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It is my impression that FFL(01?)'s info is readily available via search.  That is a bit of a liability, IMO. 

Is FFL 03 data readily available as well?

Makes one a target, not of the government, but of others. 

The need to still get a P2P is also an issue.  The greatest inconvenience is doing that, the worst of all being the need to hassle two friends to reply to your PD. 

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2 hours ago, capt14k said:

 


Remember handgun purchases still require a permit to purchase even with a FFL03. However the FFL03 removes the need for a FFL01 or NICS check as well as OGAM. Unfortunately no one in their right mind outside NJ will sell us a handgun and send in the paperwork with their name on it to NJSP and local PD.


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P2P sucks. But this only really comes up with a private purchase, right?

Example:

Say a legit FFL01 is selling a WW1 era 1911 pistol on a website.  Someone on here now has an FFL03, and an active P2P. 

Why couldn't signing the P2P be a term in the deal?  It's already on the FFL01's books.  

Now if that changed to FFL03, I assume it would still be the same. 

As I understand it, FFL03 doesn't authorize a private citizen to FFL 03 across state lines anyway, just 03 to 03, right?

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I guess the $64,000 question is can you get a C&R FFL, go to a FFL dealer's licensed place of business in, say, Montana for instance, and buy a C&R eligible handgun (say a 1920s era S&W revolver in some obscure caliber for instance) on your C&R FFL, without a NJ Pistol Permit, take possession in Montana over the counter, presenting your federal C&R FFL, and logging it into your bound book, without any NJ pistol purchase permit being present or filled out, without violating any Federal laws. 

It would seem that you can.  But has anyone confirmed this?

How would NJ law apply there?  It would seem to be the same as buying a blackpowder handgun in PA.  No federal law preventing it, no NJ state law applying, so the acquisition is legal.  NJ state law on acquisition doesn't apply outside of NJ's borders.  Just (in that case) Montana, and Federal law.

The Montana dealer can't sell an ordinary NJ resident a pistol in Montana.  Federal law bars an unlicensed person purchasing and receiving a handgun from a dealer outside of their state of residence.  But the question of whether a dealer in Montana can sell a C&R handgun to a NJ resident, face to face at the dealer's premises in Montana, with a C&R FFL - which allows them to receive it and log it into their bound book (subject to Federal ATF inspection) - that's the question. 

Looking for an answer to that one.  If no federal law bars that sale and transfer, then it would appear the answer would be yes.

Does anyone know for certain?

 

And I'm not talking about what anyone thinks might be the case - does anyone actually know?  Actually did it, or was told by someone in authority that would be permitted?

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9 minutes ago, PK90 said:

IMHO, you are 100% correct kman.

To clarify, 100% correct thatbone from NJ can buy FFL03 to 03 out of state outside of NJ regulations?

Wouldnt that only apply if one made their residence in a free state, or could justify that they resided in the state of transfer?

Thought 03 still had state regulations invoked, which is why P2Ps aware still needed?

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I'm not talking about buying with a FFL03.  I'm talking about the majority of people who don't have one.  Do what you want and the other 03 agrees with outside of NJ.  Outside of NJ you are only subject to Federal and state laws of the state you're in.
I don't think the "ONLY IN NJ" on the newer P2Ps was added as a stumbling block for 03s.  The newer forms have been put for well over a year.


Nope not a stubbling block at all. You just said NICS is always required and you cant buy handgun in another state when the topic was about FFL03. I will go with my own interpretation of the law.


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I feel sorry Capt will not be able to take full advantage of his possible future FFL03. I vote he move to PA [emoji4]
 


One am moving to PA. Two FFL03 I will make full use of in the meantime. Don't need anymore handguns currently. Focus is on rare rifles.


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It is my impression that FFL(01?)'s info is readily available via search.  That is a bit of a liability, IMO. 
Is FFL 03 data readily available as well?
Makes one a target, not of the government, but of others. 
The need to still get a P2P is also an issue.  The greatest inconvenience is doing that, the worst of all being the need to hassle two friends to reply to your PD. 


