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Legal Status of Non-NFA Firearm AR Build?

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And make sure that the lower you were using was bought as a “firearm” and had never been built into a pistol or rifle previously.

Has anyone tried building a Black Aces shotgun or a Tac-14 or Shockwave themselves? They have the same restrictions on the status of the receiver being pristine prior to being built.

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3 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Has anyone tried building a Black Aces shotgun or a Tac-14 or Shockwave themselves? They have the same restrictions on the status of the receiver being pristine prior to being built.

Too complicated for me. I have the BAT 14", but am getting the new 10" mini.

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3 hours ago, EngineerJet said:

So if someone wanted to build one themselves. All they need to do is make sure of overall length, the brace, and pin/weld brake if the barrel by itself brings OAL under 26"?

we should put a parts list together on here

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Obligatory not a lawyer disclaimer. (But I can read, and will quote/paraphrase)

Based on the letter from the office of the attorney general. Here are the key take aways for understanding these "firearms"

The law defines:

rifle - "...any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder..."

handgun - "...any pistol, revolver or other firearm originally designed or manufactured  to be fired by the use of a single hand."

shotgun - i dont put the definition here since its not really relevant.

Now, the assault firearm is a list of banned firearms or any RIFLE + atleast 2 evil features, HANDGUN + atleast 2 evil features, or SHOTGUN + 2 evil features.

Here is where the SBF comes into play. They are designed to be fired by two hands (thus pistol brace), BUT are not designed to be shouldered. Since it is not classified as a rifle or handgun, by default they CANNOT be considered assault firearms. 

Based on that, it seems that as long as we build our own SBF build with a pistol brace, none of the evil features  should apply. Meaning bayonet lugs, and flash hiders would technically be ok. (not that its that important anyway).

Here is the area that I am not 100% on, but logically makes sense. I scanned through the NJ firearms laws and there is no mention of minimum overall length except for shotguns.

In addition, federal law states an SBR is "a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length". Since the ATF has stated that the pistol brace is not designed to be shouldered and thus does not convert a pistol into an SBR.

To me, this means there is no minimum overall length requirement at the state or federal level for these SBF's. As well as any of the banned features such as threaded barrels (no need to pin/weld muzzle device).

Now I am NOT saying go out and build your own with all these features since I'm no lawyer. What I am saying is, this is what the law reads like to me.

 

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3 minutes ago, EngineerJet said:

Obligatory not a lawyer disclaimer. (But I can read, and will quote/paraphrase)

Based on the letter from the office of the attorney general. Here are the key take aways for understanding these "firearms"

The law defines:

rifle - "...any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder..."

handgun - "...any pistol, revolver or other firearm originally designed or manufactured  to be fired by the use of a single hand."

shotgun - i dont put the definition here since its not really relevant.

Now, the assault firearm is a list of banned firearms or any RIFLE + atleast 2 evil features, HANDGUN + atleast 2 evil features, or SHOTGUN + 2 evil features.

Here is where the SBF comes into play. They are designed to be fired by two hands (thus pistol brace), BUT are not designed to be shouldered. Since it is not classified as a rifle or handgun, by default they CANNOT be considered assault firearms. 

Based on that, it seems that as long as we build our own SBF build with a pistol brace, none of the evil features  should apply. Meaning bayonet lugs, and flash hiders would technically be ok. (not that its that important anyway).

Here is the area that I am not 100% on, but logically makes sense. I scanned through the NJ firearms laws and there is no mention of minimum overall length except for shotguns.

In addition, federal law states an SBR is "a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length". Since the ATF has stated that the pistol brace is not designed to be shouldered and thus does not convert a pistol into an SBR.

To me, this means there is no minimum overall length requirement at the state or federal level for these SBF's. As well as any of the banned features such as threaded barrels (no need to pin/weld muzzle device).

Now I am NOT saying go out and build your own with all these features since I'm no lawyer. What I am saying is, this is what the law reads like to me.

 

Any firearm under 26" is an AOW and requires a tax stamp. Good luck with that in NJ. 

