zeke 5,504]

The absurdity of the protected caste.

“Wut? I din mean my Security...”

 

I will add this, it’s not the various agencies fault, they do not make law. It’s really the voters fault, or and the non voters fault. 

[Scorpio64 5,147]

Read about this on another forum. 

I, along with several other members, have sent Remington, Winchester, CCI, and Federal an e-mail expressing our support for Hornady's decision and encouraged them to do the same.

This is my "form letter"
 

Quote

 

Dear ********

As you have surely heard by now, Hornady has made a bold decision to stop selling ammo to New York State agencies in response to the state Comptrollers treacherous move to undermine the Second Amendment.

I strongly support Hornady and admire them for taking a firm stance in defending the rights of Americans and corporations to conduct lawful commerce.  Appreciation and support among sportsmen and women is widespread, the story about Hornady's decision has gone viral.  Many of us are showing our appreciation by putting Hornady at the front of the line for all future ammo purchases.

As a long time consumer of your products, I hope you will follow Hornady's excellent example and also refuse to do business with government agencies that are hostile to the Constitution and lawful commerce. 

Millions of shooting sports folks are paying close attention to who is standing up to the sneaky bullies and who is kowtowing to them.  I hope you will also have the courage to stand against this wave of underhanded tactics.

Sincerely

XXXXX  XXXXXXX

 

 

[mossburger 406]

I would love to see more companies step in and do this. It is, in fact, possible to make it nearly as difficult for these states' agencies to get their ammo for protection on duty, target practice, etc. You know, just like they make it hard/impossible for the rest of us! Just need enough companies to join in. 

[Scorpio64 5,147]

13 hours ago, mossburger said:

I would love to see more companies step in and do this.

Write to them and gently encourage them to follow Hornady's example.

[Bully 749]

Hmmmmmmmm...

I may need to switch my bullet choice from 80SMK to 80ELD-M

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I admire Steve Hornady's PLUCK!

While I wish for a perfect world in which no one sold to them (NY State & others), I'm a realist.  Ammo companies are owned by investors & run by conglomerates' Board of Directors.  Not all are small enough to have a Steve Hornady at the helm.  So if your favorite ammo company won't comply with yer requests for fears of being sued due to breech of contract (if indeed railroad cars filled with ammo are directly contracted to the end users that are anti-gun), don't go nutz threatening/boycotting them out of bidness.  So aim where your emotion(s) will do the most good & don't shoot yerselves in the feet  

Be CAREFUL what you wish for is all I'm sayen.....

[Rob0115 1,105]

1 hour ago, JohnnyB said:

I'm very happy to see them fight back! I hope many others follow suit very soon. I suddenly feel the urge to buy some more Hornady ammo!

I’m going to place a big order of components and it’s going to go to hornady. 

[Scorpio64 5,147]

13 hours ago, Smokin .50 said:

Be CAREFUL what you wish for is all I'm sayen.....

I wish for ammo suppliers to do something to counter the underhanded attacks on 2A.  I'm pretty sure there is no negative consequence to that.

[Rob0115 1,105]

The end of the article is quite important where more of the industry needs to step and deny firearms and components to NY and states that are similar.  I’ll be writing to a variety of companies tomorrow and let them know they have my support and should abandon states like NY. 

[sgtdave4321 36]

It would be great if more companies did this also.

[maintenanceguy 510]

I would be great if everyone did this but it's not possible.  It would drive the price of ammo up until it was high enough for somebody to cave in and sell.  Then the blockade is broken and everyone will be back to selling ammo again.

[SJG 253]

To expand this a bit, it would be really great if firearm manufacturers refused to enter into contracts to supply firearms to any State and its political subdivisions that are hostile to the second amendment and have enacted draconian firearm laws, such as New Jersey. I assume Glock, Sig and S&W provide the majority of weapons to law enforcement and department members would not be happy if they had to carry second tier weapons.  Didn't Magpul relocate from an anti State to a pro-State. 

[Smokin .50 1,907]

1 hour ago, Scorpio64 said:

I wish for ammo suppliers to do something to counter the underhanded attacks on 2A.  I'm pretty sure there is no negative consequence to that.

Withhold enough sales & lose customers.  Withhold sales & break a contract or two or three trying to make a statement & get sued over it.  Several suits.  All at once.  Then pay lawyers with money ya don't have, so have to borrow.  Then borrow more to pay settlement cause YOU LOSE.  Then in the meantime lay-off employees because you don't need to sell to NY State & others of their ilk AND you can't afford to pay idled employees or perform routine maintenance on production equipment, including idled production equipment that's not making any money AND you're still paying-back the lease-to-own.  Then be forced to pay higher unemployment premiums to the state yer located in.  IF the entire mess isn't handled 100% correctly, by experts used to doing such things in their sleep, you're OUT OF BIDNESS in about a year or so when the notes are due.  Other than THAT^^^, no negative consequences at all.........

