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Legal Status of Non-NFA Firearm AR Build?

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You know, I’m reading through this thread again and I find it kind of funny.

Everyone wants to build their own SBF. Everyone thinks that Troy and Dark Storm and MM are ripping consumers off...

Yet everyone has all these questions and no one knows what they can and can’t do.

Can I do it like this? 

Is a receiver a rifle or a pistol or something else? 

How long does this part have to be? How about that part?

What’s Identical vs similar?

Can I use a flash hider?

What does the NJSP say? I mean the ATF? I mean both.

And on and on and on.....  6 pages now of questions and bellyaching. 

These companies cracked the code and came up with a product that everyone wants, but no one wants to pay for the work they put in to get these products to market and everyone wants their knowledge for free.

When the company tries to share the guidance they received, the members get shitty and accuse them of being secretive, or wrong, or worse - liars. 

Unreal. What is this Arfcom?

Just now, RUTGERS95 said:

Tjx!  looking now

They pushed almost all of their stock on hand out to dealers. That’s why I didn’t buy one yet.

Call around and see who has what. 

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35 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

You know, I’m reading through this thread again and I find it kind of funny.

Everyone wants to build their own SBF. Everyone thinks that Troy and Dark Storm and MM are ripping consumers off...

Yet everyone has all these questions and no one knows what they can and can’t do.

Can I do it like this? 

Is a receiver a rifle or a pistol or something else? 

How long does this part have to be? How about that part?

What’s Identical vs similar?

Can I use a flash hider?

What does the NJSP say? I mean the ATF? I mean both.

And on and on and on.....  6 pages now of questions and bellyaching. 

These companies cracked the code and came up with a product that everyone wants, but no one wants to pay for the work they put in to get these products to market and everyone wants their knowledge for free.

When the company tries to share the guidance they received, the members get shitty and accuse them of being secretive, or wrong, or worse - liars. 

Unreal. What is this Arfcom?

They pushed almost all of their stock on hand out to dealers. That’s why I didn’t buy one yet.

Call around and see who has what. 

I agree that any company should be able to reap the benefits of their hard work and they don't owe it to anyone to divulge their secrets. Having said that, in this instance the "secrets" are of a legal nature and we shouldn't just accept that a gun is legal but we can't tell you why. Sure the specs are out there now, but given the nature of NJ laws, it's reasonable for the citizens to question if replicating the specs are sufficient to maintain legality and what deviation if any are allowed. As citizens who wish to stay within the law it's only fair to ask.

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3 hours ago, High Exposure said:

I checked out the Modern Materiél SBF on my way home on Friday. It’s awesome! I’m really excited they did this and the fact they they are based in N.J. - to me - is even better.

I checked out the parts list - It’s quality stuff.

You may save some money building your own, but you’d have to use inferior parts and look for sales on shipping. Personally, the juice just isn’t worth the squeeze to build one.

I’m going to buy one from MM ASAP. Then not only do I get the SBF but I also get the support of the company and their warranty, and there is no confusion of how it was built, where it came from, or if I’m outside the parameters of the current rules.

Yea, same boat. I can easily get an AR pistol in ME, and will (Banshee). But I like the idea behind the vertical grip.

Only thing I got to look into if I can pull the muzzle device outside of NJ and have no issues. OAL is measured with stocks/braces extended, so should be good. I want to suppress it, along with everything else I can.

I’ve seen MM for a little bit, and feel the same as you confirmed... they are good to go. Never dealt with them, as my ARs were all built some time back. Speaking to Joe via PM, I’m pretty much sold on one (he reminds me of Rudy from Macon Armory, who is proud of people using his product; like business owners with that type of contact). But I’m very likely going to buy the SBF when I get back up there.

3 hours ago, samtechlan said:

Because they might want the vfg without having to go the sbr route.

 

3 hours ago, PK90 said:

Okay. The ONLY reason. 

Yep, main reason I’m looking. I know I can’t do it on the Banshee, which is why I’m sort of unsure on going with either the 5” or 8” barrel. I want to put something up there on the 5”... since that “forend” is pretty short. Reminds me of a KSG type of situation.

3 hours ago, samtechlan said:

I'm thinking about the Banshee as well and it would be a simple thing for CMMG to build (for the NJ market) some of the 9mm models with a slightly longer barrel (the current ones have an 8" tube)  or a permanently attached longish fh plus the all important vfg to get to the 26" OAL.

The main advantage over the Modern Materiel 9mm firearm would be the radial delayed blowback of the Banshee rather than the straight blowback of the MM.

Blowback will increase weight... just how it is. My D/I .45 AR is light compared to other blowback ARs I’ve handled.

But I doubt you’ll see CMMG make a NJ firearm. Very limited market. MM is NJ based, which is why you see them offering them. The other manufacturers, I doubt they will keep those models offered in the long term.

37 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

You know, I’m reading through this thread again and I find it kind of funny.

Everyone wants to build their own SBF. Everyone thinks that Troy and Dark Storm and MM are ripping consumers off...

Yet everyone has all these questions and no one knows what they can and can’t do.

Can I do it like this? 

Is a receiver a rifle or a pistol or something else? 

How long does this part have to be? How about that part?

What’s Identical vs similar?

Can I use a flash hider?

What does the NJSP say? I mean the ATF? I mean both.

And on and on and on.....  6 pages now of questions and bellyaching. 

These companies cracked the code and came up with a product that everyone wants, but no one wants to pay for the work they put in to get these products to market and everyone wants their knowledge for free.

When the company tries to share the guidance they received, the members get shitty and accuse them of being secretive, or wrong, or worse - liars. 

Unreal. What is this Arfcom?

They pushed almost all of their stock on hand out to dealers. That’s why I didn’t buy one yet.

Call around and see who has what. 

Nature of the internet... sad, but true. Hell, I still get people telling me I can’t buy a pistol out of state on my FFL-03, and that I’m breaking laws.

I do agree, it is a little murky in regards to building your own. Which is why I say to buy one built. Have to be 21 to transfer something as a pistol/receiver, so no matter it being a firearm.

That being said, if you get one in hand to shoot... definitely looking for a little bit of a review. I’m a few months out from looking, but definitely going to hook up with Joe to check it out. There is an FFL up in ME that I could check with, if there is still a backorder.

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These companies didn’t crack the code. This was done privately by an individual over a year ago through guidance of an FFL.

So I have 2 stripped uppers, lowers, lpk’s, bolts and a few triggers, now I am supposed to go buy Their stuff when all I need to buy is a 150-250$ barrel, a gas block and rail. Ok? So why should I go buy a firearm that costs 1300-1500 From some company(companies) no one has ever heard of, and has never had any gov contracts? 

Thank you for having these companies offer this non-NFA firearm for sure, but they didn’t originate the build. If that is the only way to get these magical non-NFA type builds, fantastic! I’ll go buy one as soon as NJSP, says that’s the only way to achieve it, till then I will doubt that it is.

so are these companies on par with Noveske, Daniel Defense, BCM or knights armament? Did anyone do a round count on their builds,  probably not. They literally slapped on an upper with a brace and said here you go. $1400. A whole bcm 11.5” upper is 600. You can then get a lower, lpk and bcm trigger for about 1000$ total. Bcm is a military contractor too. 

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4 minutes ago, nondisclosure said:

These companies didn’t crack the code. This was done privately by an individual over a year ago through guidance of an FFL.

So I have 2 stripped uppers, lpk’s, bolts and a few triggers, now I am supposed to go buy Their stuff when all I need to buy is a 150-250$ barrel, a gas block and rail. Ok? So why should I go buy a firearm that costs 1300-1500 From some company(companies) no one has ever heard of, and has never had any gov contracts? 

Thank you for having these companies offer this non-NFA firearm for sure, but they didn’t originate the build. If that is the only way to get these magical non-NFA type builds, fantastic! I’ll go buy one as soon as NJSP, says that’s the only way to achieve it, till then I will doubt that it is.

so are these companies on par with Noveske, Daniel Defense, BCM or knights armament? Did anyone do a round count on their builds,  probably not. They literally slapped on an upper with a brace and said here you go. $1400. A whole bcm 11.5” upper is 600. You can then get a lower, lpk and bcm trigger for about 1000$ total. Bcm is a military contractor too. 

Modern Material does have Govt contracts in NJ.  I have personally run their guns and have seen their guns come thru LE Rifle Instructor courses and they are GTG.  I wouldn't hesitate to grab their guns.  I also have Noveske, Colt, BCM, Spikes and some home built guns.  I will tell you they use the right parts and quality control is superb.

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Just now, blksheep said:

Modern Material does have Govt contracts in NJ.  I have personally run their guns and have seen their guns come thru LE Rifle Instructor courses and they are GTG.  I wouldn't hesitate to grab their guns.  I also have Noveske, Colt, BCM, Spikes and some home built guns.  I will tell you they use the right parts and quality control is superb.

Agreed Blksheep!

But hey, what do we know? ;) 

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6 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Agreed Blksheep!

But hey, what do we know? ;) 

2 separate subjects.  he's not wrong in a literal sense and what u guys know is irrelevant to the core subject.  wrong approach here...respectfully

 

That said, I'm TOTALLY down for a demo day!!!  want this!!!!

 

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3 minutes ago, blksheep said:

Modern Material does have Govt contracts in NJ.  I have personally run their guns and have seen their guns come thru LE Rifle Instructor courses and they are GTG.  I wouldn't hesitate to grab their guns.  I also have Noveske, Colt, BCM, Spikes and some home built guns.  I will tell you they use the right parts and quality control is superb. 

 

2 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Agreed Blksheep!

But hey, what do we know? ;) 

Ok, Great, this is good to know. I've never seen it brought up here till now. Thanks for the heads up! 

That is good to know in case we arent allowed to build our own. But like I said, I am literally a barrel, gas block and a rail away from having a legal non-NFA firearm myself. So am I wrong to not want to go out and spend the 1000$ extra that it would take to get me there?

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2 hours ago, High Exposure said:

You know, I’m reading through this thread again and I find it kind of funny.

Everyone wants to build their own SBF. Everyone thinks that Troy and Dark Storm and MM are ripping consumers off...

Yet everyone has all these questions and no one knows what they can and can’t do.

Can I do it like this? 

Is a receiver a rifle or a pistol or something else? 

How long does this part have to be? How about that part?

What’s Identical vs similar?

Can I use a flash hider?

What does the NJSP say? I mean the ATF? I mean both.

And on and on and on.....  6 pages now of questions and bellyaching. 

These companies cracked the code and came up with a product that everyone wants, but no one wants to pay for the work they put in to get these products to market and everyone wants their knowledge for free.

When the company tries to share the guidance they received, the members get shitty and accuse them of being secretive, or wrong, or worse - liars. 

Unreal. What is this Arfcom?

They pushed almost all of their stock on hand out to dealers. That’s why I didn’t buy one yet.

Call around and see who has what. 

We "cracked" the code over a year ago...  Or some rando on Reddit did.. you cannot possibly give them credit for this. 

People just don't want to believe it. 

Do I think these firearms are over priced? No. But theyre not what I would build or buy. 

Do I think its wrong of them to tell people they have to buy from them for it to be legal*? Yes.

I think you're leaving out that huge point here... THESE companies have just created all of that nonsense... Not us.

People are still reluctant to believe the truth.. and when given the facts resort to being afraid of what NJ will do to them. 

I don't own a single firearm that is legal because of some letter from the NJSP giving me permission.. they are all legal because they fall within the legal limits of the law. 

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1 minute ago, nondisclosure said:

 

Ok, Great, this is good to know. I've never seen it brought up here till now. Thanks for the heads up! 

That is good to know in case we arent allowed to build our own. But like I said, I am literally a barrel, gas block and a rail away from having a legal non-NFA firearm myself. So am I wrong to not want to go out and spend the 1000$ extra that it would take to get me there?

Wrong question; why do you need their or anyone's approval given you make perfect sense? 

I'll go the mm route if cheaper on a demo day:)

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5 minutes ago, RUTGERS95 said:

Wrong question; why do you need their or anyone's approval given you make perfect sense? 

I'll go the mm route if cheaper on a demo day:)

Because it "appears" to be legal to build as of right now. There are a few emails that went out, that I know of to NJSP specifically asking if they can be personally built. I can wait to build one with approval. Me making sense versus legally building one are two different things.

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18 minutes ago, nondisclosure said:

Because it "appears" to be legal to build as of right now. There are a few emails that went out, that I know of to NJSP specifically asking if they can be personally built. I can wait to build one with approval. Me making sense versus legally building one are two different things.

I just hope that the companies (that are selling these firearms) who sent the NJSP an email framed the question the proper way. Because if NJSP says no, they would greatly benefit. The emails regarding assembling firearms should be framed with the XO-26  ATF letter in mind, where the ATF says yes it’s legal to construct your own. I posted that letter on page two. 

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Anyone who wants to build your own (like I did a year ago), shouldn’t have to justify it either. I already have two buddies that are going to buy MM’s SBF, solely because of me. And trust me, I love building my own ARs and it’s usually the first thing I recommend to anyone getting into ARs.

It doesn’t have to be an issue of support, but rather just preference. MM’s quality is on point, I see them all the time at Reloaderz (work there). But I love building my own ARs exactly how I want them. It’s preference, and there’s no shame in going either way. 

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30 minutes ago, RUTGERS95 said:

2 separate subjects.  he's not wrong in a literal sense and what u guys know is irrelevant to the core subject.  wrong approach here...respectfully

Fair enough - You are right. That is a different conversation - but it was a point brought up by someone else, not me or Blksheep.

But my post wasn’t just for MM’s benefit, but for Troy’s and DS’s as well. DS threw some good knowledge out there about these SBFs and people just dismissed it out of hand.

And this isn’t just an observation related to this particular thread, but a trend I have picked up on lately across our whole board.

And they may have not cracked the ATF code on this, but they each - Troy, DS and MM - played a part in spearheading the push here in NJ. They asked the questions. They got the answers. They built the firearms and offered them for sale.

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44 minutes ago, nondisclosure said:

Because it "appears" to be legal to build as of right now. There are a few emails that went out, that I know of to NJSP specifically asking if they can be personally built. I can wait to build one with approval. Me making sense versus legally building one are two different things.

No appears....no law against...period

Emailing njsp, whi by the way is not the best source for accurate firearms interpretations from what we've seen, is beyond absurd imho.   no law against it anywhere so why open that can?

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1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

Fair enough - You are right. That is a different conversation - but it was a point brought up by someone else, not me or Blksheep.

But my post wasn’t just for MM’s benefit, but for Troy’s and DS’s as well. DS threw some good knowledge out there about these SBFs and people just dismissed it out of hand.

And this isn’t just an observation related to this particular thread, but a trend I have picked up on lately across our whole board.

And they may have not cracked the ATF code on this, but they each - Troy, DS and MM - played a part in spearheading the push here in NJ. They asked the questions. They got the answers. They built the firearms and offered them for sale.

Im not so sure they "spearheaded" anything... 

Are they the first to offer a firearm for sale? yes. but the ATF letters have been around for a while now.... They are capitalizing on the situation( i got no problem with that),

However it would be important to recognize that literally everything THIS VERY thread pointed out over a year ago was simply confirmed by NJSP... was their "permission" really needed... NO IMO. While people were scared of laws that didn't exist... plenty of people built their own after the information was made public. In fact, this was so black and white that the NJSP simply cited the law word for word. Now its the bickering over if you can build one.... look i didnt need permission to build my rifles from the state police.. so i didn't look for their permission to build a firearm.. the only place i look is the law. 

What they have done is given the average person confidence they can own one of these... and maybe to a fault. 

Personally, people are scared of their own shadows around here.... and now that the cat is out of the bag... i wont be too happy in a few years when the state shuts all of this down.

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