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Just now, PK90 said:

The NJ AWB does not apply. You are correct. And there is no 26" requirement in NJ, but there is Federally.

Yes, but the requirements are are on rifles and pistols. Since ATF already stated adding a brace to a pistol does not make it a rifle. It seems like that minimum length does not apply. I could be wrong but thats how I read it so far. As for minimum length on a pistol i found this.

An AR-15 pistol with an overall length of 26" or longer may have a vertical foregrip installed, as long as no buttstock is installed in conjunction with a shorter than 16" barrel.

This means AR pistol under 26 inches cannot have a vertical grip. Maybe its possible NJ doesnt consider it a pistol, but the ATF still might?

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16 minutes ago, EngineerJet said:

AR pistols are under 26 and dont require tax stamp.

You can’t put a vertical grip on an AR pistol  under 26”. That makes it an AOW.

If you take the front vertical grip off, this “Firearm” becomes a pistol under the federal laws. Once it’s defined as a pistol, it violates NJ’s Assault Weapon prohibitions.

If you replace the brace with a stock, it becomes a Rifle under the federal law (SBR technically) and that requires a tax stamp federally and it also violates NJ’s restrictions on Short Barreled Shotguns (NJ’s term for any short Barreled long gun)  and most likely the evil features list making it an Assault Weapon in N.J. as well.

There are lots of technicalities when you go down this rabbit hole. 

There it is again - the qualifying statement - “I could be wrong but that’s how I read it so far.” 

You better hope you are right.

Build at your own risk.

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3 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

You can’t put a vertical grip on an AR pistol  under 26”. That makes it an AOW.

If you take the front vertical grip off, this “Firearm” becomes a pistol under the federal laws. Once it’s defined as a pistol, it violates NJ’s Assault Weapon prohibitions.

If you replace the brace with a stock, it becomes a Rifle under the federal law (SBR technically) and that requires a tax stamp federally and it also violates NJ’s restrictions on Short Barreled Shotguns (NJ’s term for any short Barreled long gun)  and most likely the evil features list making it an Assault Weapon in N.J. as well.

There are lots of technicalities when you go down this rabbit hole. 

There it is again - the qualifying statement - “I could be wrong but that’s how I read it so far.” 

You better hope you are right.

Build at your own risk.

As I said, Im not gonna go build whatever I want. This is just discussion on what is and is not allowed based on the wording of NJ and Federal laws. If there is someone who has contradictory information that is legit, its 100% welcome.

I'm still learning more as I go and I just realized the 26 minimum OAL is probably being met by the SBF and similar firearms because its designed to be fired by two hands.

I noticed the Troy and DS firearms both have vertical foregrips. I'm wondering if they didnt wanna play with the verbage of angled foregrip/grip stop vs vertical grip?

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5 minutes ago, PK90 said:

The NFA Law describes why you can't be below 26". NJ Law mentions making a Sawed-Off Shotgun from a rifle or shotgun, which this is neither.

You can be below 26 for pistols as long as you dont add a vertical grip. If you have more up to date information then I'm all for it.

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7 minutes ago, EngineerJet said:

You can be below 26 for pistols as long as you dont add a vertical grip. If you have more up to date information then I'm all for it.

Not in NJ.

Not sure what your issue is.

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11 minutes ago, EngineerJet said:

You can be below 26 for pistols as long as you dont add a vertical grip. If you have more up to date information then I'm all for it.

Your pistol would be in violation of the NJ AWB for pistols simply by having more than 1 "evil feature": over 50oz, magazine outside the pistol grip, barrel shroud, threaded barrel, etc.

I also saw a mention for length of pull in one of the letters, but I'm not sure if there is a federal law and/or interpretation from the ATF concerning it. 

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1 minute ago, PK90 said:

Not in NJ.

Not sure what your issue is.

No issues, Just looking at the laws. The below 26 for pistols as long as you dont add a vertical grip is federal, yes. NJ law makes no mention of minimum length except for shotguns. These weapons are not classified as a rifle, pistol or shotgun according to NJ and thus cannot be classified as assault firearms. Why am I the one with the issue for stating what I've read and opening the floor corrections?