REALITY SUCKS!  Running a production plant is like keeping dominoes from falling during an earthquake    EVERY move requires the learned knowledge of a Chess Master.  Steve Hornady can make bullet heads and survive & thrive.  Center fire ammo cartridge making is a fragment of his bottom line, so he's in a unique position where he sits  

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

47 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

Withhold enough sales & lose customers.  Withhold sales & break a contract or two or three trying to make a statement & get sued over it.  Several suits.  All at once.  Then pay lawyers with money ya don't have, so have to borrow.  Then borrow more to pay settlement cause YOU LOSE.  Then in the meantime lay-off employees because you don't need to sell to NY State & others of their ilk AND you can't afford to pay idled employees or perform routine maintenance on production equipment, including idled production equipment that's not making any money AND you're still paying-back the lease-to-own.  Then be forced to pay higher unemployment premiums to the state yer located in.  IF the entire mess isn't handled 100% correctly, by experts used to doing such things in their sleep, you're OUT OF BIDNESS in about a year or so when the notes are due.  Other than THAT^^^, no negative consequences at all.........

REALITY SUCKS!  Running a production plant is like keeping dominoes from falling during an earthquake    EVERY move requires the learned knowledge of a Chess Master.  Steve Hornady can make bullet heads and survive & thrive.  Center fire ammo cartridge making is a fragment of his bottom line, so he's in a unique position where he sits  

I see what you're saying... hmmm... but aren't those kinds of sales handled by large contracts and at a steeply discounted price (due to volume discounts)? Instead of breaking existing contracts, all the companies would really have to do is to simply decline submitting a proposal for NEW contracts when they get the Request for Proposal (RFP) from agencies of certain states. After all, no one is under a legal obligation to submit a bid. Then those agencies would be forced to go out and buy their ammo at FULL retail - which I'm sure is a staggering increase over what they usually buy it for. It would take a coordinated effort. But, as the article mentioned... this is an ugly new era of immense pressure on the 2A. Manufacturers must be more aware of the high stakes than anyone! It's probably time for them to band together on things like this --- for their own survival.

[Zeke 5,504]

I never thought I’d see this day ^

[Scorpio64 5,147]

13 hours ago, Smokin .50 said:

Withhold enough sales & lose customers.  Withhold sales & break a contract or two or three trying to make a statement blah blah blah, yada yada yada

Rosey, you seem to have all the answers about what not to do.  How about giving up some suggestions about what they should do about this.

If the comptroller has his way, the ammo companies, and all firearms related industries for that matter, are screwed anyway.

In other words, the firearms industry is going to take a hit either way.  The only question is, are they going to bow down to a bureaucrat or will they take a stand and support the 2A community.  There is no way the industry can escape taking a side.

So, what is the perfect answer for what TO DO?

[Rob0115 1,105]

7 hours ago, Smokin .50 said:

Withhold enough sales & lose customers.  Withhold sales & break a contract or two or three trying to make a statement & get sued over it.  Several suits.  All at once.  Then pay lawyers with money ya don't have, so have to borrow.  Then borrow more to pay settlement cause YOU LOSE.  Then in the meantime lay-off employees because you don't need to sell to NY State & others of their ilk AND you can't afford to pay idled employees or perform routine maintenance on production equipment, including idled production equipment that's not making any money AND you're still paying-back the lease-to-own.  Then be forced to pay higher unemployment premiums to the state yer located in.  IF the entire mess isn't handled 100% correctly, by experts used to doing such things in their sleep, you're OUT OF BIDNESS in about a year or so when the notes are due.  Other than THAT^^^, no negative consequences at all.........

REALITY SUCKS!  Running a production plant is like keeping dominoes from falling during an earthquake    EVERY move requires the learned knowledge of a Chess Master.  Steve Hornady can make bullet heads and survive & thrive.  Center fire ammo cartridge making is a fragment of his bottom line, so he's in a unique position where he sits  

They can claim they have no liquidity for parts, etc because they’ve been cutoff from financing by request of the governor.  We’ve been to impaired to fulfill the contract.    Sorry.   Again I’d not perform on future deals that I’m not contractually obligated to.  

[BobA 1,235]

11 hours ago, Zeke said:

I will add this, it’s not the various agencies fault, they do not make law. It’s really the voters fault, or and the non voters fault.

By various agencies you mean the State and Locals? Or Probation and the other gun carrying agencies should bare blame for Cuomo's actions?

[GRIZ 3,369]

7 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

I see what you're saying... hmmm... but aren't those kinds of sales handled by large contracts and at a steeply discounted price (due to volume discounts)? Instead of breaking existing contracts, all the companies would really have to do is to simply decline submitting a proposal for NEW contracts when they get the Request for Proposal (RFP) from agencies of certain states. After all, no one is under a legal obligation to submit a bid. Then those agencies would be forced to go out and buy their ammo at FULL retail - which I'm sure is a staggering increase over what they usually buy it for. It would take a coordinated effort. But, as the article mentioned... this is an ugly new era of immense pressure on the 2A. Manufacturers must be more aware of the high stakes than anyone! It's probably time for them to band together on things like this --- for their own survival.

