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Legal Status of Non-NFA Firearm AR Build?

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11 minutes ago, e92m3allday said:

 

Yup. 11.5” is good to go also. 10.5” is good to go too, in my opinion. 

The only why reason Connecticut’s non-NFA (“other”) firearms have 12.5” barrels is because their AWB statute defines semi-autos with detachable magazines that are less than 30” in OAL as assault weapons.

NJ does not have such a law, yet. (It is one of the laws Murphy is trying to pass.) What this means though is that you can have a shorter barrel, as long as the firearm is is 26” OAL. 

Now I must mention that there is some debate and controversy on how to properly measure OAL. Some people feel it is safer to measure from buffer tube. Some measure from the brace in the extended most position, and I believe this is the correct way. The ATF has always extended the brace (as well as stocks) when taking measurements of firearms. The Franklin Armory XO-26 letter I posted in this thread earlier says to extend and measure from the rearmost position. There is also another email from the ATF, explicitly instructing to extend the brace when measuring. This matters because if you want a 10.5” barrel, following their way is good to go. But If you want to play it safe and measure from buffer tube for whatever reason, 10.5” will be just shy of 26” unless you pin the muzzle device. 

Another thing I wanted to mention, because these are firearms and not rifles, pistols, or shotguns, they do not follow AWB’s. So flash hiders are good to go. 

So question, if I decided to do a build, can a lower receiver that’s marked /firearm/ on the 4473 can be turned into a rifle if I ever decide to just make it a rifle or go back and forth between rifle and firearm? 

 

Im ready to make a few orders once that NJSP letter is released.

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7 minutes ago, nondisclosure said:

So question, if I decided to do a build, can a lower receiver that’s marked /firearm/ be turned into a rifle if I ever decide to just make it a rifle or go back and forth between rifle and firearm? 

There is probably no markings on the receiver. There is an ATF ruling that says the first build determines what it will be. Pistols can be made into rifles then back to pistols, but not rifles into pistols. I'll assume the same is true for firearms, so yes to your question, IMO.

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2 minutes ago, PK90 said:

There is probably no markings on the receiver. There is an ATF ruling that says the first build determines what it will be. Pistols can be made into rifles then back to pistols, but not rifles into pistols. I'll assume the same is true for firearms, so yes to your question, IMO.

Ok so next receiver purchase on the 4473 will be marked ‘firearm’ this way if I don’t like the small setup I can still use it as a rifle. This is kind of fantastic actually. Any word on when the state police may issue the letter? 

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1 minute ago, nondisclosure said:

Ok so next receiver purchase on the 4473 will be marked ‘firearm’ this way if I don’t like the small setup I can still use it as a rifle. This is kind of fantastic actually. Any word on when the state police may issue the letter? 

4473 = "other".

Bound Book = "receiver".

Most likely one will use a FPID and COE.

I would personally recommend a P2P.

Letter? We ain't got no letter. We don't need no letter. They don't have to show us any stink'n letter!!!

Gold_Hat_portrayed_by_Alfonso_Bedoya.jpg

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30 minutes ago, nondisclosure said:

So question, if I decided to do a build, can a lower receiver that’s marked /firearm/ on the 4473 can be turned into a rifle if I ever decide to just make it a rifle or go back and forth between rifle and firearm? 

 

Im ready to make a few orders once that NJSP letter is released.

Yes, as answered above. 

That updated Reddit post was my post by the way. As soon as we get them in at Reloaderz, I’ll have all the information for you guys and I will grab a copy of that NJSP letter as well. Can’t wait to see these things in the hands of N.J. gun owners. 

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UPDATE. I got the letter. LINK HERE.

From the NJSP:
"The New Jersey State Police Firearms Unit finds that the submitted Troy Industries A4 "other firearm" as well as the Dark Storm Industries DS-15 Non-NFA Firearm Typhoon are legal for sale in the State of New Jersey and are NOT considered to be an "assault firearm." This opinion is based upon the two firearms reviewed, however if the design or dimensions change from those samples, it may change the classification of the firearm. ".
 
From the ATF:
"In conclusion, correspondence from our Branch is dependent on the particular facts,designs, charactersitics or scenarios presented. Please be aware that although other cases (submissions to our Branch) may appear to present identical issues, this correspondence pertains to a particular issue or item. We caution against applying the guidance in this correspondence to other cases, because complex legal or technical issues may exist that differentiate this scenario or finding from others that only appear to be the same.
This determination is based on the sample as submitted. If the design, dimensions, configuration, method of operation, or materials used were changed, this classification would be subject to review."
 
OAL:
According to the measurements, they measure OAL from the buffer tubes.
 
My opinion.
I may have an unpopular opinion on this. First thing first, the GOOD news is that our state literally just acknowledged the LEGALITY of non-NFA firearms in NJ!!! That shit is f*cking huge in of itself. Like holy shit man. That is f*cking amazing..... Now, let's talk about this.
The two sections of the letters are very clear to caution everyone not to use these letters to justify the legality of other firearms. It's pretty straightforward. Don't try and use this letter to justify why a AR pistol is legal, because the letter of the law is VERY specific as to why non-NFA firearms are legal, and the average folk may not realize that something as simple as removing a VFG would make it illegal. We are talking about a category of arms that would be a federal crime to own if it was only 0.60 inches shorter or if the VFG was taken off. OBVIOUSLY they are going to say this. They have to urge everyone to be careful, because the lines are already so god damn blurred with these senseless gun laws.
It's pretty simple. Do NOT remove the VFG, DO NOT put a stock on it, it HAS to be >26". The gun is legal in its STRICT format. Any small variation (no VFG grip, shorter barrel, etc) will make it illegal!
The ATF letter mentions if any of the following are changed, they would be subject to another review. NONE OF THEM SHOULD CHANGE REGARDLESS.
  • design (non-NFA firearm designed to be used with two hands)
  • dimensions (HAS to be greater than 26")
  • configuration (NEEDS A BRACE, and a VFG)
  • method of operation (semi-automatic, not automatic)
  • materials (metal, plastic, same materials)
The important takeaway for me is this. We know the LAW because they literally spent the whole letter explaining it for us. They then told us it was legal to own and purchase. That is literally a done deal. Some people may get scared from building their own because of this letter, I personally see this as a green light. You know what is legal, you know what is not. If you are scared of building your own because you want the states little stamp of approval, then I guess you should send in all your guns to NJSP!
But in all seriousness, I simply cannot find a single law that would prevent us from doing so. The guidelines of legality are set SUPER straight, even by our own draconian AG's office and NJSP. Stripped lower receivers are marked as OTHER on the 4473, which is exactly what these non-NFA firearms are processed as. We are in NJ though so, the general disclaimer is to be a gun owner at your own peril :)
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4 minutes ago, shooter28 said:

How short of a barrel can we use to still get the 26” needed? Will a 11.5” barrel with a pinned FH/comp/brake get us there? 

Nvm. According to Modern Materiel, it looks like we can’t build our own. F*cking NJ

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2 minutes ago, e92m3allday said:

I disagree with this, but that’s just me. Can’t say I wasn’t right before, either. :8):

 

Just now, PK90 said:

And me.

Interesting.

Either of you happen to know the answer to my original question- will an 11.5” pinned with a FH or brake be long enough to meet 26”? I figured a dealer, especially one in a free state may have had something come thru their shop. I’ve never handled one so I can’t be sure. Raw measurements of just the upper and lower with brace seem to meet it but I’m not sure. 

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3 minutes ago, shooter28 said:

 

Interesting.

Either of you happen to know the answer to my original question- will an 11.5” pinned with a FH or brake be long enough to meet 26”? I figured a dealer, especially one in a free state may have had something come thru their shop. I’ve never handled one so I can’t be sure. Raw measurements of just the upper and lower with brace seem to meet it but I’m not sure. 

11.5 pinned will 100% meet the requirement.

I'm just trying to figure out if a 11.5" would, w/o having to pin and weld. It may fall just short, unless you get a slightly longer tube.

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19 minutes ago, e92m3allday said:

11.5 pinned will 100% meet the requirement.

I'm just trying to figure out if a 11.5" would, w/o having to pin and weld. It may fall just short, unless you get a slightly longer tube.

The Dark Storm Industries letter seems to say that with a 12.5" barrel the OAL is 28", so I would assume that a similar configuration but with 11.5" would probably be ~27", with some leeway for different barrels or tubes or whatever.  How long is your OAL from tube to FH tip? The pinned FH on a 10.5" barrel should be about the same as a 12" barrel, right?

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Hey Fellas We will be doing some test drives of our guns around the state soon. Probably at Shooters in Little Egg Harbor, Shore Shot in Lakewood and Reloaderz in Wayne. If i can answer any questions or be of service in anyway please let me know. You can contact me directly at joe@modernmateriel.com

Thanks,

Joe

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While I probably can get something better in Maine, I kind of want to buy one when I’m back in NJ... packing for the move. Maybe just knowing that and my TAC-14 were both middle fingers to NJ. Don’t know, but I’m very interested in pricing and who will stock them in Monmouth County.

Hopefully HGW or Monmouth Arms (favoring Steve, since I won’t see him anymore). Shore Shot... too much bad blood over the years for me to walk back in.

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Wow. This is great news. Looking forward to handling something similar to what the rest of America (roughly) has access to.

While fully realizing there are some trade-off's compared to what the rest of America gets in every direction away from NJ, this is a benefit in every direction. Surely, this is something more compact that the wife would love.

"i like this but it would be better if it was smaller"- Wife :o (at this moment I introduced a comment about PA, and got the stern NO) at least for now.  And I've ironically never heard a woman ask for anything "smaller" in my life.

 

So VFG and a Brace. Where to even start?

Run a carbine system, h2 plug .750 gas port and a standard bolt and everything should be 100% operational around 10.5-12.5? Dont remove the grip and everyone is a-okay? :yahoo:

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49 minutes ago, Screwball said:

While I probably can get something better in Maine, I kind of want to buy one when I’m back in NJ... packing for the move. Maybe just knowing that and my TAC-14 were both middle fingers to NJ. Don’t know, but I’m very interested in pricing and who will stock them in Monmouth County.

Hopefully HGW or Monmouth Arms (favoring Steve, since I won’t see him anymore). Shore Shot... too much bad blood over the years for me to walk back in.

Its not even about the middle finger. I figure, my wife gets home early from work (substantially earlier than I, 90% of the time) , and has access to something that will protect her and the family, finally available to us, that has ammo that is considered commonly available, easy to use, with minimal recoil.

 

Unfortunately, the rest of the United States has had access to such items for a few years, and if it is the incentive of the commonwealth of NJ to tax firearms and ammunition,  then making more things available to the people that aren't restricted, just makes sense. While I do argue taxes, especially in the great state of NJ, the taxation of firearms and such items, why even consider restricting any access to firearms that are similar in nature; yet benefit the state?

Sometimes, I think both republicans and democrats and the typical ideologies of the typical politicians of NJ get it wrong more often than not and this is something that just makes sense. Hello, Shockwave?

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1 hour ago, Rufio.Weaponworks said:

so how long until the Murphy Militia ruins our fun with this one?

Interesting question.

Because it is very strict in terms of this works within the law... I think NJ AG will need to push some new laws to be passed to redefine what "pistols" are.  Keep in mind they already have a number of bills in committees so it would be easy for them to sneak it in there.

So... Longer than the M1 Carbine was "legal" as per NJSP about 8 years ago... but less than 1 year?

Maybe even 6 months if these things start taking off and are the top topic on NJGF, Reddit Guns, FB and other sites... and the largest dealers start pushing these. 

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Not sure, one of my friends in CA said it was a few years ago, my guess is 2016 when they went nuts with their AWB.

currently in CA you can buy a single shot-drop top AR pistol and convert it to semi auto on your own accord....again not 100% certain this is the law. 

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