 

21 minutes ago, PK90 said:

The NFA Law describes why you can't be below 26". NJ Law mentions making a Sawed-Off Shotgun from a rifle or shotgun, which this is neither.

I did not dispute the conditions for why you cant be below 26". I just added the addendum that you can be under 26 if no vertical grip (should have clarified federally). But since at the state level they dont qualify as pistol or rifle. At the state level there is no minimum requirements for these firearms. We're all here to learn. No need for hostility.

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6 minutes ago, ChrisJM981 said:

Your pistol would be in violation of the NJ AWB for pistols simply by having more than 1 "evil feature": over 50oz, magazine outside the pistol grip, barrel shroud, threaded barrel, etc.

I also saw a mention for length of pull in one of the letters, but I'm not sure if there is a federal law and/or interpretation from the ATF concerning it. 

Agreed. But this all hinders first on the basic classification pistol before these additional conditions have to be met. For this thread I assume we are refering to these SBF and similar firearms. Since these firearms dont fit into the traditional pistol or rifle or shotgun, these features don't apply to them, right?

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10 minutes ago, EngineerJet said:

Agreed. But this all hinders first on the basic classification pistol before these additional conditions have to be met. For this thread I assume we are refering to these SBF and similar firearms. Since these firearms dont fit into the traditional pistol or rifle or shotgun, these features don't apply to them, right?

If you change something in the SBFs description as it is currently defined and legal ie: overall length, removal the vert grip, add a stock, etc... you may be changing the classification of “Firearm” to something else.

For some definitions of the classes you can change between classes on the same receiver/serial number, for others, once you change the classification once, you can’t go back. This applies to Rifles, Shotguns Pistols, SBR/SBS, AOWs, and Firearms. 

Just like you can’t build your Rem 870 Shotgun you have lying in the safe into a Tac-14 “Firearm” or if you put a stock on the Tac/14 you bought as a “firearm”, you can’t technically bring it back to “firearm” status legally.

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Jesus we are not doing this again. 

Nj requirement: 

It cannot be a pistol, you wont meet the weight requirement

Must fall under the definition of Firearm.

Federal requirement (NFA):

It must start life as anything other than a long gun rifle/shotgun. 

It needs a pistol brace(get one with ATF approval)

It must have a FVG, so its not a pistol.(MUST BE VERTICAL, the Magpul angled grips DO NOT COUNT)

It must have OAL >26" so not to be AOW.

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4 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

If you change something in the SBFs description as it is currently defined and legal ie: overall length, removal the vert grip, add a stock, etc... you are changing the classification of “Firearm” to something else.

For some definitions of the classes you can change between classes on the same receiver/serial number, for others, once you change the classification once, you can’t go back.

Just like you can’t build your Rem 870 Shotgun you have lying in the safe into a Tac-14 “Firearm” or if you put a stock on the Tac/14 you bought as a “firearm”, you can’t technically can not bring it back to “firearm” status legally.

I guess therein lies the question of, what list of descriptions made this firearm good to go? To me it looks like the fact that it had a brace put it into a configuration that didnt fit into a prohibited category. So on paper, it looks like flash hiders and threaded barrels etc would be allowed on an SBF.

With respect to the OAL, I'm not everyone to go out and build 22 inch SBF. But its fair to ask what are our limits. Will any brace do? Different brands of vertical grips? Is barrel length relevant as long as 26 is met? etc.

We know on the federal level, 26 is the minimum for rifles and pistols with a vertical grip.

I've looked over N.J.S.2C:39 and it appears at the state level there is no OAL minimum requirement for pistols and rifles and only shotguns.

So its possible the manufacturers kept the 26 minimum to cover their bases just in case ATF classifies it as a pistol? Has ATF chimed in so far to what these SBF are classified as?