No you can't easily verify FFL03 like FFL01


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P2P sucks. But this only really comes up with a private purchase, right?
Example:
Say a legit FFL01 is selling a WW1 era 1911 pistol on a website.  Someone on here now has an FFL03, and an active P2P. 
Why couldn't signing the P2P be a term in the deal?  It's already on the FFL01's books.  
Now if that changed to FFL03, I assume it would still be the same. 
As I understand it, FFL03 doesn't authorize a private citizen to FFL 03 across state lines anyway, just 03 to 03, right?


Yes and yes


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I guess the $64,000 question is can you get a C&R FFL, go to a FFL dealer's licensed place of business in, say, Montana for instance, and buy a C&R eligible handgun (say a 1920s era S&W revolver in some obscure caliber for instance) on your C&R FFL, without a NJ Pistol Permit, take possession in Montana over the counter, presenting your federal C&R FFL, and logging it into your bound book, without any NJ pistol purchase permit being present or filled out, without violating any Federal laws. 

It would seem that you can.  But has anyone confirmed this?

How would NJ law apply there?  It would seem to be the same as buying a blackpowder handgun in PA.  No federal law preventing it, no NJ state law applying, so the acquisition is legal.  NJ state law on acquisition doesn't apply outside of NJ's borders.  Just (in that case) Montana, and Federal law.

The Montana dealer can't sell an ordinary NJ resident a pistol in Montana.  Federal law bars an unlicensed person purchasing and receiving a handgun from a dealer outside of their state of residence.  But the question of whether a dealer in Montana can sell a C&R handgun to a NJ resident, face to face at the dealer's premises in Montana, with a C&R FFL - which allows them to receive it and log it into their bound book (subject to Federal ATF inspection) - that's the question. 

Looking for an answer to that one.  If no federal law bars that sale and transfer, then it would appear the answer would be yes.

Does anyone know for certain?

 

And I'm not talking about what anyone thinks might be the case - does anyone actually know?  Actually did it, or was told by someone in authority that would be permitted?

 

Federally you are fine whether it is a dealer or individual if you have a FFL03 and it is a C&R. The question becomes bringing it back to NJ. As a non resident of NJ you can buy handguns and bring them with you when you move to NJ if they are NJ Legal. You should be able to do the same with FFL03, but the new law clearly says Pistol Permit is still needed. Longguns there is zero issues.

 

 

To correct an eroneous statement made by someone in another thread buying a antique longgun is perfectly legal inside and outside of NJ without a FID or NICS. Somehow though they cant be shipped to your door.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, capt14k said:

As a non resident of NJ you can buy handguns and bring them with you if they are NJ Legal. You should be able to do the same but the new law clearly says Pistol Permit is still needed. 

 

I was looking into this over a year ago because I wanted some 1917 revolvers.  Don't think this has ever not been the case.  

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I was looking into this over a year ago because I wanted some 1917 revolvers.  Don't think this has ever not been the case.  

 Not sure what you mean?

 

I think I figured it out. My bad. I meant the same should be for FFL03 who is a resident of NJ.

 

Yes you have always been able to bring your legally purchased hanguns as a resident of another state to NJ when you move to NJ. No paperwork or registration needed.

 

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6 minutes ago, capt14k said:

 Not sure what you mean?

 

I think I figured it out. My bad. I meant the same should be for FFL03 who is a resident of NJ.

 

Yes you have always been able to bring your legally purchased hanguns as a resident of another state to NJ when you move to NJ. No paperwork or registration needed.

 

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Sorry, I may not have been clear enough. I meant the pistol permit still needed part.  

I wanted a Colt and S&W 1917 revolver, but wasn't sure if perhaps I could avoid the hassles to friends, and hassles with expirations of P2P if I didn't find one to my liking, if I had an FFL03.

But there has seemingly always been a requirement for NJ residents to have P2P. That's not new.  

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24 minutes ago, capt14k said:

 


Federally you are fine whether it is a dealer or individual if you have a FFL03 and it is a C&R. The question becomes bringing it back to NJ. As a non resident of NJ you can buy handguns and bring them with you if they are NJ Legal. You should be able to do the same but the new law clearly says Pistol Permit is still needed. Longguns there is zero issues.


To correct an eroneous statement made by someone in another thread buying a antique longgun is perfectly legal inside and outside of NJ without a FID or NICS. Somehow though they cant be shipped to your door.


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A pistol permit is needed to acquire a pistol in New Jersey.  If you acquired it legally outside of NJ, then the acquisition is not in New Jersey and would seem to not be subject to NJ law or NJ paperwork requirements.  A pistol permit has nothing to do with possessing a pistol you already own.

After purchasing under a C&R license in person out of state, all that would seem to be left is possession and transport from the point that you re-enter NJ to your house in NJ.

You could transport it back to your house (and through the NJ portion) because you are allowed to transport a handgun from place of acquisition to home under NJ exemptions.

You could possess it enroute and then at home through exemptions, like any other firearm you own.

The only question would be whether a C&R FFL would allow you to purchase, outside of your residence state, a handgun, without a federal requirement that your resident state's paperwork be done at point of sale in another state.  I don't see any requirement.  There might be...and was wondering if anyone knew.

NJ has no power to require you to fill out a form in, say, Montana.  NJ can't jail you for not filing out a NJ form permitting activity not in NJ which is allowed in Montana.

The only reason people fill out NJ Certificates of Eligibility when purchasing long guns from dealers outside of NJ is that federal law requires dealers to comply with the law of the state they are doing business in, and the residence state of the purchaser (for us, NJ).  Federal requirement, not NJ requirement.  So the NJ form is in that case federally required.  NJ has no jurisdiction over that sale.  NJ can't put you in jail if you don't fill out the form when buying outside of NJ - the ATF could get the dealer in trouble under federal law if the dealer didn't do it.  And few dealers even bother, because it doesn't appear the ATF cares about NJ forms anyhow.  Even Wal Mart in PA doesn't care about NJ forms.

Remember the NJ Pistol Purchase permit only applies when purchasing pistols in NJ.  Doesn't have anything to do with possessing one in NJ which you already owned or acquired.  Since the Gun Control Act of 1968, you cannot legally purchase a pistol in any other state than your residence state, which means your home state is the only place you can buy one, and your home state is thus free to put whatever rules and paperwork requirements it wants which you can't escape by going out of state.  C&R FFL would appear to be a way to get out from under that and open you to a 50 state market -- in exchange for direct oversight, regulation, inspection, record keeping and enforcement by the ATF under a federal license.

I say all the above as "appears to be" because I don't know.  I don't know if it really is legal or if the ATF has regulations disallowing this.  I'm wondering if anyone can actually confirm it by experience or having been told by someone having some sort of authority.

 

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A pistol permit is needed to acquire a pistol in New Jersey.  If you acquired it legally outside of NJ, then the acquisition is not in New Jersey and would seem to not be subject to NJ law or NJ paperwork requirements.  A pistol permit has nothing to do with possessing a pistol you already own.
After purchasing under a C&R license in person out of state, all that would seem to be left is possession and transport from the point that you re-enter NJ to your house in NJ.
You could transport it from back to your house (and through the NJ portion) because you are allowed to transport a handgun from place of acquisition to home under NJ exemptions.
You could possess it enroute and then at home through exemptions, like any other firearm you own.
The only question would be whether a C&R FFL would allow you to purchase, outside of your residence state, a handgun, without a federal requirement that your resident state's paperwork be done at point of sale in another state.  I don't see any requirement.  There might be...and was wondering if anyone knew.
NJ has no power to require you to fill out a form in, say, Montana.  NJ can't jail you for not filing out a NJ form permitting activity not in NJ which is allowed in Montana.
The only reason people fill out NJ Certificates of Eligibility when purchasing long guns from dealers outside of NJ is that federal law requires dealers to comply with the law of the state they are doing business in, and the residence state of the purchaser (for us, NJ).  Federal requirement, not NJ requirement.  So the NJ form is in that case federally required.  NJ has no jurisdiction over that sale.  NJ can't put you in jail if you don't fill out the form when buying outside of NJ - the ATF could get the dealer in trouble under federal law if the dealer didn't do it.  And few dealers even bother, because it doesn't appear the ATF cares about NJ forms anyhow.  Even Wal Mart in PA doesn't care about NJ forms.
Remember the NJ Pistol Purchase permit only applies when purchasing pistols in NJ.  Doesn't have anything to do with possessing one in NJ which you already owned or acquired.  Since the Gun Control Act of 1968, you cannot legally purchase a pistol in any other state than your residence state, which means your home state is the only place you can buy one, and your home state is thus free to put whatever rules and paperwork requirements it wants which you can't escape by going out of state.  C&R FFL would appear to be a way to get out from under that and open you to a 50 state market -- in exchange for direct oversight, regulation, inspection, record keeping and enforcement by the ATF under a federal license.
I say all the above as "appears to be" because I don't know.  I don't know if it really is legal or if the ATF has regulations disallowing this.  I'm wondering if anyone can actually confirm it by experience or having been told by someone having some sort of authority.
 


I think I agree. If dual resident is exempt so should FFL03 when purchasing FTF in another state. Only if shipped to NJ would PTP come into play. So I would say yes I can use my FFL03 to buy a handgun in PA from my friend who is also a FFL03.

http://www.njiat.com/media/Out-Of-State%20Purchase--dual%20residency.pdf


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Sorry, I may not have been clear enough. I meant the pistol permit still needed part.  

I wanted a Colt and S&W 1917 revolver, but wasn't sure if perhaps I could avoid the hassles to friends, and hassles with expirations of P2P if I didn't find one to my liking, if I had an FFL03.

But there has seemingly always been a requirement for NJ residents to have P2P. That's not new.  

 

Yes the P2P has been around for awhile, but reading through the new law I think out of state a NJ FFL03 is governed by Federal law. So you should be able to purchase and bring back just as a dual resident can.

 

 

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I wonder which NJ Dem donor is a collector? Between the clear recognition of FFL03 and over 10 round exemption for certain rare rifles it's almost as if the law was written to protect someone's interests.


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10 minutes ago, capt14k said:

I wonder which NJ Dem donor is a collector? Between the clear recognition of FFL03 and over 10 round exemption for certain rare rifles it's almost as if the law was written to protect someone's interests.


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That is a really good question.  Supposedly, officially, anecdotally, we have been told over and over again that C&R licenses don't do anything for you in NJ, aren't worth getting, aren't recognized...and yet the license is given deference in one form or another in most of the gun laws NJ has enacted in the past decade.

If the license is worthless in NJ, why is it repeatedly respected by the legislature as an exemption from many of the laws they enact?  

That is a really good observation - someone in the legislature with some political power must be a collector.

The real question is what is worse?  Having to make several trips to your local police department and have them look at you funny while you fill out forms and ask politely for permission for a precious purchase permit that expires before you can even buy what you want, and wonder if you are going to get fired when they call your employer and tell your boss that you are buying a handgun, OR get a federal license and wonder when the ATF will demand an inspection, and wonder if NJ is going to misinterpret the law and arrest you?  I don't know which is worse...

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That is a really good question.  Supposedly, officially, anecdotally, we have been told over and over again that C&R licenses don't do anything for you in NJ, aren't worth getting, aren't recognized...and yet the license is given deference in one form or another in most of the gun laws NJ has enacted in the past decade.

If the license is worthless in NJ, why is it repeatedly respected by the legislature as an exemption from many of the laws they enact?  

That is a really good observation - someone in the legislature with some political power must be a collector.

The real question is what is worse?  Having to make several trips to your local police department and have them look at you funny while you fill out forms and ask politely for permission for a precious purchase permit that expires before you can even buy what you want, and wonder if you are going to get fired when they call your employer and tell your boss that you are buying a handgun, OR get a federal license and wonder when the ATF will demand an inspection, and wonder if NJ is going to misinterpret the law and arrest you?  I don't know which is worse...

 

ATF can not demand a physical inspection. They only inspect books and this can be done at their office or neutral location. They can only inspect house aka actual firearms with warrant.

 

 

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6 hours ago, capt14k said:

 


Nope not a stubbling block at all. You just said NICS is always required and you cant buy handgun in another state when the topic was about FFL03. I will go with my own interpretation of the law.


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One am moving to PA. Two FFL03 I will make full use of in the meantime. Don't need anymore handguns currently. Focus is on rare rifles.


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No you can't easily verify FFL03 like FFL01


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10 hours ago, GRIZ said:

I'm not talking about buying with a FFL03.  I'm talking about the majority of people who don't have one.  Do what you want and the other 03 agrees with outside of NJ.  Outside of NJ you are only subject to Federal and state laws of the state you're in.

I don't think the "ONLY IN NJ" on the newer P2Ps was added as a stumbling block for 03s.  The newer forms have been put for well over a year.

Reread my post.  I never said a NICS was required for a 03.  I said being they require NICS I can't see why anyone can't buy a handgun in any state.

The conversation is pertinent as we are discussing what priveleges a 03 gives you.

You were the one talking about a ftf sale out of state and having them fill out a NJ P2P.

 You can go with whatever interpretation of the law you want.  I already said that.  Do what you and out of state 03 agree to...within the law.

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Reread my post.  I never said a NICS was required for a 03.  I said being they require NICS I can't see why anyone can't buy a handgun in any state. The conversation is pertinent as we are discussing what priveleges a 03 gives you.

You were the one talking about a ftf sale out of state and having them fill out a NJ P2P.

 You can go with whatever interpretation of the law you want.  I already said that.  Do what you and out of state 03 agree to...within the law.

 

I was debating about mailing it in. I changed my position on needing PTP while physically out of state. 

NICS isn't required in every state if certain other variables are met such as having a CCW.

 

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Say one post, go to AC, and 30 posts go up overnight... hope nobody got bent out of shape from my original post. Was going to post a reply, but knew I was going to hit traffic, and then kind of forgot. Apologies if any of this was posted before (I did see a spot or two already brought up).

Personally, I view the outside of NJ part a non-issue. The FFL 03 allows you to purchase outside of your state (no NICS, no 4473... on C&R firearms; says firearms specifically, so pistols included), but state laws must be followed. NJ doesn’t have jurisdiction in PA, for example. And it isn’t a carry license, so transportation laws must be followed.

If a pistol purchased legally outside of NJ needs a permit, then all pistols owned by people moving in should be placed on a permit. Or purchasing a blackpowder or BB pistol outside of NJ, which is legal, would then need one. From how I read it, that isn’t illegal... but you must follow handgun transportation laws once back in NJ.

So I would say yes I can use my FFL03 to buy a handgun in PA from my friend who is also a FFL03.


Why does it have to be a friend? And why only a FFL 03? Neither are a restriction by Federal law.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/whom-may-unlicensed-person-transfer-firearms-under-gca

Per that, intrastate transfers have a base... but you must follow your state’s law (NJ). But then read down towards the bottom... as long as it is a C&R, a FFL 03 can receive from an out of state individual (I would think a non-NICS/4473 from a FFL 01, as well... but didn’t look that far into it; but if not, how does AIM Surplus and other sources just send firearms to people’s homes in free states). Just confirm the sellers info, and put it in your book.

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Say one post, go to AC, and 30 posts go up overnight... hope nobody got bent out of shape from my original post. Was going to post a reply, but knew I was going to hit traffic, and then kind of forgot. Apologies if any of this was posted before (I did see a spot or two already brought up).

Personally, I view the outside of NJ part a non-issue. The FFL 03 allows you to purchase outside of your state (no NICS, no 4473... on C&R firearms; says firearms specifically, so pistols included), but state laws must be followed. NJ doesn’t have jurisdiction in PA, for example. And it isn’t a carry license, so transportation laws must be followed.

If a pistol purchased legally outside of NJ needs a permit, then all pistols owned by people moving in should be placed on a permit. Or purchasing a blackpowder or BB pistol outside of NJ, which is legal, would then need one. From how I read it, that isn’t illegal... but you must follow handgun transportation laws once back in NJ.




Why does it have to be a friend? And why only a FFL 03? Neither are a restriction by Federal law.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/whom-may-unlicensed-person-transfer-firearms-under-gca

Per that, intrastate transfers have a base... but you must follow your state’s law (NJ). But then read down towards the bottom... as long as it is a C&R, a FFL 03 can receive from an out of state individual (I would think a non-NICS/4473 from a FFL 01, as well... but didn’t look that far into it; but if not, how does AIM Surplus and other sources just send firearms to people’s homes in free states). Just confirm the sellers info, and put it in your book.
Doesn't have to be a friend or 03 out of state, was just thinking of an example how I can now go to his house and buy from his collection legally and bring back with me.

