vladtepes 1,060 Posted May 13, 2018 1 minute ago, gfl216 said: "Deadly force" is not the issue. The issue is "intent" what are you talking about.. can you show literally ANY situation where an otherwise justified shoot ended up being a problem because the type of accessories on a gun? when you shoot someone... the important part is being justified or not... your use of a hunting shotgun.. ar15... handgun.. laser.. red dot.. sling.. etc.. is not even remotely relevant.. what is being judged is your actions.. were your actions justified.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bhunted 887 Posted May 13, 2018 Do you, and if it ever comes to it I hope I'm wrong.If it worries you, do not shoot them in the head.You shoot to kill, not maim. Plus a plethora of other reasons. Finally, if its me or them, its me. I can give a shit what happens to me as long as my family is safe and unscathed.And who is the idiot that told you to wound them? Either a tv show or some jackass that is clueless regarding the whole 2A world as most libtards are.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gfl216 226 Posted May 13, 2018 2 hours ago, bhunted said: You shoot to kill, not maim. The prosecutor is gonna love you Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted May 13, 2018 you do not as far as I am aware.. have ANY legal obligation to shoot a person in a "less lethal" area.. there is no legal standard for a gun that is "allowed", with the exception of a weapon that is already prohibited.. by all means.. if you are aware of any law that counters that statement.. please feel free to share.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted May 13, 2018 1 minute ago, gfl216 said: The prosecutor is gonna love you you shoot to stop the threat.. you are under no legal obligation for shot placement into a threat... arm.. face.. chest.. you shoot to stop the threat.. what that means is if you hit an arm.. and the threat goes down... you can not walk up and "finish them off"... because the threat has stopped being a threat.. besides that.. all is fair.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted May 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Persona non grata said: I like my Streamlight TLR-2G on my VP9. I always laugh when I use it at the range. It's like using cheat codes. My VP9 happens to be my main HD gun. I'll take a laser at 3 AM, thank you very much. I tend to focus more on the laser then my sights.. and what happens if battery goes poof and no worky? I personally don’t believe it makes her or any better. Cough, my wife even with a freaking laser is still not as accurate as I am.. @Mrs. Peel Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bhunted 887 Posted May 13, 2018 The prosecutor is gonna love you Actually, hope you survive to make it that far. Stop talking crap and post your proof.I think the laser thread is derailed. Oh well.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobA 1,235 Posted May 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, bhunted said: I think the laser thread is derailed. Oh well. Yes. It is indeed derailed. So I feel comfortable with this: I always seem to read threads regarding the law when it comes to shot to kill. What I don't see often enough are the penalties in a civil suit. If the scumbag that climbed in your window has any type of family then rest assured you will be sued. No matter how justifiable and legal the suit that scumbag will suddenly be come the worlds greatest Dad with a future that included a PhD. worth millions. You will be served with a wrongful death suit in civil court. Your homeowner's will not cover and no lawyer will work on contingency for you. Wounding to stop the threat is your way out of having to pay the most in settlement. Now, why am I so confident about this? Because Karen, my fiance, significant other, life partner, or what ever we are to call our better halves these days, is a scopest. What is a scopest you ask? In a court or deposition you have your stenograher typing all the words said. They take the funny tape from those machines to a scopest who in turn types them into the briefs the lawyers get and sell to you for 19 times what the scopest got to type them. We hear it all. from criminal mob cases to wrongful death to slip and falls to workers comp to you name it. If the worst happens and we have to protect our selves and/or our families we will still pay dearly for years to come. Remeber, OJ was found not guilty in criminal court and guilty in civil court. Granted he deserved it but none the less it goes on every day. Many of these cop justifiable shoots you see where the cop is vindicated, the city still pays out civilly. So, the bottom line? Shoot to stop and not to kill unless you absolutely must. You'll pay out a lot less in the end. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted May 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, BobA said: Yes. It is indeed derailed. So I feel comfortable with this: I always seem to read threads regarding the law when it comes to shot to kill. What I don't see often enough are the penalties in a civil suit. If the scumbag that climbed in your window has any type of family then rest assured you will be sued. No matter how justifiable and legal the suit that scumbag will suddenly be come the worlds greatest Dad with a future that included a PhD. worth millions. You will be served with a wrongful death suit in civil court. Your homeowner's will not cover and no lawyer will work on contingency for you. Wounding to stop the threat is your way out of having to pay the most in settlement. Now, why am I so confident about this? Because Karen, my fiance, significant other, life partner, or what ever we are to call our better halves these days, is a scopest. What is a scopest you ask? In a court or deposition you have your stenograher typing all the words said. They take the funny tape from those machines to a scopest who in turn types them into the briefs the lawyers get and sell to you for 19 times what the scopest got to type them. We hear it all. from criminal mob cases to wrongful death to slip and falls to workers comp to you name it. If the worst happens and we have to protect our selves and/or our families we will still pay dearly for years to come. Remeber, OJ was found not guilty in criminal court and guilty in civil court. Granted he deserved it but none the less it goes on every day. Many of these cop justifiable shoots you see where the cop is vindicated, the city still pays out civilly. So, the bottom line? Shoot to stop and not to kill unless you absolutely must. You'll pay out a lot less in the end. A laser isn’t going to make you pay more. And, and, how much is your life worth? If you are dead you’re not taking it to Valhalla. But We digress... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sniper 6,372 Posted May 13, 2018 1 hour ago, gfl216 said: Lets say someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night and you shoot them in the forehead using a laser as a sight. The prosecutor could potentially bring charges against you because it could be argued that your intention was to kill that person Well, then in your case, I hope the only thing you're packing for self-defense is a water gun in your house. Can't be having any weapon capable of causing injury to an intruder showing "intent to kill". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobA 1,235 Posted May 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, Zeke said: A laser isn’t going to make you pay more. Well I could disagree but we do digress Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted May 13, 2018 Just now, BobA said: Well I could disagree but we do digress Then don’t shoot. It’s life or death. Not dudes stealing my shit.. sorry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sniper 6,372 Posted May 13, 2018 2 hours ago, capt14k said: If you have a good laser and properly sighted in it is point and shoot. 3 hours ago, Persona non grata said: I'll take a laser at 3 AM, thank you very much. Exactly why I put lasers on my HD handguns. The last thing I want to do is try to get over the sights in low light to make sure I'm on target. If that red dot is on center mass, I can pull the trigger, no matter where the gun is actually positioned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted May 13, 2018 22 hours ago, sota said: I stuck a Crimson Trace CMR-201 on the P2000SK that'smy bump-in-the-night gun. I have a 2nd CMR-201 coming from the BOGOF program CT had recently. I have a pair of cheap (literally, $5) lasers on the P30L and SR22 that I use for trigger control practice and training. I have to re-zero the one on the P30 after every range session... it's THAT crappy You’ve given me a great idea for my wife and i’s Next range session. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted May 13, 2018 Wheres the "this is not how any of this works" meme? gfl, if you dont mind, show me just 1 case study that would substantiate your concern. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bhunted 887 Posted May 13, 2018 I’ll reiterate. If it means saving my family, so be it. Not for nothing but I’ve had colleagues try to stop an active shooter where 6 rounds or more did not stop them. Chances are, they may be on drugs, heavily clothing, or over weight among other things. You may not have a chance to put another round into the perp. One shot one kill. Nothing you or anyone says will deter me from doing so.I may die, go to jail, etc. But my family, including my dog, will be alive. I’ll consider it a job well done if that is the outcome. I’m fine meeting my maker under those conditions.As for getting sued, you most likely will no matter what. In the old days, you were supported and not sued for defending yourself. They said drag the idiot all the way into the window and put a knife in their hand and the LE would do the rest. Times have changed and every man for themselves. Thanks to the sheister lawyers and judges out there that let that happen. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. Peel 7,157 Posted May 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Zeke said: Cough, my wife even with a freaking laser is still not as accurate as I am.. @Mrs. Peel LIAR!!!! Again I say: LIAR!!! @Mrs.Zeke ? --- you might want to take care of this problem - this egregious spread of "fake news" to the deficit of your own reputation. Scandalous! 