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Legal Status of Non-NFA Firearm AR Build?

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8 hours ago, Golf battery said:

If you build it.  Its logged as a lower receiver.   So ffl logs wont matter. 

Bingo. All the more reason to build yourself. No way to track what receivers are built into a rifle vs firearm without going door to door

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can we attach a Law Tactical folder to one of these since it’s not subject to assault weapon guidelines?

yes, last year in Connecticut the ATF was measuring Scorpion Pistols with the brace folded, however the Scorpion is designed to shoot with the stock/brace folded. 

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Just now, Rufio.Weaponworks said:

can we attach a Law Tactical folder to one of these since it’s not subject to assault weapon guidelines?

yes, last year in Connecticut the ATF was measuring Scorpion Pistols with the brace folded, however the Scorpion is designed to shoot with the stock/brace folded. 

Law folder will still allow one round to be fired folded. I believe there was another thread, that stated NJSP said no go because it’s capable to fire while folded unlike the sub2k etc. 

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32 minutes ago, Rufio.Weaponworks said:

can we attach a Law Tactical folder to one of these since it’s not subject to assault weapon guidelines?

yes, last year in Connecticut the ATF was measuring Scorpion Pistols with the brace folded, however the Scorpion is designed to shoot with the stock/brace folded. 

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16 minutes ago, shooter28 said:

you can but you'll need to increase the barrel lenghth to compensate. If it has a folding brace, the ATF measures OAL from the hinge.

Huh? Everything I've read from ATF is that the measurement is taken extended. Got something different in writing?

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So hypothetically here. 

Purchase one from MM. State comes down with ban hammer. Now what happens?

does MM get forced to disclose where they all went?

Once that happens will they send LEOs to round them up?

I just really don’t want to open a can of worms especially paying retail close to (1,400) for one. Obviously the weapon would be out of state once banned, but I really don’t want to deal with a search looking for it still. 

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24 minutes ago, PK90 said:

Huh? Everything I've read from ATF is that the measurement is taken extended. Got something different in writing?

Correct. I deleted my post comment.

I was reading about a case in CT where the ATF raided a FFL because that field office decided to measure from the hinge and the weapons were falling under the 26" OAL. Turns out, the shop was converting "pistols" to "firearms" by adding a VFG but in the process was creating AOW and circumventing the NFA rules. Or at least that was the jist I got. 

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15 minutes ago, 0Jeep4 said:

So hypothetically here. 

Purchase one from MM. State comes down with ban hammer. Now what happens?

does MM get forced to disclose where they all went?

Once that happens will they send LEOs to round them up?

I just really don’t want to open a can of worms especially paying retail close to (1,400) for one. Obviously the weapon would be out of state once banned, but I really don’t want to deal with a search looking for it still. 

My best guess. They cant just get the records without a warrant. Which would mean they would have to go to a judge and explain that they want a warrant to get the names of people who purchased a legal firearm. And now that the law was changed after the fact, they want to go round them up. By that same logic, they could have done the same with the magazine ban. But they didnt.

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2 hours ago, shooter28 said:

Correct. I deleted my post comment.

I was reading about a case in CT where the ATF raided a FFL because that field office decided to measure from the hinge and the weapons were falling under the 26" OAL. Turns out, the shop was converting "pistols" to "firearms" by adding a VFG but in the process was creating AOW and circumventing the NFA rules. Or at least that was the jist I got. 

I didnt hear what ever came of that... I believe word on the street is some CT cops and an ATF agent got together and went rouge... To clarify, you can turn a pistol into a firearm, but the ATF in this case was measuring with the folding stock closed(folded). I would steer very clear from folding type braces. 

but here is another  story. 

https://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/108864-atf-prosecution-for-pistol-as-sbr/page/2/

 

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Lets have some fun with this. I know a FFL07, would there be anything against asking them to put together a scorpion evo 3 for me? 