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33 minutes ago, ChrisJM981 said:

Your pistol would be in violation of the NJ AWB for pistols simply by having more than 1 "evil feature": over 50oz, magazine outside the pistol grip, barrel shroud, threaded barrel, etc.

I also saw a mention for length of pull in one of the letters, but I'm not sure if there is a federal law and/or interpretation from the ATF concerning it. 

Length of pull seems to be another thing the ATF is using to classify these braces as "pistol". 

I believe(but could be wrong) the pistol braces have a shorter length of pull as a rifle stock... that is when measured fully opened per the ATF. 

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Oh my freaking gawd. The lack of reading comprehension in this thread is astonishing, even for this place. Let me try to simplify before PK90 has a stroke. 

 

Federal law defines a pistol as being designed to be fired by one hand, with a maximum overall length of 26 inches. Therefore, legally speaking, any gun over 26" cannot be a pistol. It is a rifle, shotgun, or firearm. 

I know a lot of people run around calling their 12" barreled  AR's pistols, but those people are wrong, and should be corrected.

The presence of a vertical grip, or lack of, has absolutely zero to do with pistol or firearm designation. A pistol with a vertical grip is an AOW (edited for cupcake) . Over 26" is not a pistol, so that rule doesn't apply. 

Anyone who still doesn't get it, you're hopeless. Just be quiet before you kill PK90. 

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6 minutes ago, EngineerJet said:

I guess therein lies the question of, what list of descriptions made this firearm good to go? To me it looks like the fact that it had a brace put it into a configuration that didnt fit into a prohibited category. So on paper, it looks like flash hiders and threaded barrels etc would be allowed on an SBF.

With respect to the OAL, I'm not everyone to go out and build 22 inch SBF. But its fair to ask what are our limits. Will any brace do? Different brands of vertical grips? Is barrel length relevant as long as 26 is met? etc.

We know on the federal level, 26 is the minimum for rifles and pistols with a vertical grip.

I've looked over N.J.S.2C:39 and it appears at the state level there is no OAL minimum requirement for pistols and rifles and only shotguns.

So its possible the manufacturers kept the 26 minimum to cover their bases just in case ATF classifies it as a pistol? Has ATF chimed in so far to what these SBF are classified as?

At the federal level, there is no such thing as a pistol with a vertical grip... 

IF YOU PUT A VERTICAL GRIP ON A PISTOL IT BECOMES AOW IF ITS UNDER 26" OAL. 

4 minutes ago, Hairless_Ape said:

Oh my freaking gawd. The lack of reading comprehension in this thread is astonishing, even for this place. Let me try to simplify before PK90 has a stroke. 

 

The presence of a vertical grip, or lack of, has absolutely zero to do with pistol or firearm designation. A pistol with a vertical grip is still a pistol, it just becomes an NFA item. Over 26" is not a pistol, so that rule doesn't apply. 

Anyone who still doesn't get it, you're hopeless. Just be quiet before you kill PK90. 

Thats completely incorrect, and the ATF has clarified this.... A pistol with a vertical grip is NOT A PISTOL, it's AOW if its under 26", and becomes classified as firearm if its over 26"

 

So i'm like done with all of this now.. Its been explained 3x over by now. 

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2 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

At the federal level, there is no such thing as a pistol with a vertical grip... 

IF YOU PUT A VERTICAL GRIP ON A PISTOL IT BECOMES AOW IF ITS UNDER 26" OAL. 

Thats completely incorrect, and the ATF has clarified this.... A pistol with a vertical grip is NOT A PISTOL, it's AOW.

Cookie for you, AOW, NFA item, same shit different name. You got the point though cupcake, yeah? 

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4 minutes ago, Hairless_Ape said:

Cookie for you, AOW, NFA item, same shit different name. You got the point though cupcake, yeah? 

NO. Calling something "a pistol" with a VFG is not exactly steering this conversation in the right directing. 

If we considered it to be a pistol, it would be 100% illegal in NJ.. it is not. In fact, the VFG is the entire reason it's legal in NJ.... So we have to play the 26" game now to avoid making AOW's at the federal level. 

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