nondisclosure 55 Posted June 23, 2019 36 minutes ago, JackDaWack said: Can you qoute the text? And remember this is a response directly to a manufacturer/s. I tried looking but didn't find what you are referring to. Therw are 2 documents in the links. If it was directly to a manufacturer, why did they not state, that it is OK to manufacture. Manufacture is not Construct. the question was, can I legally construct an ar15 type firearm, In which case the state police specifically says yes, such a firearm would not be subject to NFA/AOW provided it is greater than 26 and not concealed. In the question, it specifically states can *I*, not we, Franklin armory, Troy, manufacture such firearm. i is personal, relating to the specific individual, not business related. It’s a shame these manufacturers want it all for themselves. Makes me almost want to never purchase their products for the way they are handling this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted June 23, 2019 @nondisclosure Thats from the ATF not the NJSP..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,570 Posted June 23, 2019 Is there a NJ Law that forbids a non-licensee from assembling a firearm from a receiver? NO Is there a Directive, Guideline or Letter from the NJSP/NJAG that forbids the same? NO A non-licensee can assemble, not manufacture, a firearm. NJ Laws are made to forbid, not allow, unless it is in an exemption. IMHO, these Manufacturers are either misinterpreting this letter, or are trying to corner the market by using scare tactics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nondisclosure 55 Posted June 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, JackDaWack said: @nondisclosure Thats from the ATF not the NJSP..... Ok so now let’s refer to the NJSP opinion; From the NJSP: "The New Jersey State Police Firearms Unit finds that the submitted Troy Industries A4 "other firearm" as well as the Dark Storm Industries DS-15 Non-NFA Firearm Typhoon are legal for sale in the State of New Jersey and are NOT considered to be an "assault firearm." This opinion is based upon the two firearms reviewed, however if the design or dimensions change from those samples, it may change the classification of the firearm. ". however, if design or dimensions change, it would change the classification. meaning, if we copy those designs and dimensions with other parts, we are legal. take those specific barrel lengths, brace and vfg, you’re in the legal class of firearm. This is clearly written and all legible. Take a lower, build it, throw on a brace, copy the manufacturers specs, and you have a NJ and federally legal firearm. Do otherwise and you have another class of weapon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nondisclosure 55 Posted June 23, 2019 Just now, PK90 said: Is there a NJ Law that forbids a non-licensee from assembling a firearm from a receiver? NO Is there a Directive, Guideline or Letter from the NJSP/NJAG that forbids the same? NO A non-licensee can assemble, not manufacture, a firearm. NJ Laws are made to forbid, not allow, unless it is in an exemption. IMHO, these Manufacturers are either misinterpreting this letter, or are trying to corner the market by using scare tactics. Thank you! This is exactly what I believe and it’s kind of gross because I was on the verge of ordering one directly from them until I specifically read that it was specific to manufacturers only. (I had a receiver sitting in the safe and would rather use that) roll mark etc and some geissele parts i personally prefer which is the only reason for going the build route. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted June 23, 2019 Im not disagreeing with you... but... What the ATF says doesn't necessarily apply to NJ, as NJ could be more regulated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0Jeep4 87 Posted June 23, 2019 If anyone has a PDF version of the letter can they please post it or a link that I can actually download or print the letter from. Thanks in advance for whoever helps me out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted June 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, 0Jeep4 said: If anyone has a PDF version of the letter can they please post it or a link that I can actually download or print the letter from. Thanks in advance for whoever helps me out. Which one? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Screwball 483 Posted June 23, 2019 22 minutes ago, JackDaWack said: Im not disagreeing with you... but... What the ATF says doesn't necessarily apply to NJ, as NJ could be more regulated. While I personally don’t have to deal with it anymore... as my house in Maine closed yesterday... I’m not seeing it being too easy to build it yourself. Start off with a long gun, you made a SBR. Start off with a pistol, at least in NJ, you might have an “assault weapon.” To get to 26+” OAL, I believe you are likely over 50 ounces. While I didn’t mind the “gray” area with the TAC-14/brace (since Black Aces did the same folding brace setup, and was legal), that is a little too “gray” for me to recommend on the internet. That all being said, I’m going to try to link up with Joe from Modern Materiel sometime that week I get back up to NJ to check out their SBF. I do want to get the Banshee, but I can push that out until we switch over to Glocks (main reason it will be a truck gun... but I’ll toss my .40 SUB-2000 in as a truck gun). But I really don’t see too many short barrel firearm ARs out there. Guess most people just go to AR pistols. The SBF interests me mainly for the vertical grip, as I like running long guns like that. Can’t do it with a pistol. But the longer barrel keeps 5.56mm velocities up a little better than something shorter (less than 10”). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
