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Legal Status of Non-NFA Firearm AR Build?

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3 minutes ago, shooter28 said:

I’m in the process of building mine. The brace came today. I pick up the lower tomorrow. Upper receiver will be build by Andro Corp. The NJSP provided a letter that outlines what characteristics make his type of firearm legal. Follow it and you’ll be fine. In one of these threads, the guy recorded a conversation with NJSP and they said it was fine to build your own, just be carefully not to create an SBR. 

Not sure I fully understand the line of thinking that the letter only applies to that specific firearm and nothing else. AFAIK, you don’t need NJSP approval to sell NJ compliant firearms. Does every single AR manufacturer and home builder get approval letter for their version of an AR15 or do they just follow the law? I don’t understand why this would be any different. 

Exactly, why is this thread so long. It's like legislation.

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14 minutes ago, Blacksmythe said:

Exactly, why is this thread so long. It's like legislation.

Well, there is NJ law and there is ATF regs.

In NJ I would be worried about NJ more... If you are not... you have not been a gun owner here long enough.

Furthermore, there was a NJSP clarification letter that I am trying to get and will post shortly.

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Just now, Maksim said:

Well, there is NJ law and there is ATF regs.

In NJ I would be worried about NJ more... If you are not... you have not been a gun owner here long enough.

Furthermore, there was a NJSP clarification letter that I am trying to get and will post shortly.

Oh joy.

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1 minute ago, Blacksmythe said:

Oh joy.

Yep.

Now that we have all four major Non-NFA manufacturers here on the community we have a good pipeline of information from their discussions with powers that be.  @Franklin Armory @Modern Materiel @Dark Storm @TechOpsInternational.

And have discussed this with many dealers since, many of whom were friends before becoming dealers.

There is a very big difference between being right and being effective.  We may all be in the right by wanting to build our own, and IN PA, VA or somewhere else... it may be smart and OK to do that, especially since "Other" on the 4473 was a common thing.

In NJ, when the guns are "oh soooo wrong" and really is "Three wrongs make a right"... there is no logical reason to risk it.

Yes, you can build it... but it would be at home or at private ranges.

Or... if you have things to lose while waiting to be cleared... either 1. Don't buy these guns, don't build them, don't even look at them... or 2. Buy one that the NJSP okayed and dealers have no problem selling.  AT that point an AG would rather go after the evil doers with deeper pockets than "you, the poor guy who was made to believe those guns are legal."

 

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2 hours ago, SJG said:

State Police cannot set the "law" unless this is incorporated into an administrative regulation or statute. However, it would be stupid to "stir the pot" as we know what would come next. This is really guidance, but very important guidance. But it does beg the question if you assemble one, and what you assemble does not vary from the "mold". No harm, no foul? Of course, dealers would be well advised to follow this guidance.

Well the key is... where the receiver came from and how it was taken.  I.e. Point 3 on that letter.

I think this was crystal clear guidance of what the authorities want you to do... Buy it as a complete gun, and no assembling.

This was verbatim from what one dealer/distributor was told by NJSP and echoed by others. 

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9 minutes ago, shooter28 said:

I’m pretty sure that was already posted in one of these threads. 

 

8 minutes ago, Sparda81 said:

I think that’s the one I posted today

Probably... waiting to see the one I get sent.

But yes... crystal clear there... no picking up the lower as a "other" even and then building it into a gun.. it must be sold from the dealer as a complete" other firearm"

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2 minutes ago, Maksim said:

 

Probably... waiting to see the one I get sent.

But yes... crystal clear there... no picking up the lower as a "other" even and then building it into a gun.. it must be sold from the dealer as a complete" other firearm"

You missed the recorded conversation where NJSP said building your own was fine. The letter was intended to help people avoid creating an SBR

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10 minutes ago, Maksim said:

Yep.

Now that we have all four major Non-NFA manufacturers here on the community we have a good pipeline of information from their discussions with powers that be.  @Franklin Armory @Modern Materiel @Dark Storm @TechOpsInternational.

And have discussed this with many dealers since, many of whom were friends before becoming dealers.

There is a very big difference between being right and being effective.  We may all be in the right by wanting to build our own, and IN PA, VA or somewhere else... it may be smart and OK to do that, especially since "Other" on the 4473 was a common thing.

In NJ, when the guns are "oh soooo wrong" and really is "Three wrongs make a right"... there is no logical reason to risk it.

Yes, you can build it... but it would be at home or at private ranges.

Or... if you have things to lose while waiting to be cleared... either 1. Don't buy these guns, don't build them, don't even look at them... or 2. Buy one that the NJSP okayed and dealers have no problem selling.  AT that point an AG would rather go after the evil doers with deeper pockets than "you, the poor guy who was made to believe those guns are legal."

 

SOLGW also makes a version. There’s was released in May as NJ legal with no approval letter

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1 minute ago, shooter28 said:

You missed the recorded conversation where NJSP said building your own was fine. The letter was intended to help people avoid creating an SBR

You are missing the point that what someone has on the phone from whenever is irrelevant.

They said that BEFORE... they changed their mind and offered clarification.

Multiple examples of that in the past.

 

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6 minutes ago, PK90 said:

I'll refrain from any further comment for fear of the Ban Hammer.

LOL.

Oh Paul, you know you would not get one.

Again, difference in being right or effective.

As per ATF... yes can build it.

As per NJSP, they do not want you to build it.

Why take the risk?

Of course it is easy for us to talk... because well you are an FFL in Arizona and I am in PA.

If you were a civilian in NJ who can't talk their way out of paper bag... would you recommend someone really to build their own from an existing receiver?  AFTER NJSP tells you they don't want you to?

3 minutes ago, shooter28 said:

SOLGW also makes a version. There’s was released in May as NJ legal with no approval letter

SOLGW?

I do know that Dark Rain Ordinance is apparently making as well...

The larger manufacturers I spoke with have no plans on doing these... both PSA, and other BIG manufacturers.   Most everyone on that side puts this being closed within a year. 

... and cut this down even further if Trump goes after Pistol Braces.

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5 minutes ago, Maksim said:

You are missing the point that what someone has on the phone from whenever is irrelevant.

They said that BEFORE... they changed their mind and offered clarification.

Multiple examples of that in the past.

 

Brett Bloom of the firearm unit said this after the clarification letter came out. 

SOLGW - sons of Liberty gun works

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2 minutes ago, Maksim said:

LOL.

Oh Paul, you know you would not get one.

Again, difference in being right or effective.

As per ATF... yes can build it.

As per NJSP, they do not want you to build it.

Why take the risk?

Of course it is easy for us to talk... because well you are an FFL in Arizona and I am in PA.

If you were a civilian in NJ who can't talk their way out of paper bag... would you recommend someone really to build their own from an existing receiver?  AFTER NJSP tells you they don't want you to?

Yes. The NJSP FIU needs to be put in their place. 

But you're right. I can throw stones all I want from here. LOL

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Here is the $200 tax...

image.png

I like having THAT "Other Firearm" right there on the receiver and have a copy of the letter in the bag.  

 

Try that with an AR LOWEr built gun?

Eh...

Again, in PA... I would... but honestly I would just build a pistol... or add an AFG... but this is the only one going to our NJ range days with me.

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Built on a normal AR15 receiver. NJ legal.

https://sonsoflibertygw.com/solgw-occupied-zone-other-firearm-customizable/

And another on a standard AR15 receiver.

48525116247_51fc2c7407_b.jpg

Neither of these have approval letters yet are being sold legally in state. Are these dealers pushing out illegal weapons? Or does that "clarification letter" really hold no power behind its "suggestion"

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4 minutes ago, shooter28 said:

Built on a normal AR15 receiver. NJ legal.

https://sonsoflibertygw.com/solgw-occupied-zone-other-firearm-customizable/

And another on a standard AR15 receiver.

48525116247_51fc2c7407_b.jpg

Neither of these have approval letters yet are being sold legally in state. Are these dealers pushing out illegal weapons? Or does that "clarification letter" really hold no power behind its "suggestion"

As long as you pick it up from a NJ dealer as a complete rifle and the dealer correctly sells it as a "Other Firearm" then there is no problem with the above gun.

The difference is, they want you to BUY IT from the dealer as ONE COMPLETE GUN...

Rather than having you buy your own lower and then build it into that.

 

Btw, all of the lowers are exactly the same... the main difference is how it is sold and transferred on a 4473. 

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So you agree then that the approval letters don’t restrict the sale of these weapons to only those that were specifically listed? It explains what laws exist that allow this weapon to be legal and sets out the guidelines for any weapon to follow in the future. 

Again, the letter isn’t law and doesn’t create law. It warns against building your own firearm because you risk creating a SBR/AOW and also risk constructive intent/possession. It does not say it’s illegal to build your own. There is a legal means to assemble this yourself while navigating laws that might trip you up. Brett Bloom clarified this after this clarification letter as he too is looking to build his own. 

And yes, I know the receivers are the same. I only pointed it out because you felt safer with “other” marked on the receiver. 

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6 minutes ago, shooter28 said:

So you agree then that the approval letters don’t restrict the sale of these weapons to only those that were specifically listed? It explains what laws exist that allow this weapon to be legal and sets out the guidelines for any weapon to follow in the future. 

Again, the letter isn’t law and doesn’t create law. It warns against building your own firearm because you risk creating a SBR/AOW and also risk constructive intent/possession. It does not say it’s illegal to build your own. There is a legal means to assemble this yourself while navigating laws that might trip you up. Brett Bloom clarified this after this clarification letter as he too is looking to build his own. 

And yes, I know the receivers are the same. I only pointed it out because you felt safer with “other” marked on the receiver. 

HEH?  Holy batman...

Let's take it one by one.

No one here, including myself said that ONLY the two guns on the letter are legal.  BUT, they are the two guns that were explicitely reviewed and okayed by NJSP.  So I call those two guns the ultimate in the safe category.

The clarification letter gives you plenty of intent... i.e. NJSP DOES NOT WANT YOU to build your own... BUT  they can't tell you not to build it.  And you even have a Lawyer here telling you you should not stir the pot.

And of course I feel safer with "other" marked on the receiver... who wouldn't?

Do you honestly feel more comfortable going to the range or being pulled over or having your assembled gun put together OR.... a gun that is explicitly marked "Other" and has a letter from the NJSP explicitly saying this gun is okay?

Again, in both cases, we agree that an assembled gun is just as legal as a purchased firearm... BUT... that will be proven in court... 

And... well, I don't want it to go there in the first place.

Hence the difference between being right and being effective.

Yes... it may be 100% legal to do it... but so is pulling up to a cop and telling them to go screw themselves after they finish their donut... I just don't think it is a smart thing to do for anyone who has a family, assets or simply does not want undue attention.

Yes, I feel 100% comfortable explaining how it may be legal... but there is no way in hell do I want that attention.

And if I had any of those guns, I would make sure in the case, readily available I would have copies of the letter, a receipt from the dealer, the marketing material and everything else that says "other firearm."  Just in case.

And that is assuming someone actually wants to hear out your case on the spot instead of "taking you in for having an assault weapon, we'll sort this out later.

Of course, if you are in law enforcement, or your family is and you have a badge, a card or connections, OR you are an FFL.... then your risk tolerance is going to be significantly higher and yes... go ahead build your own. 

Before wife and kids and a mortgage payment, I would be the first to go out and build one... now?  No thanks.  Not worth the risk when there is a basically risk free alternative for just $200 more (if that) and that comes with a warranty. 

And with the whole pistol brace thing... speaking with dealers here, there is a good amount of people that are going ahead and doing it right and paying the tax stamp and making them legal SBRs.... the whole pistol brace thing is likely to get shut down soon anyway by your "Gun Friendly, the 2nd Amendment will not be attacked" president. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Maksim said:

HEH?  Holy batman...

Let's take it one by one.

No one here, including myself said that ONLY the two guns on the letter are legal.  BUT, they are the two guns that were explicitely reviewed and okayed by NJSP.  So I call those two guns the ultimate in the safe category.

The clarification letter gives you plenty of intent... i.e. NJSP DOES NOT WANT YOU to build your own... BUT  they can't tell you not to build it.  And you even have a Lawyer here telling you you should not stir the pot.

And of course I feel safer with "other" marked on the receiver... who wouldn't?

Do you honestly feel more comfortable going to the range or being pulled over or having your assembled gun put together OR.... a gun that is explicitly marked "Other" and has a letter from the NJSP explicitly saying this gun is okay?

Again, in both cases, we agree that an assembled gun is just as legal as a purchased firearm... BUT... that will be proven in court... 

And... well, I don't want it to go there in the first place.

Hence the difference between being right and being effective.

Yes... it may be 100% legal to do it... but so is pulling up to a cop and telling them to go screw themselves after they finish their donut... I just don't think it is a smart thing to do for anyone who has a family, assets or simply does not want undue attention.

Yes, I feel 100% comfortable explaining how it may be legal... but there is no way in hell do I want that attention.

And if I had any of those guns, I would make sure in the case, readily available I would have copies of the letter, a receipt from the dealer, the marketing material and everything else that says "other firearm."  Just in case.

And that is assuming someone actually wants to hear out your case on the spot instead of "taking you in for having an assault weapon, we'll sort this out later.

Of course, if you are in law enforcement, or your family is and you have a badge, a card or connections, OR you are an FFL.... then your risk tolerance is going to be significantly higher and yes... go ahead build your own. 

Before wife and kids and a mortgage payment, I would be the first to go out and build one... now?  No thanks.  Not worth the risk when there is a basically risk free alternative for just $200 more (if that) and that comes with a warranty. 

And with the whole pistol brace thing... speaking with dealers here, there is a good amount of people that are going ahead and doing it right and paying the tax stamp and making them legal SBRs.... the whole pistol brace thing is likely to get shut down soon anyway by your "Gun Friendly, the 2nd Amendment will not be attacked" president. 

 

Yes, why wait for the politicians to strip our rights when we can do it ourselves?

If you want one, buy one or build one.  If a cop is inspecting your firearms in NJ you're already in bad shape, regardless of what kind you have.

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8 minutes ago, everythingisnothing said:

Yes, why wait for the politicians to strip our rights when we can do it ourselves?

If you want one, buy one or build one.  If a cop is inspecting your firearms in NJ you're already in bad shape, regardless of what kind you have.

#1... welcome to NJ .  In NJ... GUNS ARE ILLEGAL EXCEPT.... we operate within those exceptions.

#2.  Not at all.  I have shot with many LEO... A LOT of whom are right here on the forum. ... and at public ranges... expect people to be looking at what you are shooting.  Go ahead and shoot it at Ft. Dix. =)

 

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29 minutes ago, Maksim said:

#1... welcome to NJ .  In NJ... GUNS ARE ILLEGAL EXCEPT.... we operate within those exceptions.

#2.  Not at all.  I have shot with many LEO... A LOT of whom are right here on the forum. ... and at public ranges... expect people to be looking at what you are shooting.  Go ahead and shoot it at Ft. Dix. =)

 

This whole thing is an exercise in how this isn't true. The law bans a very specific class of firearms--if it doesn't fall into that, it's legal.  People love ribbing Californian gun owners but at least they are always trying to work around their laws with things like the bullet button.  Anyone here suggests anything that doesn't have a stamp of approval from both NJSP and Evan Nappen and it's definitely not legal, like some sort of Stockholm syndrome.

Also, I have to imagine you're exaggerating, but if the average experience at Range 14 is LEOs checking if your guns are legal, remind me to never shoot there.

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6 minutes ago, everythingisnothing said:

This whole thing is an exercise in how this isn't true. The law bans a very specific class of firearms--if it doesn't fall into that, it's legal.  People love ribbing Californian gun owners but at least they are always trying to work around their laws with things like the bullet button.  Anyone here suggests anything that doesn't have a stamp of approval from both NJSP and Evan Nappen and it's definitely not legal, like some sort of Stockholm syndrome.

Also, I have to imagine you're exaggerating, but if the average experience at Range 14 is LEOs checking if your guns are legal, remind me to never shoot there.

Here is the thing, Our laws are very different than California.

In California there are things that are banned... in NJ, everything is banned EXCEPT, ala Mass. etc.

There is plenty of illegal stuff already in NJ and we won't go there.  These non-nfa guns are merely an out of the blue situation that arose out of the the NJSP saying okay to the Mossberg Shockwave as an "other firearm" which opened the door.

There are plenty of guns that fly under the radar but what's different here is the pure amount of in your face FU that these guns are, both an FU to NJ law and the ATF.  You live in NJ... you know where NJ and the majority of the population stands on guns... being the nail that sticks out... generally is not the wisest thing.  That is why so many gun owners have left NJ in the last decade.

These guns are seriously fun, they really are... but unless you are a 20 something year old that does not have dependents and really wants attention, building one is not the wisest idea... but I suspect that most people here and most gun owners are going to buy one anyway instead of building, and the vast majority of the guns that are built will rarely see the range.

And yes.. Range 14 does have noisey ROs, besides you are shooting in military grounds, expect your stuff to get inspected.  I do not know of anything with "other firearms" and Range 14 and have not shot there in years...

When the 15/30 mags were first coming out from Midwest PX, on at least 2 or 3 occasions Range 14 ROs came by to check them out.  And when you are shooting at a public indoor range... don't worry, you're on camera.

 

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If you are going to build your own please don't post that fact on a public forum. You are just giving the state the finger even if what you end up building is technically legal. It is shit like this that will invite attention and encourage legislation . You will ruin it for the rest of us.  Why? because legislators will conclude that they cannot control the non-NFA category, especially if one is confiscated and/or ends up slightly different from the mold. You can bet your ass that the State knows who the licensed manufacturers are. You are just drawing attention to yourself.

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