Buy the https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-pistol-w-flash-can/

Get the adapter https://www.preppergunshop.com/pgs-mfg-scorpion-evo-accessory-pgs-mfg-scorpion-evo-m4-adapter-aluminum

Slap on an approved VFG and Pistol Brace.

BAM! firearm!

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4 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

Lets have some fun with this. I know a FFL07, would there be anything against asking them to put together a scorpion evo 3 for me? 

Buy the https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-pistol-w-flash-can/

Get the adapter https://www.preppergunshop.com/pgs-mfg-scorpion-evo-accessory-pgs-mfg-scorpion-evo-m4-adapter-aluminum

Slap on an approved VFG and Pistol Brace.

BAM! firearm!

The only caveat would be that the FFL07 would need to add a metal plate somewhere on the firearm with their info as they would be reclassifying it.

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7 hours ago, 0Jeep4 said:

Law folder will still allow one round to be fired folded. I believe there was another thread, that stated NJSP said no go because it’s capable to fire while folded unlike the sub2k etc. 

Correct but these non NFA guns aren’t subject to assault weapon laws. 

 

The connecticut case is a with a CZ Scorpion which does shoot and cycle with the brace folded, which is why they measure from the hinge

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State Police cannot set the "law" unless this is incorporated into an administrative regulation or statute. However, it would be stupid to "stir the pot" as we know what would come next. This is really guidance, but very important guidance. But it does beg the question if you assemble one, and what you assemble does not vary from the "mold". No harm, no foul? Of course, dealers would be well advised to follow this guidance.

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I agree with your thinking. I’m not naive enough to think that my own logic keeps me safe from the state’s interpretation.

I’ve been reaching out to a couple FFLs I use to see if they’d be okay with assembling this configuration before I take possession, using the parts I want. I don’t think this would be any different than buying a “firearm” from sons of liberty gun works. Any thoughts on this approach guys? 

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8 minutes ago, Sparda81 said:

hm I didn’t even think of that. I was thinking of just having the whole thing built out with parts I ship to the FFL and then take possession of the finished build afterward. Interesting

If a dealer did that the dealer would be responsible for collecting the Federal Excise Tax that is required on complete firearms and as PK90 is alluding to, manufacturing license. There is no FET on gun parts, that's why it's cheaper to build an AR than buy a complete one. Many dealers are reluctant to sell you all the parts to assemble a complete firearm, even if you assembled it yourself.

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3 hours ago, Sparda81 said:

I haven't seen this in the thread so I thought I'd post this. Yea, I'm not paying $1300 for a pre-built. I respect the hustle but no. I'd rather have the parts ship to FFL and have them assemble and release to me complete. Thoughts?

 

 

Then I would not risk it.

What you are paying the premium for, IS the letter.

I had a chance to play with the Troy gun this weekend thanks to @tachopsinternational and really like that it actually says "other firearm" right on the gun.

Between the gun and the letter, I feel 100% comfortable taking it to NJ and shooting there, for the Troy and Dark Storm which is listed there.  Second best is the MM one... 

come down to NJ with a home built one? HELL NO!

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1 minute ago, Maksim said:

Then I would not risk it.

What you are paying the premium for, IS the letter.

I had a chance to play with the Troy gun this weekend thanks to @tachopsinternational and really like that it actually says "other firearm" right on the gun.

Between the gun and the letter, I feel 100% comfortable taking it to NJ and shooting there, for the Troy and Dark Storm which is listed there.  Second best is the MM one... 

come down to NJ with a home built one? HELL NO!

I totally get it. I just can’t bring myself to do it. I’d rather buy a DD complete upper for that amount.

 Again, not knocking the MM hustle. I demoed a few of their rifles at Costa class and they’re great guys with a good product.

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1 minute ago, Sparda81 said:

I totally get it. I just can’t bring myself to do it. I’d rather buy a DD complete upper for that amount.

 Again, not knocking the MM hustle. I demoed a few of their rifles at Costa class and they’re great guys with a good product.