5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted May 13, 2018 21 minutes ago, Shane45 said: Wheres the "this is not how any of this works" meme? gfl, if you dont mind, show me just 1 case study that would substantiate your concern. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,369 Posted May 13, 2018 22 hours ago, High Exposure said: Yet another backup sighting system and it’s great for shooting with a promask. In a team environment, you can also point to stuff, ID your position, and it’s a decent deescalation tool. I agree. However, most people mount lasers as a crutch thinking it will compensate for poor sighting and trigger control. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted May 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, GRIZ said: I agree. However, most people mount lasers as a crutch thinking it will compensate for poor sighting and trigger control. That’s the caveat . And a conundrum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,369 Posted May 13, 2018 Let's put one argument here in proper context. You are not shooting to kill. You are not shooting to wound. You are shooting to stop. If you shoot and miss and the bad guy throws up his hands and gives up or runs away you've stopped him. If he gets shot in the medulla oblongata he stops. The basic premise of laws allowing you to use lethal force are based on the concept the bad guy is doing something so bad they need to be stopped. What they are doing is so bad it doesn't make a difference if the bad guy lives or dies, they have to be stopped. That's it. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted May 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Shane45 said: Ray, go take a quality no light, low light class that covers lasers lights and red dots and then speak from a position other than your feelings. I had a Veridian green laser on my Cx4, so I am not speaking from my ass. The KISS method is key here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,661 Posted May 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Shane45 said: Wheres the "this is not how any of this works" meme? gfl, if you dont mind, show me just 1 case study that would substantiate your concern. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,661 Posted May 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Ray Ray said: I had a Veridian green laser on my Cx4, so I am not speaking from my ass. The KISS method is key here. You are speaking from your ass. Having had a green Veridian laser on your handy-dandy Beretta PCC makes you no more of an authority on this topic than owning a guitar makes you Jimmi Hendrix. The KISS concept is applicable to a great many things and I actually am a subscriber - however it needs to be taken in context. Blindly following KISS as an absolute would having you riding a BMX bike in the Tour De France. 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted May 13, 2018 17 minutes ago, High Exposure said: . Blindly following KISS as an absolute would having you riding a BMX bike in the Tour De France. @diamondd817 case! @Ray Raydoesn’t win da France! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted May 13, 2018 16 minutes ago, High Exposure said: You are speaking from your ass. Having had a green Veridian laser on your handy-dandy Beretta PCC makes you no more of an authority on this topic than owning a guitar makes you Jimmi Hendrix. The KISS concept is applicable to a great many things and I actually am a subscriber - however it needs to be taken in context. Blindly following KISS as an absolute would having you riding a BMX bike in the Tour De France. NONE of us are Jimi Hendrix or professional BMX riders or whatever. Bad comparison. We are citizens who shoot a few times a month and prepare ourselves for what life brings. Nothing more, nothing less. So, the KISS method works for us. We are not kicking in doors in Afghanistan or Newark. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted May 13, 2018 Ad hominem... me likey! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diamondd817 826 Posted May 13, 2018 20 minutes ago, Zeke said: @diamondd817 case! @Ray Raydoesn’t win da France! I would take a BMX bike to the Tour De France. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sota 1,191 Posted May 13, 2018 4 hours ago, Zeke said: You’ve given me a great idea for my wife and i’s Next range session. I will say my personal experience, is within 1000 dry fire reps I've already seen a marked improvement in my front sight stability. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
capt14k 2,052 Posted May 14, 2018 NONE of us are Jimi Hendrix or professional BMX riders or whatever. Bad comparison. We are citizens who shoot a few times a month and prepare ourselves for what life brings. Nothing more, nothing less. So, the KISS method works for us. We are not kicking in doors in Afghanistan or Newark. This is true. Though I had mentioned previously how I had bought many accessories for my AR-15 and the laser was one of them. With the laser at the indoor range it's point and shoot. If I happened to grab my AR-15 for a SD situation I would be confident I would hit wherever that laser is pointed. I don't have one on a pistol but I imagine it is the same. How is that a bad thing? Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites