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Legal Status of Non-NFA Firearm AR Build?

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9 hours ago, skibum2 said:

I can't justify spending over $1K on a new firearm right now.  Is this PSA 11.5" good to go with a VFG?  

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-11-5-5-56-nato-1-7-nitride-10-5-lightweight-m-lok-moe-ept-sba3-pistol-kit.html

It appears that it is and if so I'll pull the trigger.

You will either need to pin the flash hider or use a longer buffer tube (A5 for example) to meet the 26" length requirement. Since the ATF redefined how they measure overall length, a 11.5" barrel is just a bit too short to meet the requirement. 

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33 minutes ago, shooter28 said:

You will either need to pin the flash hider or use a longer buffer tube (A5 for example) to meet the 26" length requirement. Since the ATF redefined how they measure overall length, a 11.5" barrel is just a bit too short to meet the requirement. 

You’ll have to spend another $40 on a KAK super sig buffer tube to get you over 26”. Also, make sure you install the VFG onto the handguard before anything else. Stupid, I know.

Actually wait, I think 11.5 is GTG without the KAK. It’s only 10.5 that needs the KAK. I could be wrong. Does anyone have an 11.5 without muzzle device measured from tube end to end of threads? Now I’m curious lol

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1 hour ago, Sparda81 said:

You’ll have to spend another $40 on a KAK super sig buffer tube to get you over 26”. Also, make sure you install the VFG onto the handguard before anything else. Stupid, I know.

Actually wait, I think 11.5 is GTG without the KAK. It’s only 10.5 that needs the KAK. I could be wrong. Does anyone have an 11.5 without muzzle device measured from tube end to end of threads? Now I’m curious lol

With a 10.5 and your'e right in in the middle of 24-25" from buffer tube to end of threads. I can have a more exact measurement later.

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3 hours ago, EngineerJet said:

With a 10.5 and your'e right in in the middle of 24-25" from buffer tube to end of threads. I can have a more exact measurement later.

It's too close to tell without a precise measurement. I'm not sure if it will cycle properly, but the work around I came up with was to remove the buffer detent and walk back the buffer tube to get over 26". I used a PWS ratchet lock castle nut end plate set so I was able to make the adjustment. I know some competition shooters take out the detent, so it should be fine. You might need to buy a longer spring and trim it to fit though. 

Personally I'm going to order an A5 and call it a day once I have more discretionary gun funds. 

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I came up with the following minimum AR-15 barrel lengths to reach the required 26" OAL using different receiver extensions (buffer tubes). Each brace/stock was taken off and the measurements were made from the end of the receiver extension to the end of the muzzle without a device installed. Of course, different manufacturers of barrels and extensions would vary slightly. 

9.9" for the KAK long pistol extension

11.6" for the Gearhead Tailhook extension

11.8" for the standard CAR extension

11.8" for the standard Pistol extension

11.8" for the KAK Shockwave extension

12.0" for the CMMG Ripstock extension

I did not have an A5 extension to measure. Also, if building an AR-10 type firearm, you can deduct about 0.6" from the barrel measurements.

 

 

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Interesting post above regarding measurements.

At this point, I can't really see why a non-NFA is such a big deal 11.75 with a brake or FH not pinned or welded  v an AR-15  with no verticle grip at 14 with a welded brake for a total of 16. Aren't we talking a possible reduction of 2.25 in barrel length plus the welding and pinning?  True you have the brace v pinned adjustable stock (usually) or to put it a different way, a different look. I am not saying that buying or building one is a waste, but is it really a gain, after all it ain't an AR short barreled pistol.

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Took some measurements.

For a 10.5 barrel with standard buffer tube that brings the OAL to 24.425" from end of the tube to barrel threads. So you'd need a longer muzzle device to bring you over 26" OAL.

For a 11.5 barrel with standard buffer tube that would give 25.425" so you'd be able to choose pretty much any muzzle device and still meet 26" OAL after pinning/welding.

 

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2 hours ago, SJG said:

Interesting post above regarding measurements.

At this point, I can't really see why a non-NFA is such a big deal 11.75 with a brake or FH not pinned or welded  v an AR-15  with no verticle grip at 14 with a welded brake for a total of 16. Aren't we talking a possible reduction of 2.25 in barrel length plus the welding and pinning?  True you have the brace v pinned adjustable stock (usually) or to put it a different way, a different look. I am not saying that buying or building one is a waste, but is it really a gain, after all it ain't an AR short barreled pistol.

It's much more than that.  

It's about the total OAL of the package.

With your 14.5" + comp you are still going to have a fixed stock, no threaded barrel.

With an "other firearm" you have the flexibility to have a folding and/or telescoping "stock" and have the ability to put on any muzzle device that you want, AND when you visit friends/family in PA or elsewhere, you can easily throw on a suppressor.  You have a place in FL, right?  Get a suppressor.

Most of all, the entire package is significantly shorter.

With a 12.5" barrel, you can still shoot it comfortably at 300 yards without giving up anything.

2 hours ago, PK90 said:

This begs the question, can an AR rifle have an adjustable brace?

Heh?

You are an FFL and a stickler for being precises.... WTF are you talking about?

Do you mean can an other firearm be a 16" + barrel, etc?

Yes... as long as over 26 OAL requirement.

But can a regular rifle have a brace?  No... because a "Brace" is not designed to be fired from the shoulder. 

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1 hour ago, EngineerJet said:

By definition if it has a brace its not a rifle as a rifle is designed to be shouldered and a brace is not.

This seems correct. But what if the manufacturer makes a standard AR-15 advertises it as a rifle  with a non adjustable brace, and says the brace on this rifle is designed to be shouldered. Isn't the brace under these circumstances really a stock?

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5 minutes ago, SJG said:

This seems correct. But what if the manufacturer makes a standard AR-15 advertises it as a rifle  with a non adjustable brace, and says the brace on this rifle is designed to be shouldered. Isn't the brace under these circumstances really a stock?

Heh?  Who?

Generally, every brace out there has a letter or from original manufacturer that it is a "Brace"

Pretty much every manufacturer I have worked with with ar "pistols" explicitly will not permit their reps to be pictured shoulder firing their braced pistols.  Quite a few even suggested to not shoulder their pistols in videos.

And most pistols out there, will have a brace from SB tactical or another mfr.

 

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5 minutes ago, Maksim said:

It's much more than that.  

It's about the total OAL of the package.

With your 14.5" + comp you are still going to have a fixed stock, no threaded barrel.-----You do have a threaded barrel, and a welded brake on it.

With an "other firearm" you have the flexibility to have a folding and/or telescoping "stock" and have the ability to put on any muzzle device that you want, AND when you visit friends/family in PA or elsewhere, you can easily throw on a suppressor. --True but if suppressors are ok in States outside NJ, I can put one on an AR pistol or a rifle

You have a place in FL, right?  Get a suppressor.

Most of all, the entire package is significantly shorter.--By what? 2.2 " that is not alot.

With a 12.5" barrel, you can still shoot it comfortably at 300 yards without giving up anything.

Heh?

You are an FFL and a stickler for being precises.... WTF are you talking about?

Do you mean can an other firearm be a 16" + barrel, etc?

Yes... as long as over 26 OAL requirement.

But can a regular rifle have a brace?  No... because a "Brace" is not designed to be fired from the shoulder. 

 

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Anybody given any thought to the sons of liberty 13.7" barrels? Saw a garandthumb vid on them today and I'm intrigued. Just to stay on topic, I'd throw on a warcomp and SBA4... and vertigal grip of course, and call it a day. I don't think anyone would look twice at it. Just a thought

 

I guess the same could be said (has been said?) of a 12.5

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On 9/16/2019 at 9:24 PM, EngineerJet said:

For a 11.5 barrel with standard buffer tube that would give 25.425" so you'd be able to choose pretty much any muzzle device and still meet 26" OAL after pinning/welding.

 

It's roughly 26" with an 11.5" barrel. Did you measure to the end of the threads?

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8 hours ago, ChrisJM981 said:

It's roughly 26" with an 11.5" barrel. Did you measure to the end of the threads?

Yes that is measured to the end of the threads but there is a caveat, i based that off a 10.5 measurement, which is exactly 24.425. I'm assuming when it comes to barrel length the measurements are on point given the nature of the ATF rules.

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I've seen barrels as much as 0.3" difference that were stated as the same length.

All the measurements that I posted were on a closed bolt and installed extensions. An 11.8" barrel would give you the 26" OAL, but to be safe, a 12" barrel is suggested. I see why the manufacturers use the 12.5".

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1 hour ago, PK90 said:

I've seen barrels as much as 0.3" difference that were stated as the same length.

All the measurements that I posted were on a closed bolt and installed extensions. An 11.8" barrel would give you the 26" OAL, but to be safe, a 12" barrel is suggested. I see why the manufacturers use the 12.5".

I didn't consider that my 11.5" barrel might not be 11.5". I used Ballistic Advantage government profile. In hindsight I would have went with something closer to 12 and maybe with a mid-length gas system. 

My firearm that I purchased has a 12" barrel. 

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34 minutes ago, Sparda81 said:

Just got this in an email. Thoughts?

74AF1B38-1994-41AA-97FA-59169A2496A2.jpeg

Looks like a basic non-firearm for $674.99.

If you want one and you have the money seems like a good deal.

Steve is an outstanding dealer so it's an easy decision.

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Hi, sorry to dig up an old post, but does the lower NEED to be stamped ''Other'' or ''Other Firearm'' for you to have a build? i realize on the 4473 it is classified as ''other'' or ''lower receiver'' making it an other on paper, but is it okay to take a regular anderson lower and build into an other, following the strict other laws, but not have ''other'' marked on the receiver?

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5 minutes ago, John Smith said:

Hi, sorry to dig up an old post, but does the lower NEED to be stamped ''Other'' or ''Other Firearm'' for you to have a build? i realize on the 4473 it is classified as ''other'' or ''lower receiver'' making it an other on paper, but is it okay to take a regular anderson lower and build into an other, following the strict other laws, but not have ''other'' marked on the receiver?

It doesn't matter what is marked on the lower.

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3 hours ago, Blacksmythe said:

The thing to look out for are creative FFLs trying to be slick with the transfer of lowers. A list should be made of these shameful individuals. 

Though if someone already bought a lower and the FFL didn't record it as "other" I'm not sure that's their problem.  The FFL screwed up, marking it incorrectly doesn't make it a rifle or pistol.  If they transferred a rifle as a pistol it wouldn't turn you into a criminal for buying without a permit.

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7 hours ago, Blacksmythe said:

The thing to look out for are creative FFLs trying to be slick with the transfer of lowers. A list should be made of these shameful individuals. 

I dont get it. 

 

They need to be transferred as receivers.. as they came in the door. The ATF would have a field day with a book carrying discrepancies like that.

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Yeah there are ffls refusing to put them as “other“ and giving out paper work to sign saying you won’t make one out of the receiver their selling you. They are intentionally misleading the person trying to purchase about law or recommendations. 

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I wonder if its the same FFLs pulling this shit

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Hometown/Stripped-Other-Firearm-Lower/50-639195/

They are selling lowers marked " Other Firearm" for $200 saying these are the only recievers you can build a non-NFA firearm on 

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