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13 hours ago, capt14k said:

NJ doesnt recognize Antique Handguns and Antique Longguns shipped directly to your house. Pickup in or out of state and bring home no paperwork or FID needed for antique Long gun. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Picked up out of state and bring home is OK for any antique. Picked up in NJ in person requires the same paperwork as a modern firearm. Shipping to your door is a no go in NJ. I know there is an exemption for "Antique" long guns from having an FPID card to buy them, but that definition is much narrower than the federal definition of "Antiques" and can be subject to interpretation. For example a Trapdoor Springfield would not be covered as an antique in NJ because it fires commercially available ammo.

13 hours ago, capt14k said:

 

 

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Picked up out of state and bring home is OK for any antique. Picked up in NJ in person requires the same paperwork as a modern firearm. Shipping to your door is a no go in NJ. I know there is an exemption for "Antique" long guns from having an FPID card to buy them, but that definition is much narrower than the federal definition of "Antiques" and can be subject to interpretation. For example a Trapdoor Springfield would not be covered as an antique in NJ because it fires commercially available ammo.


True NJ definition does differ from federal. When and how did the no shipping to door start?


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1 minute ago, capt14k said:

 


True NJ definition does differ from federal. When and how did the no shipping to door start?


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I believe that has been there all along - since the FPID card was created in 1966, but I'm not certain about that. Technically shipping to your door would be legal if the antique long gun meets NJ "Antique" definition, but as I said earlier that is difficult to establish.

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On 7/1/2018 at 10:18 PM, Oakridgefirearms said:

I believe that has been there all along - since the FPID card was created in 1966, but I'm not certain about that. Technically shipping to your door would be legal if the antique long gun meets NJ "Antique" definition, but as I said earlier that is difficult to establish.

No shipping to door started in 2009. I used to get my CMP orders direct even before I had a C&R.

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1 hour ago, capt14k said:

 


I thought that only affected CMP?


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The only ship to door was CMP. C&R was never allowed to ship to door. Always had to go 01.

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Woah now, just because some NJ laws say that someone with a C&R license is allowed to do certain things does not mean that NJ is just going to let you do everything with it that you could do if you lived in, for instance, Texas.

You can't do anything with a federal C&R License if state law forbids it.  That's right in the C&R handbook.

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/p-5300-11-firearms-curios-or-relics-listpdf-0/download

Read p. 52-53.  If NJ doesn't allow it, you can't do it.

I don't see anything anywhere that says with a C&R license you can have curio and relic guns mailed to your house, for instance, even though if you lived in Texas it would be OK.  From what I have seen, NJ still says that's a no-no.

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Woah now, just because some NJ laws say that someone with a C&R license is allowed to do certain things does not mean that NJ is just going to let you do everything with it that you could do if you lived in, for instance, Texas.
You can't do anything with a federal C&R License if state law forbids it.  That's right in the C&R handbook.
https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/p-5300-11-firearms-curios-or-relics-listpdf-0/download
Read p. 52-53.  If NJ doesn't allow it, you can't do it.
I don't see anything anywhere that says with a C&R license you can have curio and relic guns mailed to your house, for instance, even though if you lived in Texas it would be OK.  From what I have seen, NJ still says that's a no-no.
Where does NJ say you can't have it mailed?

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1 hour ago, capt14k said:

Where does NJ say you can't have it mailed?

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No idea.  All I know is the CMP won't ship rifles to NJ residents, since somehow someone in the state police found out they were doing it and stopped it, saying it was illegal.  I think that was like 5-10 years ago.  It also was formerly understood C&R licensees could not receive shipments of firearms in the mail in NJ either.  Something about it not being a legalized intrastate private sale (NJ to NJ resident) with COE filled out, and not a sale through a NJ dealer, so it didn't fit into either category of legal sale.

If you think the new law legalized direct mail shipments to C&R licensees, you ought to ask a lawyer to really look at it to make sure.  It would be odd indeed if Murphy expanded gun rights with this law.  Perhaps he did.  Would be nice if so.  But don't risk a felony by leaping to conclusions about what is legal and what is not.  This is something you want to be 100% sure about before you even think about doing.

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CMP decision was based on signing of COE in person. Also didn't have specific FFL03 to FFL03 exempt before. Lastly I am not really concerned about NJ laws since when they are in effect I should be gone.

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31 minutes ago, kman said:

No idea.  All I know is the CMP won't ship rifles to NJ residents, since somehow someone in the state police found out they were doing it and stopped it, saying it was illegal.  I think that was like 5-10 years ago.  It also was formerly understood C&R licensees could not receive shipments of firearms in the mail in NJ either.  Something about it not being a legalized intrastate private sale (NJ to NJ resident) with COE filled out, and not a sale through a NJ dealer, so it didn't fit into either category of legal sale.

If you think the new law legalized direct mail shipments to C&R licensees, you ought to ask a lawyer to really look at it to make sure.  It would be odd indeed if Murphy expanded gun rights with this law.  Perhaps he did.  Would be nice if so.  But don't risk a felony by leaping to conclusions about what is legal and what is not.  This is something you want to be 100% sure about before you even think about doing.

 

27 minutes ago, capt14k said:

CMP decision was based on signing of COE in person. Also didn't have specific FFL03 to FFL03 exempt before. Lastly I am not really concerned about NJ laws since when they are in effect I should be gone.

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CMP was contacted by NJ AG and told sending rifles direct was illegal in state as state law said all firearms transactions had to be face to face.  CMP required a copy of your NJFID card before that.  In spite of the fact CMP's requirements were more stringent than NJ's (club membership, proof of firearms training, etc) didn't seem to impress  NJ.

When you bought a rifle from CMP in the store or by mail they never required a COE.  I've bought rifles out of state from FFLS  and no one ever required a COE (I know some do).  I've had out of state FFLS say, "That's a NJ form.  I don't have to maintain forms for NJ.  Your NJFID is listed on 4473 as ID.  That's all I need to be legal".

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CMP was contacted by NJ AG and told sending rifles direct was illegal in state as state law said all firearms transactions had to be face to face.  CMP required a copy of your NJFID card before that.  In spite of the fact CMP's requirements were more stringent than NJ's (club membership, proof of firearms training, etc) didn't seem to impress  NJ.
When you bought a rifle from CMP in the store or by mail they never required a COE.  I've bought rifles out of state from FFLS  and no one ever required a COE (I know some do).  I've had out of state FFLS say, "That's a NJ form.  I don't have to maintain forms for NJ.  Your NJFID is listed on 4473 as ID.  That's all I need to be legal".


Christie's AG


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Legality aside.

 

What are the odds of another 03 sending a firearms TO NJ...even if another 03 holder.

 

Some wont send items to an 01 OR 07....let alone an 03.

 

Me thinks it's all folly .....  BUT hopefully it pans out.

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Legality aside.
 
What are the odds of another 03 sending a firearms TO NJ...even if another 03 holder.
 
Some wont send items to an 01 OR 07....let alone an 03.
 
Me thinks it's all folly .....  BUT hopefully it pans out.


Not a chance an 03 in free America ships a handgun to an 03 in NJ. Longgun possibly. Just another reason to get out now.


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3 minutes ago, capt14k said:

 


Not a chance an 03 in free America ships a handgun to an 03 in NJ. Longgun possibly. Just another reason to get out now.


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I've been saying get out for the past 5 years....  my NJ sunset is closer each day....  I LOVE Sussex co .   My neighborhood, my home, my property some of my neighbors, I HATE LOATHE CANT STAND NJ.....

 

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I've been saying get out for the past 5 years....  my NJ sunset is closer each day....  I LOVE Sussex co .   My neighborhood, my home, my property some of my neighbors, I HATE LOATHE CANT STAND NJ.....
 


The problem with NJ is there are too many Liberal Firearms owners who are happy to settle and even believe in "common sense" laws such as defacto bans on full auto.


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3 minutes ago, capt14k said:

 


The problem with NJ is there are too many Liberal Firearms owners who are happy to settle and even believe in "common sense" laws such as defacto bans on full auto.


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There are more problems than that...lol...but yeah I get it.

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The state of nj wanted to know every shipment to NJ. because of carbine sales. CMP refused to divulge that info. So direct shipment was stopped.

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The state of nj wanted to know every shipment to NJ. because of carbine sales. CMP refused to divulge that info. So direct shipment was stopped.
That makes even more sense. Thank you for that info.

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Let us know how it goes.  Very interested.


Actually, was very easy... and likely would be identical to how FFL 01s are interviewed. They use the same computer program for both.

Agent came by around 12:00. Took about an hour. Very nice lady, and definitely was someone to ask firearm related questions. She set up her computer, and started asking basic questions (driver’s license for ID, location specifics... alarm, safe, CCTV, distance to schools, etc). Not one question specifically about myself and/or background (came up, as we talked about CBP/BP and ATF careers).

She asked me why I was going for it, I explained, which she didn’t know about the changes in the law recognizing FFL 03. Had me sign a form which explained that you are not allowed to have firearms shipped directly to a NJ home, per NJ law. Very helpful in explaining what is allowed/not allowed with a FFL 03 due to state law.

Rest of the interview was reviewing points on a computer program. It would explain each aspect of the basic law... straw purchases, A&D book (including filling it out, which she gave me some suggestions if I start buying a lot of C&R stuff), inspections, renewals, and basic good practices. There were points that had no bearing on a FFL 03, and she said as much as we went through the list (business related stuff). She said that there are NJ FFL 01s that transfer to FFL 03s, but it is strictly a business decision (same for other places that sell firearms, having a FFL 03 doesn’t mean you dictate the sale). If they don’t want to, you fill out a 4473 and do the NICS. Any C&R firearms I have do not need to go in the A&D book, nor ones I do not use the license for, unless I dispose of them with my license... but if I put stuff I acquired previously in there, and an actual inspection does occur, those firearms must be accounted for. If they are in a common safe, she said to tag the ones in the book, but if the agent questions a firearm in the safe that isn’t in the book, some sort of proof may be required (Certificate of Eligibility, for example).

I definitely was surprised at how nice she was, as well as how open she was for helping with any questions I (or others I may turn to her; her offer) may have. If I ended up disposing of a firearm, she said to definitely check state laws, as some have similar restrictions as NJ (NYC, was the first one that came to her mind). If I wasn’t sure, she told me she likely couldn’t answer legality outside of NJ... but she would get me in touch with someone in that ATF office who could help. She said that she doesn’t want to jam people up if a mistake is made, but rather people learn how to do the Federal aspect of it correctly. Completely respect that.

FFL 03 related stuff... NJ is the main state where the ATF interviews all applicants. She said it was dropped from like 2003-2009, and they just had nothing but problems. The interview isn’t really to make sure you aren’t a piece of crap, but to make you aware of Federal and NJ laws. They also try to do an interview once every other renewal (six year intervals), as it allows them to make sure the collector is up on any changes... as well as allows them to ask questions they might not want to call ATF regarding. If she is an example of the Trenton office, they definitely are a good resource for people with questions.
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Actually, was very easy... and likely would be identical to how FFL 01s are interviewed. They use the same computer program for both.

Agent came by around 12:00. Took about an hour. Very nice lady, and definitely was someone to ask firearm related questions. She set up her computer, and started asking basic questions (driver’s license for ID, location specifics... alarm, safe, CCTV, distance to schools, etc). Not one question specifically about myself and/or background (came up, as we talked about CBP/BP and ATF careers).

She asked me why I was going for it, I explained, which she didn’t know about the changes in the law recognizing FFL 03. Had me sign a form which explained that you are not allowed to have firearms shipped directly to a NJ home, per NJ law. Very helpful in explaining what is allowed/not allowed with a FFL 03 due to state law.

Rest of the interview was reviewing points on a computer program. It would explain each aspect of the basic law... straw purchases, A&D book (including filling it out, which she gave me some suggestions if I start buying a lot of C&R stuff), inspections, renewals, and basic good practices. There were points that had no bearing on a FFL 03, and she said as much as we went through the list (business related stuff). She said that there are NJ FFL 01s that transfer to FFL 03s, but it is strictly a business decision (same for other places that sell firearms, having a FFL 03 doesn’t mean you dictate the sale). If they don’t want to, you fill out a 4473 and do the NICS. Any C&R firearms I have do not need to go in the A&D book, nor ones I do not use the license for, unless I dispose of them with my license... but if I put stuff I acquired previously in there, and an actual inspection does occur, those firearms must be accounted for. If they are in a common safe, she said to tag the ones in the book, but if the agent questions a firearm in the safe that isn’t in the book, some sort of proof may be required (Certificate of Eligibility, for example).

I definitely was surprised at how nice she was, as well as how open she was for helping with any questions I (or others I may turn to her; her offer) may have. If I ended up disposing of a firearm, she said to definitely check state laws, as some have similar restrictions as NJ (NYC, was the first one that came to her mind). If I wasn’t sure, she told me she likely couldn’t answer legality outside of NJ... but she would get me in touch with someone in that ATF office who could help. She said that she doesn’t want to jam people up if a mistake is made, but rather people learn how to do the Federal aspect of it correctly. Completely respect that.

FFL 03 related stuff... NJ is the main state where the ATF interviews all applicants. She said it was dropped from like 2003-2009, and they just had nothing but problems. The interview isn’t really to make sure you aren’t a piece of crap, but to make you aware of Federal and NJ laws. They also try to do an interview once every other renewal (six year intervals), as it allows them to make sure the collector is up on any changes... as well as allows them to ask questions they might not want to call ATF regarding. If she is an example of the Trenton office, they definitely are a good resource for people with questions.
Inspection yes. At your house no. At least not according to the law.

Pursuant to 27 CFR 478.23 (Right of entry and examination): (a) Except as provided in paragraph (b), any ATF officer, when there is reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred and that evidence of the violation may be found on the premises of any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, may, upon demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate and obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, enter during business hours (or, in the case of a licensed collector, the hours of operation) the premises, including places of storage, of any such licensee for the purpose of inspecting or examining:

1.) Any records or documents required to be kept by such licensee under this part and

2.) Any inventory of firearms or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer at such premises or any firearms curios or relics or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed collector at such premises.

c) Any ATF officer, without having reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred or that evidence of the violation may be found and without demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate or obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector for the purpose of inspecting or examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition referred to in paragraph (a) of this section

(1) for ensuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part not more than once during any 12-month period or (2) when such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation.

At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in the closest proximity to the collector's premises.

(d) The inspections and examinations provided by this section do not authorize an ATF officer to seize any records or documents other than those records or documents constituting material evidence of a violation of law. If an ATF officer seizes such records or documents, copies shall be provided the licensee within a reasonable time.




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Sent in on Wednesday (6/13). Copy of application to HTPD was delivered on Friday (6/15).

Checked the status of certified mail this morning (6/18), wasn’t delivered. So was dropped to ATF between 8:00AM and 11:30AM. Charged my card a little bit ago.

Now the waiting begins...


Interview was 7/10...

License came to the house today (7/20).
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