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newjersey1

Need help finding a medical doctor that will sign off for gun permit.

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Hey guys, I'm new to the forum but I came here to hopefully resolve the issue I'm having once and for all. I'm trying to find a medical doctor that will sign off so I can get my gun permit. 

Long story short, when I was younger (10+ years ago) I had family issues that lead me to have anger problems and was truant and didn't want to go to school - I was sent to a mental institution to be evaluated but was deemed not a threat and released the same day. Obviously, due to the fact that I went to such an institution, it came up during my gun application process. The Sgt. in the local PD I have been working with has been extremely helpful during this year-long-gun-application-limbo with me trying to find a medical doctor, however after speaking with numerous psychologists, psychiatrists and medical doctors no one wanted to get involved and sign off for me, and we all know the answer why they don't want to be held accountable if something were to happen. After I exhausted all options and had no one else to turn to I found a forensic psychologist who is one of the most reputable in New Jersey. I told him my story, he agreed to help, and he evaluated me and wrote a very lengthy and detailed report that I was mentally fit, I do not have a mental disorder, and that I'm safe to handle firearms (the biggest delay in the process of this was waiting on my medical records from the hospital so the forensic psychologist could base his report on it).

The report was personally submitted to the local PD by the psychologist and I was told by the Sgt. that it looks incredible and it was much more detailed than he expected, he told me he needed to run it by a few people and he would call me back but he said I should be good to go! However, he called back a few days later and told me that we want to accept you but you will still need to have a signature from a medical doctor… I was at a loss for words! I paid a great amount of money, went for a mental evaluation that took hours and tested me on numerous levels, and that wasn’t good enough? When I told the psychologist what happened, he said they should have approved it. So, I’m back to square one and if I can’t find a medical doctor this time around I will have to have my application rejected and appeal it in court, and I will most likely be using Nappen (one of the forensic psychologists recommendations) to represent me, along with bringing in the forensic psychologist that evaluated me as well. At this point, this is one of my last options coming to this forum, if anyone has any recommendations of a doctor that is familiar with this type of stuff please direct me in their direction by either leaving a comment below or private message, I've heard there are a few out there that could help but the problem is finding out who those doctors are.

Thank you for looking.
 

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1 minute ago, Zeke said:

I thought juvenile records are sealed.

That's what I initially thought, so when I filled out the application for the local PD I didn't disclose that I went to a mental institution nor that I saw a physiatrist when I went there. I honestly didn't think it would come up since I was a juvenile and also since it happened 10+ years ago. However, I was wrong, I guess anything that has to do with mental health whether it be as a juvenile or adult is fair game and is flagged in the system. Luckily the Sgt. I'm working with was very understanding and didn't penalize me for not filling out the application correctly.

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17 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Or perhaps the attending doc from your truancy exp.. i’d start there

It's good that you brought that up, the Sgt. I'm working with specified I should try to get in contact with the doctor who first saw me at the mental institution and try to find out if he could sign off since he was the initial doctor who dealt with my case. However, I contacted him and left him a voicemail about my current situation with trying to get a gun permit, and I never got a call back from him. I found out from the Sgt. that he contacted him and said that he wasn't able to get involved or even talk to me because I was a juvenile back when this all took place and that he couldn't disclose any other information beyond that. It really doesn't make sense that he couldn't help me out.

At this point, all I need is a signature from a regular medical doctor from what the police Sgt. has said, but many won't just sign for a random person that they hardly know, I could understand if I was going to the same doctor for years and I was friendly with him it wouldn't be a problem. However, the problem for me is that I don't have a primary care physician, I just go to urgent care if I have an issue, and I'm one hundred percent sure they won't help me out but I'm thinking about still giving it a try as I do have a mental evaluation report from a forensic psychologist that states I'm fine, so hopefully a doctor will take that into consideration.

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can the psych doc refer you to a MD that he gets referrals from? I think having the psych referral back to a MD that trusts him with his explanation might be enough to get the MD to meet with you and then sign off. He might even want to hold a few random appts/meetings to show he did his due diligence. Make all your random appts with this doc when you need to from now on.

 Being another one of those non-MD initialed healthcare doctors like your psych, I find it odd that NJ wants a random MD over the specialist that you saw. It's not that Sgt's fault as he obviously doesn't make the rules, but I can see why he though you were g2g. You wouldn't read a detailed report from neuro about a concussion then make an athlete get the sign off from some random PCP with MD initials. Weird situation.