So I have not played with Joe's rifles... Waiting for @Modern Materiel to get me and @Rufio.Weaponworks one to demo for videos and magazines.  But I have now put a few hundred rounds through my Troy A4 and should have a Dark Storm Variant this week.

Realistically... what is peace of mind cost you?

Do you go to a range or build your own range in back yard?

As far as I know, there was a letter from NJSP saying that they only approve of the ones currently sold as such, that started out as an "Other firearm."  

When you think of the worst case... 

If you build your own... you are 100% responsible.

IF you bought one... you have the manufacturer, the NJ State Police, the Distributors and retail FFL who all are in the same camp and said it was okay.

So is saving a day's worth of ammo worth it?

And besides.. when it comes time to resell OR when gun control starts clamping down towards election, that $1300 gun may be $2,000... 

Were you a gun owner after Sandy Hook when a POS DPMS that was $500 was now selling for $1,500?  And people were lining out the door for it.

Beyond that, you are getting good components on the guns, they are not cheap builds.  On the Troy, I like the fact that it comes with Troy battle sights and I LOVE the new thin rail.  @Modern Materiel uses good components too and @Dark Storm is essentially ALL US Made and was OEM for quite a few other gun companies.

At this point I estimate there are about 2,000 or so of these rifles that are sold through dealers or in their inventories, based on discussions with the folks who produce them.  No one is going door to door at this point.  I can totally see it closed in the future though... but then you would either STFU OR send it to America.

None of the three guns being sold are cheap $600 ARs and if you have ANYTHING to lose, I would urge not to build your own... even IF you could.... too much risk.

I would rather drive around with the gun and the NJSP letter. lol. 

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3 minutes ago, Maksim said:

So I have not played with Joe's rifles... Waiting for @Modern Materiel to get me and @Rufio.Weaponworks one to demo for videos and magazines.  But I have now put a few hundred rounds through my Troy A4 and should have a Dark Storm Variant this week.

Realistically... what is peace of mind cost you?

Do you go to a range or build your own range in back yard?

As far as I know, there was a letter from NJSP saying that they only approve of the ones currently sold as such, that started out as an "Other firearm."  

When you think of the worst case... 

If you build your own... you are 100% responsible.

IF you bought one... you have the manufacturer, the NJ State Police, the Distributors and retail FFL who all are in the same camp and said it was okay.

So is saving a day's worth of ammo worth it?

And besides.. when it comes time to resell OR when gun control starts clamping down towards election, that $1300 gun may be $2,000... 

Were you a gun owner after Sandy Hook when a POS DPMS that was $500 was now selling for $1,500?  And people were lining out the door for it.

Beyond that, you are getting good components on the guns, they are not cheap builds.  On the Troy, I like the fact that it comes with Troy battle sights and I LOVE the new thin rail.  @Modern Materiel uses good components too and @Dark Storm is essentially ALL US Made and was OEM for quite a few other gun companies.

At this point I estimate there are about 2,000 or so of these rifles that are sold through dealers or in their inventories, based on discussions with the folks who produce them.  No one is going door to door at this point.  I can totally see it closed in the future though... but then you would either STFU OR send it to America.

None of the three guns being sold are cheap $600 ARs and if you have ANYTHING to lose, I would urge not to build your own... even IF you could.... too much risk.

I would rather drive around with the gun and the NJSP letter. lol. 

Your points aren’t falling on deaf ears

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I’m in the process of building mine. The brace came today. I pick up the lower tomorrow. Upper receiver will be build by Andro Corp. The NJSP provided a letter that outlines what characteristics make his type of firearm legal. Follow it and you’ll be fine. In one of these threads, the guy recorded a conversation with NJSP and they said it was fine to build your own, just be carefully not to create an SBR. 

Not sure I fully understand the line of thinking that the letter only applies to that specific firearm and nothing else. AFAIK, you don’t need NJSP approval to sell NJ compliant firearms. Does every single AR manufacturer and home builder get approval letter for their version of an AR15 or do they just follow the law? I don’t understand why this would be any different. 

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