When I was managing an ammo budget and I had pallets of ammo delivered, my agency was paying less than half of retail at contract prices.  If ammo manufacturers were to refuse to renew contracts with certain states a couple of things would happen:

1.  We're talking liberal antigun states here.  It wouldn't bother them in the least from having to raise another tax to offset additional expense of buying ammo.

2.  Such states would no doubt take the issue to federal courts that ammo manufacturers are impeding interstate commerce (an Article I, Section 8 duty of Congress).  Sounds like a the state might win this.  Manufacturers may have to pay  for  reimbursing the states.  This court battle will no doubt be paid for by raising more taxes.

None of those taxes would go away of course.

[BobA 1,235]

No one needs to refuse.  That could get them into trouble.  They can, however not be the competitive bid.  These agencies aren't shopping.  They bid contracts.   

[Scorpio64 5,147]

13 hours ago, GRIZ said:

2.  Such states would no doubt take the issue to federal courts that ammo manufacturers are impeding interstate commerce (an Article I, Section 8 duty of Congress).  Sounds like a the state might win this. 

Excellent point, and a good bargaining chip for a counter suit because NYS is violating exactly the article/section you quoted, interfering with interstate commerce by cutting off the ability to conduct financial transactions.

  The firearms and ammo industries can use the same argument against NYS but the state will not just admit they were wrong, they have to be forced into doing the right thing.

[BobA 1,235]

1 minute ago, Scorpio64 said:

The firearms and ammo industries can use the same argument against NYS but the state will not just admit they were wrong, they have to be forced into doing the right thing.

But there are so many evil guns on their list that are block by law from being shipped to their states.  A similar argument could be made there. 

[GRIZ 3,369]

1 hour ago, BobA said:

But there are so many evil guns on their list that are block by law from being shipped to their states.  A similar argument could be made there. 

That could be a 10A issue in the state's favor without a SCOTUS decision defining arms under the 2A. 

[Smokin .50 1,907]

10 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

I see what you're saying... hmmm... but aren't those kinds of sales handled by large contracts and at a steeply discounted price (due to volume discounts)? Instead of breaking existing contracts, all the companies would really have to do is to simply decline submitting a proposal for NEW contracts when they get the Request for Proposal (RFP) from agencies of certain states. After all, no one is under a legal obligation to submit a bid. Then those agencies would be forced to go out and buy their ammo at FULL retail - which I'm sure is a staggering increase over what they usually buy it for. It would take a coordinated effort. But, as the article mentioned... this is an ugly new era of immense pressure on the 2A. Manufacturers must be more aware of the high stakes than anyone! It's probably time for them to band together on things like this --- for their own survival.

Yes, those large contracts are at a steep discount, BUT they still provide enough profit to keep the roller bearings greased, which in-turn pays for the maintenance & wages of the plant.  The real "gravy" is wholesale distribution to smaller mom & pops w/o contracts.  Speaking of contracts, are these supply contracts short-term OR long term?  Maybe GRIZ would know?  I ask this because the entire issue is ripe with emotionalism.  Meaning we want our manufacturers to be red, white & blue so we don't throw them under da bus.  So what happens if say Olin has a 3 year contract with an Anti-Gun state?  Will emotional 2A Patriots WAIT for the current contract to run-out or will they show-up with pitchforks & unloaded open-carry AR's in front of the plant to make a statement?

These ammo suppliers don't operate in a vacuum.  They know the ropes.  They've had to struggle to keep-up with demand.  They've had to import their lead because we no longer smelt it in the US (cause Government restrictions & Gov's "we know better than YOU policies)!  They've had to invest in new equipment to meet the demand.  Their investors don't wanna see that equipment idled so stock prices are stable.  

Fellas & Lady, I'll admit I don't have ALL of the answers here to this complicated problem.  I do know that treating an ammo manufacturer DIFFERENTLY because they have to fulfill or be SUED is blatantly wrong & emotional.  This conversation we're having HERE will be repeated over & over at the NRA convention.  So before I try to "solve the problem", I'm going to let the industry leaders get together at this GIANT TRADE SHOW to work TOGETHER  

[W2MC 1,699]

What I'd like to know is why is it ok for New York to discriminate; but some poor schlub baker HAS to bake that wedding cake?  

[AlexTheSane 236]

3 minutes ago, W2MC said:

What I'd like to know is why is it ok for New York to discriminate; but some poor schlub baker HAS to bake that wedding cake?  

Because gun owners are not considered to be a protected class of people.

[W2MC 1,699]

Getting married is a protected class?