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7 minutes ago, Sevenshot said:

can the psych doc refer you to a MD that he gets referrals from? I think having the psych referral back to a MD that trusts him with his explanation might be enough to get the MD to meet with you and then sign off. He might even want to hold a few random appts/meetings to show he did his due diligence. Make all your random appts with this doc when you need to from now on.

 Being another one of those non-MD initialed healthcare doctors like your psych, I find it odd that NJ wants a random MD over the specialist that you saw. It's not that Sgt's fault as he obviously doesn't make the rules, but I can see why he though you were g2g. You wouldn't read a detailed report from neuro about a concussion then make an athlete get the sign off from some random PCP with MD initials. Weird situation.

This sounds like the best idea.  Get the referral from the psychologist that cleared you.

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24 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

This sounds like the best idea.  Get the referral from the psychologist that cleared you.

I think that’s what he was saying.  It’s just that usually the MD refers a patient to a psych. This case is opposite. So ask the psych if there is a good MD that usually refers patients to him and make an appointment there.  Since the MD knows and refers other patients to the psych he may be willing to accept the psychs previous report. 

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1 hour ago, Sevenshot said:

can the psych doc refer you to a MD that he gets referrals from? I think having the psych referral back to a MD that trusts him with his explanation might be enough to get the MD to meet with you and then sign off. He might even want to hold a few random appts/meetings to show he did his due diligence. Make all your random appts with this doc when you need to from now on.

 Being another one of those non-MD initialed healthcare doctors like your psych, I find it odd that NJ wants a random MD over the specialist that you saw. It's not that Sgt's fault as he obviously doesn't make the rules, but I can see why he though you were g2g. You wouldn't read a detailed report from neuro about a concussion then make an athlete get the sign off from some random PCP with MD initials. Weird situation.

I already asked the forensic psychologist who evaluated me if he had any referrals to medical doctors, he told me he didn't, I would've thought that he would, I even asked the Sgt. that I have been working with if he knew anybody and he couldn't help me either. On the other hand, I couldn't agree with you more! I don't understand why an expert such as a forensic psychologists evaluation and report are being dismissed in favor of a sign-off from any medical doctor, even the police officer said I can go to "any" medical doctor as specified by the New Jersey State Police guidelines which he told me he is abiding by, I would trust an expert in the field of psychology before any random medical doctor, I'm not sure why they aren't thinking like that. However, from what my psychologist explained, he said that the law is this in my given situation: medical doctor or psychiatrist/psychologist sign-off, or satisfactory approval from the police department, e.g., the mental evaluation report that was submitted to them which they stated was perfect. Essentially, something is not making sense here with my gun permit not being approved by the department, the mental evaluation and the detailed report should have been sufficient grounds for approval.

The forensic psychologist explained that the police department is just being naive with me and trying to make it more challenging because they are used to accepting and denying applications and not people fighting back, basically when someone is flagged/rejected they decide to just settle with it and they don't usually keep going with trying to resolve the problem like I am. He also specified that it could be a case of them just not wanting more civilians with guns, that it's a political issue in the town. On the other hand, the police officer is telling me that he's just following instructions from the New Jersey State Police and that they want a medical doctors approval, however, the psychologist told me the New Jersey State Police has nothing to do with this process and that each town accepts and denies applicants individually. He also specified that out of all of the cases he has dealt with this has never happened before, so something is definitely not right with this situation. So, if I can't find a medical doctor I will have to lawyer up and bring this to Hackensack.

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4 hours ago, Zeke said:

But you sign a mental health Records release....

Yup, my forensic psychologist sent a release to the hospital so he could base his evaluation on it. However, even with obtaining my medical records now, I know that doctor I initially saw when I went there many years ago will still want nothing to do with this, he already specified that. It doesn't make sense to me, but it is what it is.

 

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Just now, newjersey1 said:

Yup, my forensic psychologist sent it to the hospital so he could base his evaluation on it. However, even with obtaining my medical records now, I know that doctor I initially saw when I went there when I was younger wants nothing to do with this, he already specified that. It doesn't make sense, but it is what it is.

 

There is an appeals process. It goes before a state Supreme Court judge.

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I'm not a legal expert so you'd have to hire Nappen for the specifics. It wouldn't surprise me if the local PD can refer specfic cases or ask for advice on cases to NJSP that aren't explicitly spelled out.

still crazy to me that an expensive psych specialist isn't more valuable in this case. So an Achilles repair specialist with MD after his name is g2g? Might be something weird with the wording of whatever procedure they follow. Could even be a misinterpretation by local PD of something that isn't clearly defined. These are all things you will need a legal expert to figure out.

good luck and keep us posted. I'd be interested to hear once it's done.

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2 hours ago, Zeke said:

There is an appeals process. It goes before a state Supreme Court judge.

Trust me I know, I'm currently in the process of talking to attorney Evan F. Nappen who I was recommended to talk to by my forensic psychologist. If this case does proceed to court, both Nappan and my forensic psychologist will be representing me. However, I'm trying to exhaust every other option before going to court, and if there is a doctor out there that could sign-off that would be the best case scenario right now for me instead of shelling out thousands of dollars with litigation. However, trying to find a doctor that will do that is like finding a needle in a haystack it seems, and if I found one from what I heard it would cost a pretty penny as well.

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2 hours ago, Sevenshot said:

I'm not a legal expert so you'd have to hire Nappen for the specifics. It wouldn't surprise me if the local PD can refer specfic cases or ask for advice on cases to NJSP that aren't explicitly spelled out.

still crazy to me that an expensive psych specialist isn't more valuable in this case. So an Achilles repair specialist with MD after his name is g2g? Might be something weird with the wording of whatever procedure they follow. Could even be a misinterpretation by local PD of something that isn't clearly defined. These are all things you will need a legal expert to figure out.

good luck and keep us posted. I'd be interested to hear once it's done.

Exactly, I know the Sgt. I'm working with is a good guy and the department has helped me tremendously while this application has been open for about a year, he told me himself, the Captain and even Chief want to approve me but they are just following guidelines. So there must be some fine print somewhere in these types of sticky situations that they have to follow. I just would have thought that they would take an expert forensic psychologist that supplied an extremely detailed report over any random doctor just to get a signature.

I will definitely keep you guys posted, maybe this whole thing has to do with the even stricter regulations for obtaining a gun permit especially in New Jersey, and even more so if someone had any kind of previous mental history. Right now, the mental health topic has been in the spotlight of the media due to what's been going on lately, so who knows. Maybe I'm the test subject since the mental health checks are supposed to be getting even stricter? Lol.

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42 minutes ago, BobA said:

And Nappen said that what they’re doing with a juvenile record is okay?!!  If so you might want a second opinion. 

I haven't talked to Nappen directly yet, as my forensic psychologist who is friends with him is still in the process of letting him know what's going on with my situation. Hopefully, this whole thing doesn't go as far as court, but since it's becoming very difficult to find a doctor who would be willing to sign-off for me I don't have many options anymore. I really don't understand why my juvenile record of going to a mental institution aka Bergen Regional/Bergen Pines 10+ years ago even turned up but as I said in a previous post I think if you want a gun permit both juvenile and adult records are fair game for them to flag, especially if there is a mental health history, even more so in today's day and age.

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A psychologist can attest to your mental health.  A medical doctor can attest to your physical health.  It seems pretty simple to get a medical doctor to do a checkup and provide a copy of whatever standard form they use showing no medical diseases, BP, etc.

I think you're being tricked.  The first insurmountable hurdle was finding a psyc who would declare you harmless.   After you overcame that hurdle, they throw another hurdle in the way.

I think you need a lawyer to write a letter to force them to clearly explain what the requirements are for getting your permit so they can't continue to make up something new every time you comply with the last made up thing.

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2 hours ago, maintenanceguy said:

A psychologist can attest to your mental health.  A medical doctor can attest to your physical health.  It seems pretty simple to get a medical doctor to do a checkup and provide a copy of whatever standard form they use showing no medical diseases, BP, etc.

I think you're being tricked.  The first insurmountable hurdle was finding a psyc who would declare you harmless.   After you overcame that hurdle, they throw another hurdle in the way.

I think you need a lawyer to write a letter to force them to clearly explain what the requirements are for getting your permit so they can't continue to make up something new every time you comply with the last made up thing.

This.

A forensic psychologist is licensed by the state to make determinations of mental health. I would ask why the Police Department wants you to see a medical doctor, or psychiatrist when a licensed mental health professional has already provided an evaluation. A lawyer will be able to put this in writing and request formal responses so that a paper trail will form if it does need to go to court. The police department will be forced to basically either say ok, or defend the refusal to accept an evaluation of a licensed mental health professional.

 

If the police wanted to help you, they would have accepted it. don't be Naive.

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Yeah I have to agree with a couple posters above it sounds like your biggest issue here is actually local cops and they're just doing a little trick here where they're pretending like they want to give you a permit but just "can't". The dead giveaway here is that they want you to go to a physical Dr to get an evaluation of Mental Health which is impossible because no physician can or will make that determination. 

 

Also, remember that COPS ARE PEOPLE. And people have opinions. This isn't pro or anti cop. Just facts. You may meet plenty of cops at the range who are cool guys that believe in 2A. But there's also tons of cops that just think people owning guns shouldn't be allowed. Or worse, you meet cops that think only people like them should have guns. Guess which two out of those three types are most common in NJ?

Chief of the town I used to live in literally stated he did not think anyone should own a gun for any reason, not even hunting because you can go use a bow. The guy who got his job after him thinks NJ laws are flat out dumb and speaks openly about it. The permit turnaround time is well under a month almost every time. I went in for a single handgun permit one time, he told me to fill out an app for 2, "it's only an extra $2 and you've got time to change your mind" he told me. Solid guy. 

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16 hours ago, newjersey1 said:

Exactly, I know the Sgt. I'm working with is a good guy and the department has helped me tremendously while this application has been open for about a year, he told me himself, the Captain and even Chief want to approve me but they are just following guidelines. So there must be some fine print somewhere in these types of sticky situations that they have to follow. I just would have thought that they would take an expert forensic psychologist that supplied an extremely detailed report over any random doctor just to get a signature.

I will definitely keep you guys posted, maybe this whole thing has to do with the even stricter regulations for obtaining a gun permit especially in New Jersey, and even more so if someone had any kind of previous mental history. Right now, the mental health topic has been in the spotlight of the media due to what's been going on lately, so who knows. Maybe I'm the test subject since the mental health checks are supposed to be getting even stricter? Lol.

The I am just following orders speech, don’t believe it.

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23 hours ago, maintenanceguy said:

A psychologist can attest to your mental health.  A medical doctor can attest to your physical health.  It seems pretty simple to get a medical doctor to do a checkup and provide a copy of whatever standard form they use showing no medical diseases, BP, etc.

I think you're being tricked.  The first insurmountable hurdle was finding a psyc who would declare you harmless.   After you overcame that hurdle, they throw another hurdle in the way.

I think you need a lawyer to write a letter to force them to clearly explain what the requirements are for getting your permit so they can't continue to make up something new every time you comply with the last made up thing.

Exactly! Something isn't adding up with this situation. I went to see a forensic psychologist, someone that should be held in higher regard with this specific case, there is little to no reason why I should now need a write off from a medical doctor, it's ridiculous. The mental evaluation took several hours which even included a 500 question test. When he was finished he revolved his very thorough and detailed report based on what the medical records stated. The conclusion was that I was mentally fit and able to handle firearms.

I just don't understand why the police department is doing this, as I've said in a previous post the forensic psychologist said that the report itself should have been grounds for approval, the law even states that going to a professional like a psychologist is sufficient, and I even have the satisfactory evidence, e.g., the detailed report based on my mental evaluation. What's next? Let's say I do get a write off from a doctor and send it in, what will the next excuse be? That I have tinted windows on my car? Seriously, they aren't following the law, and my psychologist even called the Sgt. and called them out on what they were doing, the funny thing was that the police officer didn't seem to have much to say and kept going back to, "We're just following what we're told from the New Jersey State Police and that they want the doctor write off." My psychologist ending off by telling me, "They're being naive and screwing with you."

21 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

This.

A forensic psychologist is licensed by the state to make determinations of mental health. I would ask why the Police Department wants you to see a medical doctor, or psychiatrist when a licensed mental health professional has already provided an evaluation. A lawyer will be able to put this in writing and request formal responses so that a paper trail will form if it does need to go to court. The police department will be forced to basically either say ok, or defend the refusal to accept an evaluation of a licensed mental health professional.

 

If the police wanted to help you, they would have accepted it. don't be Naive.

I have asked the Sgt. at the police department and he just tells me that he's following instructions from the New Jersey State Police and that they're requesting I should have a doctor write off for me, however, I've heard otherwise and that the State Police doesn't have much say on these matters and that it comes down to the town accepting or denying the application, so something isn't adding up here! From what I've been told, the police department will have no case and as soon as it gets to court or even before that it will be dismissed and I will be approved, but why is the police department putting me through this if they know what they're doing won't hold up in court? Do they think I will just give up and tell them to withdraw or reject my application? They must think I won't spend money on one of the best lawyers for this, of course, I will, and I'll even have my expert forensic psychologist there too. I'll go all the way maybe even farther in court since this whole process shouldn't be like this. The ironic thing here is that I'm about to graduate college with a Bachelors in Homeland Security and Counter-Terrorism, I'm trying to become a police officer myself!

I know they could have accepted it, but it seems they just don't want to. I don't know if it's the police department or the other bigwigs in the town calling the shots. I've heard that they might not want too many civilians in the town with guns and that it's a political issue. However, it's ridiculous, I have every right to own firearms, and I was mentally cleared by a forensic psychologist from a past issue 10+ years ago.

20 hours ago, mossburger said:

Yeah I have to agree with a couple posters above it sounds like your biggest issue here is actually local cops and they're just doing a little trick here where they're pretending like they want to give you a permit but just "can't". The dead giveaway here is that they want you to go to a physical Dr to get an evaluation of Mental Health which is impossible because no physician can or will make that determination. 

 

Also, remember that COPS ARE PEOPLE. And people have opinions. This isn't pro or anti cop. Just facts. You may meet plenty of cops at the range who are cool guys that believe in 2A. But there's also tons of cops that just think people owning guns shouldn't be allowed. Or worse, you meet cops that think only people like them should have guns. Guess which two out of those three types are most common in NJ?

Chief of the town I used to live in literally stated he did not think anyone should own a gun for any reason, not even hunting because you can go use a bow. The guy who got his job after him thinks NJ laws are flat out dumb and speaks openly about it. The permit turnaround time is well under a month almost every time. I went in for a single handgun permit one time, he told me to fill out an app for 2, "it's only an extra $2 and you've got time to change your mind" he told me. Solid guy. 

I know, everyone keeps telling me that the police aren't being straightforward with this matter. I just don't get it, this whole situation isn't right. And exactly, almost no doctor will write off for that, and if so I'm probably going to have to pay thousands for a write off that I'm cleared, but it's like finding a needle in the haystack looking for the right doctor or being recommended by someone that knows one. I also agree! I think why they won't approve it is that it's a political issue in the town with civilians owning guns, it has to be that. I would state the town and everyone here would be like, "that's why" but I'm not going to name and shame because I don't know who's looking at these forums.

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And Nappen said that what they’re doing with a juvenile record is okay?!!  If so you might want a second opinion. 


Yes all of your juvenile records have been entered into a new database. I found this out a copy rounds of permits ago. It just has the arrests but not the outcomes. At least in my situation that was the case. I had my complete record expunge before applying to law school. However since this new juvenile database didn’t exist they didn’t have the expungement order. Because the court cases were expunged the firearms officer couldn’t find out anything about the cases. Luckily my mother saves everything. There was multiple false arrests and accusations for assault that a judge each time agreed were trumped up charges and either threw the case out or found me not guilty. Upon showing the outcomes of the cases to the firearms officer my permits were granted. I then served the new juvenile database with the expungement order. I double checked with firearms officer that nothing came up from them on my most recent background check for my most recent permits, nothing did and a clean record was returned.


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OP do you have the results of your mental evaluation from the hospital from when you were a juvenile? If so and you weren’t found to be crazy that should end the problem. The police will not have access to a juvenile psych evaluation. Just that you were admitted to a mental hospital.


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18 minutes ago, capt14k said:

OP do you have the results of your mental evaluation from the hospital from when you were a juvenile? If so and you weren’t found to be crazy that should end the problem. The police will not have access to a juvenile psych evaluation. Just that you were admitted to a mental hospital.


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I do have the medical records from when I went to the hospital, I was released the same day and deemed not a threat. However, since I went to that type of institution that's what's coming up in the database for the police it seems, it doesn't say why in the system, and that's because I was a juvenile. Regardless, it shouldn't matter anymore because I was just evaluated and cleared by a forensic psychologist who is one of the best in the practice regarding these types of matters, and still, the police are wanting a normal physician to give me a write off instead of taking the word from an expert that deals with mental issues with people on a daily basis. We're talking about a forensic psychologist, these guys are the ones that evaluate police officers before they get a job, there's no one better in that field.

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I do have the medical records from when I went to the hospital, I was released the same day and deemed not a threat. However, since I went to that type of institution that's what's coming up in the database for the police it seems, it doesn't say why in the system, and that's because I was a juvenile. Regardless, it shouldn't matter anymore because I was just evaluated by a forensic psychologist, one of the best in the practice regarding these types of matters, and still, the police are wanting a normal physician to give me a write off instead of an expert that deals with mental issues with people on a daily basis.


What PD is this? Did you try getting sign off from hospital that originally signed off. However if you have the records there should be no issue.

Has Nappen returned your calls or email? I do not personally know anybody he has ever responded to except for Pantano, and that case came to a grinding halt.


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