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15 hours ago, capt14k said:

 

NICS isn't required in every state if certain other variables are met such as having a CCW.

 

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Other variables are the exception not the rule.  There are all kinds of exceptions.

I said, "Being that NICS is requires everywhere I can't see why one can't buy a handgun in another state".

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On 6/29/2018 at 9:48 PM, kman said:

That is a really good question.  Supposedly, officially, anecdotally, we have been told over and over again that C&R licenses don't do anything for you in NJ, aren't worth getting, aren't recognized...and yet the license is given deference in one form or another in most of the gun laws NJ has enacted in the past decade.

If the license is worthless in NJ, why is it repeatedly respected by the legislature as an exemption from many of the laws they enact?  

That is a really good observation - someone in the legislature with some political power must be a collector.

The real question is what is worse?  Having to make several trips to your local police department and have them look at you funny while you fill out forms and ask politely for permission for a precious purchase permit that expires before you can even buy what you want, and wonder if you are going to get fired when they call your employer and tell your boss that you are buying a handgun, OR get a federal license and wonder when the ATF will demand an inspection, and wonder if NJ is going to misinterpret the law and arrest you?  I don't know which is worse...

The wording for C&R licenses is in this bill (and the OGAM bill) because our anti gun politicians are mindless dolts. They don't write these bills, they get them prewritten from anti gun groups like Bloomberg's clan and tweak them to fit NJ. Most of them probably don't know what a C&R license is and don't realize they are creating a "loop hole" - if they did they would have stripped the C&R language out.

 

NJ is notorious for recognizing gun laws as they see fit. They don't recognize antiques even though there is a provision in the law that says they are not firearms. They don't recognize the C&R exemption from OGAM. And I would be surprised if they recognize the C&R exemption for FTF sales. NJ has arrested people in the past for using (properly) a C&R license and I don't think having an 03 license is going to work out the way some people here are thinking it will - I hope I'm wrong.

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The wording for C&R licenses is in this bill (and the OGAM bill) because our anti gun politicians are mindless dolts. They don't write these bills, they get them prewritten from anti gun groups like Bloomberg's clan and tweak them to fit NJ. Most of them probably don't know what a C&R license is and don't realize they are creating a "loop hole" - if they did they would have stripped the C&R language out.  

NJ is notorious for recognizing gun laws as they see fit. They don't recognize antiques even though there is a provision in the law that says they are not firearms. They don't recognize the C&R exemption from OGAM. And I would be surprised if they recognize the C&R exemption for FTF sales. NJ has arrested people in the past for using (properly) a C&R license and I don't think having an 03 license is going to work out the way some people here are thinking it will - I hope I'm wrong.

 

NJ doesnt recognize Antique Handguns and Antique Longguns shipped directly to your house. Pickup in or out of state and bring home no paperwork or FID needed for antique Long gun. 

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Could you buy from a ffl01 without nics paperwork?

Yes with FFL03 if you are buying C&R firearm or in half the states if you are a resident and have a CCW License. 

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Yes with FFL03 if you are buying C&R firearm or in half the states if you are a resident and have a CCW License. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


And to make it clearer... not in NJ. Still have to go through the same steps as if you didn’t have the FFL 03.

But being you do a 4473 and NICS, you don’t need to put it in your book (unless you use your FFL 03 to dispose of it; forget how it is written in, but if you dispose of previously owned C&R firearms, you put something to the affect of acquired prior to license issued).

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And to make it clearer... not in NJ. Still have to go through the same steps as if you didn’t have the FFL 03.

But being you do a 4473 and NICS, you don’t need to put it in your book (unless you use your FFL 03 to dispose of it; forget how it is written in, but if you dispose of previously owned C&R firearms, you put something to the affect of acquired prior to license issued).
Not according to the new law if you are buying from another FFL03 and it is C&R and you have a PTP no FFL01 or NICS needed starting October 1

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