everythingisnothing 10 Posted June 23, 2019 12 minutes ago, Screwball said: While I personally don’t have to deal with it anymore... as my house in Maine closed yesterday... I’m not seeing it being too easy to build it yourself. Start off with a long gun, you made a SBR. Start off with a pistol, at least in NJ, you might have an “assault weapon.” To get to 26+” OAL, I believe you are likely over 50 ounces. While I didn’t mind the “gray” area with the TAC-14/brace (since Black Aces did the same folding brace setup, and was legal), that is a little too “gray” for me to recommend on the internet. That all being said, I’m going to try to link up with Joe from Modern Materiel sometime that week I get back up to NJ to check out their SBF. I do want to get the Banshee, but I can push that out until we switch over to Glocks (main reason it will be a truck gun... but I’ll toss my .40 SUB-2000 in as a truck gun). But I really don’t see too many short barrel firearm ARs out there. Guess most people just go to AR pistols. The SBF interests me mainly for the vertical grip, as I like running long guns like that. Can’t do it with a pistol. But the longer barrel keeps 5.56mm velocities up a little better than something shorter (less than 10”). As far as I know, you cannot start with a pistol or a rifle, but I could be wrong. But it should be easy with a new lower receiver. Build the lower, put a VFG on an upper (before putting it on the lower), mate the receivers, and you're good to go. I'm sure someone will bring up constructive intent but that could keep you from doing a normal rifle build in NJ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,662 Posted June 23, 2019 I checked out the Modern Materiél SBF on my way home on Friday. It’s awesome! I’m really excited they did this and the fact they they are based in N.J. - to me - is even better. I checked out the parts list - It’s quality stuff. You may save some money building your own, but you’d have to use inferior parts and look for sales on shipping. Personally, the juice just isn’t worth the squeeze to build one. I’m going to buy one from MM ASAP. Then not only do I get the SBF but I also get the support of the company and their warranty, and there is no confusion of how it was built, where it came from, or if I’m outside the parameters of the current rules. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,570 Posted June 23, 2019 The only reason you can not build one from a pistol in NJ is because the pistol would be over 50 ounces and not legal to start with. Outside of NJ, who cares or wants a 26"+ firearm when they can have any length. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SJG 253 Posted June 23, 2019 20 minutes ago, High Exposure said: I checked out the Modern Materiél SBF on my way home on Friday. It’s awesome! I’m really excited they did this and the fact they they are based in N.J. - to me - is even better. I checked out the parts list - It’s quality stuff. You may save some money building your own, but you’d have to use inferior parts and look for sales on shipping. Personally, the juice just isn’t worth the squeeze to build one. I’m going to buy one from MM ASAP. Then not only do I get the SBF but I also get the support of the company and their warranty, and there is no confusion of how it was built, where it came from, or if I’m outside the parameters of the current rules. How much are they selling it for? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samtechlan 23 Posted June 23, 2019 28 minutes ago, PK90 said: The only reason you can not build one from a pistol in NJ is because the pistol would be over 50 ounces and not legal to start with. Outside of NJ, who cares or wants a 26"+ firearm when they can have any length. Because they might want the vfg without having to go the sbr route. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,570 Posted June 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, samtechlan said: Because they might want the vfg without having to go the sbr route. Okay. The ONLY reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,662 Posted June 23, 2019 28 minutes ago, SJG said: How much are they selling it for? https://modernmateriel.com/product-category/modmat15/ $1295 on their website. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samtechlan 23 Posted June 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Screwball said: That all being said, I’m going to try to link up with Joe from Modern Materiel sometime that week I get back up to NJ to check out their SBF. I do want to get the Banshee, but I can push that out until we switch over to Glocks (main reason it will be a truck gun... but I’ll toss my .40 SUB-2000 in as a truck gun). But I really don’t see too many short barrel firearm ARs out there. Guess most people just go to AR pistols. I'm thinking about the Banshee as well and it would be a simple thing for CMMG to build (for the NJ market) some of the 9mm models with a slightly longer barrel (the current ones have an 8" tube) or a permanently attached longish fh plus the all important vfg to get to the 26" OAL. The main advantage over the Modern Materiel 9mm firearm would be the radial delayed blowback of the Banshee rather than the straight blowback of the MM. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SJG 253 Posted June 23, 2019 VFG: If it folds for storage, do you think it would be a no go? Would the length of the VFG make any difference? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0Jeep4 87 Posted June 23, 2019 2 hours ago, JackDaWack said: Which one? NJSP approval of The “non NFA” firearm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RUTGERS95 890 Posted June 23, 2019 Ok so what exactly can i build? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EngineerJet 191 Posted June 23, 2019 Im late the the party. I recently saw the modern materiel SBF and I'm wondering if i can build the same as well. One question I have is that when you buy a stripped lower, its considered a rifle. So if you already have a stripped lower, can you build your own copy of the SBF and have it be legal? considering the SBF is an "other firearm" and not a rifle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nondisclosure 55 Posted June 23, 2019 1 minute ago, EngineerJet said: Im late the the party. I recently saw the modern materiel SBF and I'm wondering if i can build the same as well. One question I have is that when you buy a stripped lower, its considered a rifle. So if you already have a stripped lower, can you build your own copy of the SBF and have it be legal? considering the SBF is an "other firearm" and not a rifle. Stripped lowers aren’t considered rifles until it becomes a rifle. so you can’t take an ar15 that was purchased as a rifle, and make it one of these firearms. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EngineerJet 191 Posted June 23, 2019 Just now, nondisclosure said: Stripped lowers aren’t considered rifles until it becomes a rifle. so you can’t take an ar15 that was purchased as a rifle, and make it one of these firearms. (i know nothing here is legal advice) So i can essentially, can someone with a stripped lower, just look up the specs and parts for this SBF, and build one themselves (11.5 barrel, overall length 26.1" brace, etc) and be legal? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nondisclosure 55 Posted June 23, 2019 Just now, EngineerJet said: (i know nothing here is legal advice) So i can essentially, can someone with a stripped lower, just look up the specs and parts for this SBF, and build one themselves (11.5 barrel, overall length 26.1" brace, etc) and be legal? Many have already done this. NJSP said the configurations have to be virtual identical to the ones listed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted June 23, 2019 1 hour ago, 0Jeep4 said: NJSP approval of The “non NFA” firearm Modern Material posted it a page back 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EngineerJet 191 Posted June 23, 2019 1 minute ago, nondisclosure said: Many have already done this. NJSP said the configurations have to be virtual identical to the ones listed. is there a weight requirement for this design? so if i wanted to use a different handguard or muzzle brake could it fall outside of the specs? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,570 Posted June 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, nondisclosure said: Many have already done this. NJSP said the configurations have to be virtual identical to the ones listed. Not virtual, similar, ie substantially identical. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nondisclosure 55 Posted June 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, EngineerJet said: is there a weight requirement for this design? so if i wanted to use a different handguard or muzzle brake could it fall outside of the specs? AFAIK, no there is no weight requirement. There is only one weight requirement and that is for pistols. 1 minute ago, PK90 said: Not virtual, similar, ie substantially identical. Yes, correct. So same length barrel (you can pin and weld to achieve greater length or same of shorter barrels) VFG, and a Brace, while maintaining the greater than OAL of 26”. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EngineerJet 191 Posted June 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, nondisclosure said: AFAIK, no there is no weight requirement. There is only one weight requirement and that is for pistols. Yes, correct. So same length barrel (you can pin and weld to achieve greater length or same of shorter barrels) VFG, and a Brace, while maintaining the greater than OAL of 26”. Since it's not a rifle and barrel length won't really matter, is pinning and welding necessary? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nondisclosure 55 Posted June 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, EngineerJet said: Since it's not a rifle and barrel length won't really matter, is pinning and welding necessary? It would if you wanted to go with a a shorter barrel to meet OAL. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites